Should "Praise to the Man" stay in the new hymnal?


dsnell
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Obviously, the average latter day saint does not view this song as worshiping Joseph Smith in any way shape or form on par with worshiping deity. A song of praise is nothing more than that - a song of praise. It's not like we pray to Joseph smith or anything like that. However, I can concede that it may cause people who aren't familiar with our doctrine some strife - even if I don't really understand it. 

I would like some perspective from @anatess2 on the following comparison. When I first encountered Catholics on my mission praying to the Virgin Mary and other Patron Saints, I found it strange to say the least, and blasphemous at worst. I mean, if there is a place to draw the line of worship, it would seem to me it would be at praying to a being other than god, no? Anyhow, some of my Catholic associates have told me that these prayers to Mary and other Saints is no different than praying for a friend who is sick and has nothing to do with worshiping them. I, personally, still find it odd because it seems praying -for- and praying -to- are very different things to me. If you don't mind sharing your take on this anatess, I'd appreciate it.

That being said I think we should do away with a perfectly good hymn no more than I think Catholicism should give up there traditions. 

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I gotta tell you I really love Joseph Smith Jr. He's not that far off from Jesus Christ for me. The song is too good to get rid of. It was written by W.W. Phelps who threw JS in Liberty jail. The song seems to be Phelps way of righting a wrong. If I could I'd write Praise to the Man version 2.0 about Prophet Monson.

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1 hour ago, Tyme said:

I gotta tell you I really love Joseph Smith Jr. He's not that far off from Jesus Christ for me. The song is too good to get rid of. It was written by W.W. Phelps who threw JS in Liberty jail. The song seems to be Phelps way of righting a wrong. If I could I'd write Praise to the Man version 2.0 about Prophet Monson.

Both are heroes to me.

They deserve to be recognized for who they were and the sacrifices they made.

Can we just not do it in song form to the tune of “Praise to the Man?” Pick a tune, any other tune. Ohhhhh that melody. Drives me nuts.

Not sure how far the gap is between someone like Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, but I partly feel it’s inappropriate if not blasphemous to even contemplate it. 

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4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Both are heroes to me.

They deserve to be recognized for who they were and the sacrifices they made.

Can we just not do it in song form to the tune of “Praise to the Man?” Pick a tune, any other tune. Ohhhhh that melody. Drives me nuts.

Not sure how far the gap is between someone like Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, but I partly feel it’s inappropriate if not blasphemous to even contemplate it. 

It's canonized scripture...

3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated

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2 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

It's canonized scripture...

Even if Joseph Smith comes in 2nd place, it’s not as if Joseph Smith is just a few steps behind the Savior. A very wide divide would still exist between any man and the Savior. You understand how the the Atonement dwarfs any accomplishments anyone else has ever done in this life, right? Giving someone the 2nd place award is one thing, but saying they’re not far behind the Savior is another. 

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I love Joseph Smith.  He is the prophet of this dispensation.  He is my prophet.  I recognize him as an archangel.  

But he does not compare to Jesus Christ or even the Holy Ghost.  

And Joseph Smith declared that Michael / Adam is the highest ranking Archangel with Gabriel / Noah being second.

The Priesthood was first given to Adam, he obtained the first Presidency and held the Keys of it from generation to generation; he obtained it in the creation before the world was formed as in Gen: 1. 26, 28, he had Dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael the Archangel spoken of in <the> scriptures: Then to Noah who is Gabriel, he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood: he was called of God to this office and was the Father of all living in his day and to him was given the Dominion. These men held keys first on Earth and then in Heaven: The Priesthood is an everlasting principle and existed with God from Eternity and will to Eternity, without beginning of days or end of years The Keys have to be brought from Heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from Heaven it is by Adam’s Authority.  —  Joseph Smith Aug 8, 1839

I like what John Taylor did with D&C 135. But Michael / Adam is unique.  He was chosen to be our General in the pre-mortal existence.  He was instrumental in the Fall.  And he was the angel that strengthened Christ while in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Joseph Smith’s rank could be anywhere between 3-7.  But all the archangels are prototypical men Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, & Peter.  

There is some thought that Enoch is Raphael but I havent seen anything definitive.

Each one of the Archangels are spectacular.  They each have christ-like characteristics including humility.  I’m pretty sure that they are not jockeying for position.

Edited by mikbone
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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Even if Joseph Smith comes in 2nd place, it’s not as if Joseph Smith is just a few steps behind the Savior. A very wide divide would still exist between any man and the Savior. You understand how the the Atonement dwarfs any accomplishments anyone else has ever done in this life, right? Giving someone the 2nd place award is one thing, but saying they’re not far behind the Savior is another. 

Fair enough. I was most specifically referring to the part where you suggested to even contemplate a comparison is all but blasphemous by pointing out that we have a comparison right in our scripture canon. I agree that as a man, Joseph Smith, was no where near the perfection of Jesus Christ. Without the Atonement all would be lost. Yet, I am also not naive to the fact that without the gospel of Jesus Christ being restored that the priesthood keys necessary to bring about the work of salvation not only to those who would live in this dispensation, but those who weren't taught the gospel previously, would have undermined the plans God had made. If Joseph Smith had failed, I'm confident the Lord would have called another and made sure his work went forth, but Joseph did not fail to do his pretty major part. 

 

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On 11/27/2018 at 7:00 AM, dsnell said:

I think it's safe to say that "Praise to the Man" is one of the faster, catchier hymns in the hymnal, but considering it's lyrics, do you think it should remain in the new iteration of the hymnal coming out sometime in the future? I write for ThirdHour.org and was thinking about doing an article about people's opinions on this. What are your thoughts? I personally think it's a fantastic hymn, I love it, but I think it weirds people out that are new or unfamiliar with the Church. I feel like it borderline deifies Joseph Smith, misrepresents his role in our religion, and slightly deviates our focus from Christ to Joseph during sacrament meetings. But maybe I'm overthinking it and it's actually just a great song honoring a prophet. What are your thoughts? Here are the lyrics for reference:

 

If the new version of the hymn book includes this hymn, and you buy a your own copy, feel free to remove the page of this hymn. Problem solved.

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14 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Who says "mingling" these days anyways?

11 hours ago, clbent04 said:

“Shirk” is definely the more unusual verb.

You really aren't presenting yourself as a good specimen of your generation.  You need to get out more.  "former and latter" and now these words?  Really? 

What on earth are they teaching kids in school nowadays?  Did you even have a vocabulary lesson in your life?  How did you do on the verbal section of the SAT?

If it isn't in a movie nowadays, no one knows what any words mean.  I had a young friend who thought Shakespeare was as incomprehensible as a foreign language.  I tried teaching him.  But he didn't want to learn.  He was perfectly content just saying he didn't understand it.

Kids these days.  I've been having a whole lot of get off my lawn moments recently.

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2 hours ago, SilentOne said:

But what if the other side of the page has his favorite hymn?

"Joseph Smith's First Prayer"?  Or  "Saints, Behold How Great Jehovah?"  Was it? 

I thought it was "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief." (a couple pages later).

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6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

If the new version of the hymn book includes this hymn, and you buy a your own copy, feel free to remove the page of this hymn. Problem solved.

4 hours ago, SilentOne said:

But what if the other side of the page has his favorite hymn?

We all know he won't be using paper, so he can just hack the app and remove that hymn from his copy of the database (after every update).

Alternately, he can get the paper version and ... what do they call that? ... thinking hard ... modge podge a picture of [whatever he likes] over that side of the page.

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Did you even have a vocabulary lesson in your life? 

I was first concerned about @The Folk Prophet , but now you too, Carb? Don’t go senile on me.

How hard is it to not take things out of context, or partially quote someone to twist their words. Just read man. Just read.

There’s a difference between pointing out common usage and saying you don’t understand something. I was addressing the former.

If you want to continue saying “shirk” all day long, have at it buddy.

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3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I was first concerned about @The Folk Prophet , but now you too, Carb? Don’t go senile on me.

Too late.

Quote

How hard is it to not take things out of context, or partially quote someone to twist their words. Just read man. Just read.

I did.  Read on.

Quote

There’s a difference between pointing out common usage and saying you don’t understand something. I was addressing the former.

I said,"You need to get out more". These words really are common usage.  But many in your generation don't think it's common because all you know is the vocabulary of movies and TV.   If you just get outside that bubble, you'll realize that these words really are used quite often.  In fact, "former and latter" are used quite often in TV.  Why don't you think they're common?  Bad shows?  Change the channel, kiddo.

Quote

If you want to continue saying “shirk” all day long, have at it buddy.

I thank you for your permission.

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9 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

I was most specifically referring to the part where you suggested to even contemplate a comparison is all but blasphemous by pointing out that we have a comparison right in our scripture canon.

The purpose of Doctrine and Covenants 135 isn't to compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ.  It's wrong to suggest. The purpose is too highlight the many significant contributions he made to bring the gospel forth in this dispensation.

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13 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

Obviously, the average latter day saint does not view this song as worshiping Joseph Smith in any way shape or form on par with worshiping deity. A song of praise is nothing more than that - a song of praise. It's not like we pray to Joseph smith or anything like that. However, I can concede that it may cause people who aren't familiar with our doctrine some strife - even if I don't really understand it. 

I would like some perspective from @anatess2 on the following comparison. When I first encountered Catholics on my mission praying to the Virgin Mary and other Patron Saints, I found it strange to say the least, and blasphemous at worst. I mean, if there is a place to draw the line of worship, it would seem to me it would be at praying to a being other than god, no? Anyhow, some of my Catholic associates have told me that these prayers to Mary and other Saints is no different than praying for a friend who is sick and has nothing to do with worshiping them. I, personally, still find it odd because it seems praying -for- and praying -to- are very different things to me. If you don't mind sharing your take on this anatess, I'd appreciate it.

That being said I think we should do away with a perfectly good hymn no more than I think Catholicism should give up there traditions. 

Catholic prayers to Saints and to the Mother of Jesus are Prayers for Intercession.  It is the same concept as submitting your name to the Temple and having temple workers intercede and pray on your behalf, except the Saints and Mother Mary are on the other side of the veil so you can't just submit a piece of paper with your prayer request, rather, you talk to them through prayer and ask them to pray for you (the method of communicating to the other side of the veil in Catholic dogma is called prayer).  So, a prayer to the Saints or Mother Mary usually has, "Pray for us".  Now, in Catholic belief, Mary and the Saints are with Christ, therefore, they are in a unique position to actually have direct communication with Christ so that's why they believe they have the power to intercede on their behalf which is more powerful than just asking your friends to pray for you.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

The purpose of Doctrine and Covenants 135 isn't to compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ.  It's wrong to suggest. The purpose is too highlight the many significant contributions he made to bringing the gospel forth in this dispensation.

And now we've moved from clarifying a point to moving the goal posts.

You: It is blasphemous to compare Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith

Me: Actually, we have an account of such in our scriptures

You: Well a comparison might be okay, but realize that any comparison is extremely in favour of Jesus Christ

Me: I never said otherwise, merely pointed out that the act of comparing is not blashemous in and of itself - it's scripture.

You: My point is indefensible, let me move the goalpost from what the scripture says to my interpretation of the over-arching premise of the section.

I don't want to argue with you over this. We probably have more in common than not on it really. Obviously Joseph Smith pails in comparison to the promised Messiah. But to pail in comparison is still a comparison.

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5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Catholic prayers to Saints and to the Mother of Jesus are Prayers for Intercession.  It is the same concept as submitting your name to the Temple and having temple workers intercede and pray on your behalf, except the Saints and Mother Mary are on the other side of the veil so you can't just submit a piece of paper with your prayer request, rather, you talk to them through prayer and ask them to pray for you (the method of communicating to the other side of the veil in Catholic dogma is called prayer).  So, a prayer to the Saints or Mother Mary usually has, "Pray for us".  Now, in Catholic belief, Mary and the Saints are with Christ, therefore, they are in a unique position to actually have direct communication with Christ so that's why they believe they have the power to intercede on their behalf which is more powerful than just asking your friends to pray for you.

 

 

What are your thoughts on how that compares to the LDS singing Praise To The Man?

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1 minute ago, SpiritDragon said:

I don't want to argue with you over this. We probably have more in common than not on it really. Obviously Joseph Smith pails in comparison to the promised Messiah. But to pail in comparison is still a comparison.

I never said a comparison might be okay.  I was trying to speak to what I think your understanding is of Doctrine and Covenants 135.  Joseph Smith should never be compared to our Savior.

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On 11/26/2018 at 2:04 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Somewhere in a drawer, I have a first edition hymnbook.  I have to dig it out, because the original Praise to the Man had additional verses.  Something about murdering the priests of Ammon or something.   Gotta go refresh my memory.

Whoa - not priests of Ammon, priest of Baal!  And not Praise to the Man, but another hymn that dropped out of our books over the years.  Hymn 4a:

https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/66423-1919-lds-hymnbook/?do=findComment&amp;comment=1003503

 

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