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Should "Praise to the Man" stay in the new hymnal?

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Just now, SpiritDragon said:

What are your thoughts on how that compares to the LDS singing Praise To The Man?

Zero relation.

Praise to the Man is not asking Joseph Smith to intercede on our behalf or to even claim he is now with Christ.  Praise to the Man is nothing more than a hymn of adulation for Joseph's contribution to Christ's work and glory in bringing to pass the plan of salvation. 

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17 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I never said a comparison might be okay.  I was trying to speak to what I think your understanding is of Doctrine and Covenants 135.  Joseph Smith should never be compared to our Savior.

My apologies if I misapprehended your comment that appears to be a comparison admitting that Joseph Smith pails in comparison to the Saviour.

From my perspective the Lord is a knowable being that doesn't want to be so distant that a comparison is wrong. First of all comparisons are unavoidable. Secondly, other than the account in D%C 135, the scriptures are full of Christ Figures. Take Abraham and Isaac's sacrifice test as one glaring example. How can this not be seen as a comparison to the sacrifice of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ? 

Furthermore, if we are all trying to be Christ-like, how do we know how we are doing without comparisons? i mean if Praise to the Man is so offensive what about I'm Trying to be Like Jesus? When I was a missionary and we switched from discussions to Preach My Gospel, I found the Christlike attribute activity in the book a wonderful tool. It is an actual tool about comparing oneself to Jesus. What better way to work toward becoming like someone than comparing attributes and working on areas of weakness?

Do you think comparing to is the same as being equivalent to? Certainly no one is equivalent to Jesus' part in the Plan of Salvation. Shouldn't we all strive to measure up the best we can though?

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20 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

My apologies if I misapprehended your comment that appears to be a comparison admitting that Joseph Smith pails in comparison to the Saviour.

From my perspective the Lord is a knowable being that doesn't want to be so distant that a comparison is wrong. First of all comparisons are unavoidable. Secondly, other than the account in D%C 135, the scriptures are full of Christ Figures. Take Abraham and Isaac's sacrifice test as one glaring example. How can this not be seen as a comparison to the sacrifice of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ? 

Furthermore, if we are all trying to be Christ-like, how do we know how we are doing without comparisons? i mean if Praise to the Man is so offensive what about I'm Trying to be Like Jesus? When I was a missionary and we switched from discussions to Preach My Gospel, I found the Christlike attribute activity in the book a wonderful tool. It is an actual tool about comparing oneself to Jesus. What better way to work toward becoming like someone than comparing attributes and working on areas of weakness?

Do you think comparing to is the same as being equivalent to? Certainly no one is equivalent to Jesus' part in the Plan of Salvation. Shouldn't we all strive to measure up the best we can though?

We will never be equal to Jesus Christ. Having Christ as an example to follow is different from comparing ourselves to Him. There is no comparison. Christ is on a completely different level and always will be.  Saying "I'm trying to be like Jesus" should not translate to "How far away am I to becoming as good as Jesus is?"  That's not the goal.  Our paths to perfection and saying you want to become as good as Jesus is are two different things.

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Whoa - not priests of Ammon, priest of Baal!  And not Praise to the Man, but another hymn that dropped out of our books over the years.  Hymn 4a:

https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/66423-1919-lds-hymnbook/?do=findComment&comment=1003503

 

Notice that it was not "murdering the priests of Baal."  It was that the "priests of Baal" (metaphorically) murdered Joseph and Hyrum. 

Yes, the song basically called the sectarian ministers of the day "Priests of Baal."  And it blames them for the death of the Prophet.

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5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I tried teaching him.  But he didn't want to learn.  He was perfectly content just saying he didn't understand it.

This attitude has always been present, but today it seems to be almost ubiquitous. <--(I should probably use another word there that more people can understand without straining themselves. I'm just so inconsiderate.)

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6 minutes ago, Vort said:

This attitude has always been present, but today it seems to be almost ubiquitous. <--(I should probably use another word there that more people can understand without straining themselves. I'm just so inconsiderate.)

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17 minutes ago, Vort said:

This attitude has always been present, but today it seems to be almost ubiquitous. <--(I should probably use another word there that more people can understand without straining themselves. I'm just so inconsiderate.)

Hmm. Pervasive?

Omnipresent?  We are talking about religious things, after all.

Pedestrian is out for obvious reasons.

Oh!  Waitaminute!!!  Quotidian. YES!!! We HAVE A WINNER!!!

Edited by Carborendum

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12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Hmm. Pervasive?

Omnipresent?  We are talking about religious things, after all.

Pedestrian is out for obvious reasons.

Oh!  Waitaminute!!!  Quotidian. YES!!! We HAVE A WINNER!!!

Hats off to you mate.  We have reached a level of @zilism previously thought impossible.

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9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Hats off to you mate.  We have reached a level of @zilism previously thought impossible.

You're forgetting my performance in this thread:

https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/64612-the-out-word-jag-thread/

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On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 1:07 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

Should we also de-canonize D&C 135?

IMHO our God is big enough not to get His nose out of joint just because, every now and again, we say (or even sing!) that a particular prophet did a pretty good job.

And frankly, if anything the modern Church probably downplays the significance of Joseph Smith’s life and ministry; as well as his role as the head of our dispensation.  There are already several restorationist churches that throw Brother Joseph down the memory hole, and we don’t need to be trying to occupy that theological niche. 

In what ways do you think the church downplays the significance of Joseph Smith?  Just wondering.

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44 minutes ago, vitaminwater120 said:

In what ways do you think the church downplays the significance of Joseph Smith?  Just wondering.

Restorationist churches, not "our" church.  Church of Christ comes to mind.

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Heck yes it stays- because it's a cool song. One of my favorite's, probably because I was named after the prophet.  

Also, it fulfills prophecy.  Joseph's name has to be known for good and evil.  This song helps fulfill the "good" part of that prophecy.  

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8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

We will never be equal to Jesus Christ. Having Christ as an example to follow is different from comparing ourselves to Him. There is no comparison. Christ is on a completely different level and always will be.  Saying "I'm trying to be like Jesus" should not translate to "How far away am I to becoming as good as Jesus is?"  That's not the goal.  Our paths to perfection and saying you want to become as good as Jesus is are two different things.

I never said we would be equal to Jesus. I asked you to clarify your definitions so the dialogue has a chance of being productive. Do you see making a comparison as only relating to that which is equal. I'm saying, from my perspective simply saying we don't compare, is in actuality still a comparison. It's like saying that $1.00 does not compare to $1000000.00 which can be said, but it's hyperbole. $1.00 can actually be compared in various terms such as buying power, difficulty to earn and so on.

At the moment I'm getting the idea that you see comparing things to mean they are equal or near equal. I am operating on defining the term as simply taking two separate items, individuals, characteristics and assessing qualities against each other. Either definition is okay according to Merriam Webster.

Are you suggesting there can be no means of measuring how we are doing against the standard of perfection the Lord Himself has comanded us to attain? Or are you simply stating that no one can ever replace the position the Saviour has? The first requires comparison. He set the example of perfection and we follow. If we see we are falling short (requires comparison) we need to repent and correct the path we follow. Replacing the position the Saviour holds in the plan doesn't require comparison, just pride to believe it could be done - we agree it can't.

Quote

How far away am I to becoming as good as Jesus is?"  That's not the goal.

The goal isn't to be like Jesus? What are the commands to, "come follow me" and, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as I... am perfect" if not challenges to do just that - be like Jesus. Be as good as Jesus, as compassionate as Jesus, as loving, caring, hardworking, willing to sacrifice as the Saviour. I mean you're welcome to do as you please, but I think it serves me well to indeed ask how in line is my life with the example set by the Christ? It is important to note that I don't believe anyone can achieve such on their own, but I do believe it can be done with God's help. Isn't that what the Atonement is all about? It is to help us to overcome sin, death and become purified. No imperfection can dwell in the presence of God, I feel like you are saying that exaltation isn't possible. That's not a faith I would want to be part of.

Edited by SpiritDragon

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3 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

The goal isn't to be like Jesus?  

Jesus Christ is our ultimate example of becoming perfect. I wasn’t arguing if we should use Him as an example. 

Going back to what started this back and forth in the first place, there’s a subtle yet important distinction in saying you follow Jesus as an example towards your own perfection versus saying you want to be as good as Jesus is. Saying the latter suggests you will achieve a similar status of glory and station as the Savior has. That is why it’s wrong. Let all glory be to God, for it is His and His alone.

Being perfect like Jesus is a righteous desire. And I commend you for that. 

The main statement I took issue with was when @Tyme said it’s his opinion that Joseph Smith is not far off from the Savior, and your subsequent post attempting to validate that statement with Doctrine and Covenants 135. 

You want to follow Jesus Christ, I want to follow Jesus Christ, it’s all good brother (or sister?). 

Like I said earlier, Joseph Smith is one of my heroes whom I look up to and respect. For me, it’s not only important to stand up for what he is, but also for what he isn’t. I know in my heart of hearts that Joseph Smith would be cringing if he heard members of the Church saying he was just a couple steps away from being as good as the Savior. Joseph Smith had one of the most profound testimonies of the Savior, and one of the closest relationships to the Him that anyone has ever had in this life. He of all people would impress upon us he was but a man, and all praise and glory be to God.

Edited by clbent04

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3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Jesus Christ is our ultimate example to becoming perfect. I wasn’t arguing if we should use Him as our example. 

Going back to what started this back and forth in the first place, there’s a subtle yet important distinction in saying you follow Jesus as an example towards your own perfection versus saying you want to be as good as Jesus is. Saying you the latter suggests you will achieve a similar status of glory and station as the Savior has. That is why it’s wrong. Let all glory be to God, for it is His and His alone.

Being perfect like Jesus is a righteous desire. And I commend you for that. 

The main statement I took issue with was when @Tyme said it’s his opinion that Joseph Smith is not far off from the Savior, and you’re subsequent post attempting to validate that statement with Doctine and Covenants 135. 

You want to follow Jesus Christ, I want to follow Jesus Christ, it’s all good brother (or sister?). 

Like I said earlier, Joseph Smith is one of my heroes whom I look up to and respect. For me, it’s not only important to stand up for what he is, but also for what he isn’t. I know in my heart of hearts that Joseph Smith would be cringing if he heard members of the Church saying he was just a couple steps away from being as good as the Savior. Joseph Smith had one of the most profound testimonies of the Savior, and one of the closest relationships to the Him that anyone has ever had in this life. He of all people would impress upon us he was but a man, and all praise and glory be to God.

I appreciate that it appears you are seeking understanding and common ground and going back through the comments to see how we ended up here. I should have communicated more clearly in the first place when I was referring to D&C 135 that I was specifically pointing out that it's not blasphemous to compare people to the Lord. I can see how if you thought I was saying that Joseph was nearly on par with Jesus that could cause issues. It helps me understand your resistance to what I have perceived as a simple comparison all along.

I can let @Tyme speak for himself as to what he meant with his comments. I believe he was referring to Joseph in the hereafter and not during mortality. My understanding of LDS theology is that we do actually believe in deification and if Joseph isn't a candidate, quite frankly the rest of us are hooped. In that way I don't think Tyme mispoke either in suggesting that Joseph in the eternal sense will be exalted and honoured as a god in his own right. He certainly won't replace the Saviour, he will continue to worship and honour Him forever, but he will be a joint-heir with Christ sharing all the Father hath, worlds without end and eternal glory. He will in a very real sense be mingling with gods and more equivalent to our most honoured and revered older brother then some may think.

As for now, I'm not sure. It's speculation that Joseph Smith has been resurrected just as it is speculation he is still in the spirit world. We simply don't know. It would seem more likely that only those who died before the time of our Lord's mortal ministry would have gone on to receive bodies, but we know Moroni has been resurrected and he lived 400 years after Jesus so who knows.

Let's go forth and try to be like Jesus. Thanks brother, and yes I'm a brother, too.

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16 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

when I was referring to D&C 135 that I was specifically pointing out that it's not blasphemous to compare people to the Lord. I can see how if you thought I was saying that Joseph was nearly on par with Jesus that could cause issues. It helps me understand your resistance to what I have perceived as a simple comparison all along.

Yes, glad we can come to some understanding, and thanks for seeing my point of view. I understand a little better where you’re coming from. You’re really just saying you want to use the Savior as an example to gauge your own progress towards perfection. I don’t think that’s blasphemous.

16 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

I can let @Tyme speak for himself as to what he meant with his comments. I believe he was referring to Joseph in the hereafter and not during mortality. My understanding of LDS theology is that we do actually believe in deification and if Joseph isn't a candidate, quite frankly the rest of us are hooped. In that way I don't think Tyme mispoke either in suggesting that Joseph in the eternal sense will be exalted and honoured as a god in his own right. He certainly won't replace the Saviour, he will continue to worship and honour Him forever, but he will be a joint-heir with Christ sharing all the Father hath, worlds without end and eternal glory. He will in a very real sense be mingling with gods and more equivalent to our most honoured and revered older brother then some may think.

I think we may just state things differently while trying to say the same thing. As far as what you wrote up above, I would further qualify it by saying that once Joseph becomes a god (as it’s my opinion that it’s not if but when), he will still never be equal to Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith’s obtaining godhood will never change his master to servant relationship with the Savior, nor will he ever elevate himself to the status of Jesus Christ. In the eternities both may be gods, but there is an eternal order to the Son giving glory to the Father, and us giving glory to them.

Edited by clbent04

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"Praise to the Man" should stay in the hymn book. We should honor the mortal man named Joseph Smith who was instrumental in bringing the Church of Jesus Christ back to the earth. 

There are songs of honor.... not worship..... honor.

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Personally I have a hard time in the LDS community using the word hymnal.  My mom was totally into music since she was little and has had numerous ward and stake music callings.  She always told me that LDS use hymnbook while the protestant community uses the word hymnal.  When I google hymnal, it shows up relating to LDS from non LDS sources.  LDS sources say hymnbook.  Others don't have to agree with.  It's just my thing.

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