Exaltation And Sons of Perdition: How Many?


Stargater53
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Many latter-day saints have asked about these things, and lately I have wondered about it too. 

First, the Sons of Perdition. A lot of conflicting opinions and quotations. Joseph Smith inferred that to become a Son of Perdition, one would have to essentially reach a state of exaltation and then blow it. Of seeing the sunlight coming through the window and then swearing it wasn't there! But on another occasion he said that many apostates of the church would be sons of perdition, so the quotations seem to be at odds with one another. Since most apostates certainly never reached a state where they would otherwise have reached a state of having their calling and election made sure, could they then be strong candidates for being Sons of Perdition?

The next question is even more tricky and it treads on the above. Many of our great prophets at Conference say something that makes me wonder. We are, they say, lucky, greatly privileged, to be living in our day, and some intimate we might very well be the generation that will welcome the returning Messiah. But let's look at the facts:

First, most people who have been born into mortality end up dying as infants! This means all of these are guaranteed exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. They were born, then died, meaning they don't have to undergo the pains of mortality, right?!

Then we have those born into mortality during the Millennium. They will live to the age of a hundred, then they will be "twinkled" into a resurrected body of flesh and bones. And because there is no infant mortality, the population will soar during that time. We might even say that most of the people ever born into mortality and lived will be born in the Millennium. Are you beginning to see my point? Based on sheer numbers, it appears that most of God's children ever to be born will gain the Celestial Kingdom! The only ones in the Millennium who will not are those who are deceived by Satan in the last few years and who attack the Holy City in a reboot of the battle of Gog and Magog! And, we're told, their numbers will be as the sand upon the sea shore. In other words, a huge number at the end will be, what? Sons of Perdition?? And whereas the original battle of Gog and Magog at the beginning of the Millennium will be against the city of Jerusalem, I suspect the second battle of Gog and Magog will be against the Holy City of the New Jerusalem! And the Lord will make short work of them as He will Celestialize the entire planet.

So what are your thoughts? Are we who are born in this day not quite as good as the majority of people who are born  to inherit the Celestial Kingdom? And will most of the people ever to be born worthy of exaltation without the need of being tested? 

Let me know! And is Gene Simmons a son of perdition??

 

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56 minutes ago, Stargater53 said:

First, the Sons of Perdition. A lot of conflicting opinions and quotations. Joseph Smith inferred that to become a Son of Perdition, one would have to essentially reach a state of exaltation and then blow it. Of seeing the sunlight coming through the window and then swearing it wasn't there! But on another occasion he said that many apostates of the church would be sons of perdition, so the quotations seem to be at odds with one another. Since most apostates certainly never reached a state where they would otherwise have reached a state of having their calling and election made sure, could they then be strong candidates for being Sons of Perdition?

I see no conflict.  I think the prophet's condemnation of apostates was predictive, not descriptive.

56 minutes ago, Stargater53 said:

So what are your thoughts? Are we who are born in this day not quite as good as the majority of people who are born  to inherit the Celestial Kingdom? And will most of the people ever to be born worthy of exaltation without the need of being tested? 

My thought is that each person will be tried, tested, and taught in the way that person needs - from eternity to eternity until they attain the highest glory they are willing to receive.  As far as I'm concerned, if some people don't need much of mortality, or need their mortality in the millennium, we should be happy for them, and seek to learn from them, if given the chance.

Edited by zil
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Some basic math leads to the conclusion that more than 25 billion of our brothers and sisters qualified for the Celestial Kingdom in our premortal life.  I’m with Zil in the sense that I think that fact should be celebrated.  It doesn’t denigrate mortality and it certainly doesn’t diminish its importance for those of us who are to be tried and tested here. 

It clearly demonstrates that our premortal life was much more involved than how many often describe it.  When we consider that a third of our bothers and sisters were forever disqualified from mortality and exaltation by their premortal choices and billions of our brothers and sisters qualified for exaltation in the premortal world, it makes plain the importance of our premortal life—it was determinative for so many.

For those of us in mortality, especially those of us with the Gospel, as the scriptures remind us, this is the time for us to work out our salvation.  Despite that,  no doubt there may be those that might,  upon understanding these facts, view mortality as a type of spiritual repitrage or be troubled by the fact that for every member of the restored Church there are more than 1000 exalted brothers and sisters as a result of our premortal existence.

 

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30 minutes ago, zil said:

I see no conflict.  I don't think the prophet's condemnation of apostates was predictive, not descriptive.

Not predictive, but comprehensive. He was saying that overall, many apostates (generally) will be sons of perdition. Whether he was speaking doctrinally or whether he'd just hit a low spot and was angry, I know not; however, it has been widely quoted. “You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance.” (TPJS, p. 358). Said Joseph Fielding Smith, “before a man can sink to this bitterness of soul, he must first know and understand the truth with a clearness of vision wherein there is no doubt.” (Doctrine of Salvation 1:49)

I doubt many apostates could reach that level of knowledge, so this is a bit of a contradiction. Still, Joseph Smith stated that a man "has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.” (TPJS, p.358) And President Spencer Kimball said, “The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.123)

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Stargater53 said:

Not predictive, but comprehensive. He was saying that overall, many apostates (generally) will be sons of perdition. Whether he was speaking doctrinally or whether he'd just hit a low spot and was angry, I know not; however, it has been widely quoted. “You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance.” (TPJS, p. 358). Said Joseph Fielding Smith, “before a man can sink to this bitterness of soul, he must first know and understand the truth with a clearness of vision wherein there is no doubt.” (Doctrine of Salvation 1:49)

I doubt many apostates could reach that level of knowledge, so this is a bit of a contradiction. Still, Joseph Smith stated that a man "has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.” (TPJS, p.358) And President Spencer Kimball said, “The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.123)

The word "don't" should be removed from my post - I corrected it later, but apparently not before you quoted it.  I think it WAS predictive (meaning predicting what these apostates would go on to) and NOT descriptive (meaning it was not describing what they had already done).

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5 hours ago, Stargater53 said:

Many latter-day saints have asked about these things, and lately I have wondered about it too. 

First, the Sons of Perdition. A lot of conflicting opinions and quotations. Joseph Smith inferred that to become a Son of Perdition, one would have to essentially reach a state of exaltation and then blow it. Of seeing the sunlight coming through the window and then swearing it wasn't there! But on another occasion he said that many apostates of the church would be sons of perdition, so the quotations seem to be at odds with one another. Since most apostates certainly never reached a state where they would otherwise have reached a state of having their calling and election made sure, could they then be strong candidates for being Sons of Perdition?

The next question is even more tricky and it treads on the above. Many of our great prophets at Conference say something that makes me wonder. We are, they say, lucky, greatly privileged, to be living in our day, and some intimate we might very well be the generation that will welcome the returning Messiah. But let's look at the facts:

First, most people who have been born into mortality end up dying as infants! This means all of these are guaranteed exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. They were born, then died, meaning they don't have to undergo the pains of mortality, right?!

Then we have those born into mortality during the Millennium. They will live to the age of a hundred, then they will be "twinkled" into a resurrected body of flesh and bones. And because there is no infant mortality, the population will soar during that time. We might even say that most of the people ever born into mortality and lived will be born in the Millennium. Are you beginning to see my point? Based on sheer numbers, it appears that most of God's children ever to be born will gain the Celestial Kingdom! The only ones in the Millennium who will not are those who are deceived by Satan in the last few years and who attack the Holy City in a reboot of the battle of Gog and Magog! And, we're told, their numbers will be as the sand upon the sea shore. In other words, a huge number at the end will be, what? Sons of Perdition?? And whereas the original battle of Gog and Magog at the beginning of the Millennium will be against the city of Jerusalem, I suspect the second battle of Gog and Magog will be against the Holy City of the New Jerusalem! And the Lord will make short work of them as He will Celestialize the entire planet.

So what are your thoughts? Are we who are born in this day not quite as good as the majority of people who are born  to inherit the Celestial Kingdom? And will most of the people ever to be born worthy of exaltation without the need of being tested? 

Let me know! And is Gene Simmons a son of perdition??

 

A son of perdition means a son of Satan. In the end all mankind will be classified as either son's of God or sons of perdition. To become a son of perdition all one has to do is remain unrepentant and follow and love Satan. All men will have full ability to repent and accept Christ. Those who do will become the son's of God. Very few will end up becoming son's of perdition. 

I also am in the boat of no free passes to heaven. Those children who die will have the opportunity to choose Christ and accept and perform all the ordinances pertaining to their salvation and exaltation. Nothing is a gimme.

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Since most apostates certainly never reached a state where they would otherwise have reached a state of having their calling and election made sure, could they then be strong candidates for being Sons of Perdition?

I don't think anyone (on earth) knows who is and isn't a son of perdition.   Years ago in Institute class a teacher said that Judas was a son of perdition, but this isn't backed up by official doctrine and some prophets have indicated that they didn't think that he was.

As far as I know, the only person we know of who is a son pf perdition is Cain since it is in the scriptures (Moses 5:24).  

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20 hours ago, Stargater53 said:

Many latter-day saints have asked about these things, and lately I have wondered about it too. 

First, the Sons of Perdition. A lot of conflicting opinions and quotations. Joseph Smith inferred that to become a Son of Perdition, one would have to essentially reach a state of exaltation and then blow it. Of seeing the sunlight coming through the window and then swearing it wasn't there! But on another occasion he said that many apostates of the church would be sons of perdition, so the quotations seem to be at odds with one another. Since most apostates certainly never reached a state where they would otherwise have reached a state of having their calling and election made sure, could they then be strong candidates for being Sons of Perdition?

The next question is even more tricky and it treads on the above. Many of our great prophets at Conference say something that makes me wonder. We are, they say, lucky, greatly privileged, to be living in our day, and some intimate we might very well be the generation that will welcome the returning Messiah. But let's look at the facts:

First, most people who have been born into mortality end up dying as infants! This means all of these are guaranteed exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. They were born, then died, meaning they don't have to undergo the pains of mortality, right?!

Then we have those born into mortality during the Millennium. They will live to the age of a hundred, then they will be "twinkled" into a resurrected body of flesh and bones. And because there is no infant mortality, the population will soar during that time. We might even say that most of the people ever born into mortality and lived will be born in the Millennium. Are you beginning to see my point? Based on sheer numbers, it appears that most of God's children ever to be born will gain the Celestial Kingdom! The only ones in the Millennium who will not are those who are deceived by Satan in the last few years and who attack the Holy City in a reboot of the battle of Gog and Magog! And, we're told, their numbers will be as the sand upon the sea shore. In other words, a huge number at the end will be, what? Sons of Perdition?? And whereas the original battle of Gog and Magog at the beginning of the Millennium will be against the city of Jerusalem, I suspect the second battle of Gog and Magog will be against the Holy City of the New Jerusalem! And the Lord will make short work of them as He will Celestialize the entire planet.

So what are your thoughts? Are we who are born in this day not quite as good as the majority of people who are born  to inherit the Celestial Kingdom? And will most of the people ever to be born worthy of exaltation without the need of being tested? 

Let me know! And is Gene Simmons a son of perdition??

 

The actual meanings of many gospel terms are dependent on context and degree. Salvation is one, son of perdition is another. So we speak with the tongue of angels to convey and to understand true principles (2 Nephi 31:13-14).

Another’s privilege takes nothing away from ours. All who are born set out worthy for exaltation. Their mortal circumstances are designed to give them the best opportunities to fulfil that premortal desire (see Acts 17:26-27).

A number as the sand of the seashore could mean many, too many to count, or simply indeterminate. If people not yet born haven’t made their mortal choices, the number of sons of perdition is indeed indeterminate.

Gene Simmons has bad breath… wait, or it is Richard Simmons?

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I believe that anyone that desires to be a son of perdition will get the full measure what they desire.  Along this line - I believe that everyone will receive according to their desire - no more nor no less.  I also believe that we can all be aware or the desire of our own hearts - I am not sure that we know all that much (regardless of what me man think) about the desire or anyone else's heart - yet.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

I don't think anyone (on earth) knows who is and isn't a son of perdition.   Years ago in Institute class a teacher said that Judas was a son of perdition, but this isn't backed up by official doctrine and some prophets have indicated that they didn't think that he was.

As far as I know, the only person we know of who is a son pf perdition is Cain since it is in the scriptures (Moses 5:24).  

Judas is a son of perdition. That is what the scriptures really do say-

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

32 But behold, it sorroweth me because of the fourthgeneration from this generation, for they are led away captive by him even as was the son of perdition; for they will sell me for silver and for gold, and for that which moth doth corrupt and which thieves can break through and steal. And in that day will I visit them, even in turning their works upon their own heads. (3 Nephi 27:32)

This is directly in reference to Judas who betrayed him and sold him out for money. Judas is a son of perdition.

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Judas is a son of perdition. That is what the scriptures really do say-

Maybe, but there seems to be disagreement with several of the modern prophets and apostles on the matter.

Here's the commentary on LDS.org concerning that particular scripture:

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/introduction-to-the-gospel-according-to-st-john/lesson-77-john-17?lang=eng

John 17:12. “The son of perdition”

It appears that Jesus Christ used the words “son of perdition” to refer to Judas Iscariot, who at this point had left Jesus and the other eleven Apostles in order to betray Jesus to the corrupt Jewish leaders. Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles noted, “Judas … was probably not a son of perdition in the sense of one who is damned forever, but in the sense that he was a son or follower of Satan in this life. See Matt. 26:21–25” 

This too:

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-the-gospel-according-to-st-john/chapter-27-john-17-19?lang=eng

John 17:12. “The Son of Perdition”

The Greek word from which “perdition” is translated (apōleia)indicates a condition of being lost or destroyed. Elsewhere in the New Testament, apōleia is translated as “destruction” (Matthew 7:13Romans 9:22), “waste” (Matthew 26:8Mark 14:4), and “damnation” (2 Peter 2:3). These terms seem appropriate as applied to Judas Iscariot. Speaking of the condition of Judas Iscariot, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said:

“We know the divine plan required Jesus to be crucified, but it is wrenching to think that one of His special witnesses who sat at His feet, heard Him pray, watched Him heal, and felt His touch could betray Him and all that He was for 30 pieces of silver. Never in the history of this world has so little money purchased so much infamy. We are not the ones to judge Judas’s fate, but Jesus said of His betrayer, ‘Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born.’ [Matthew 26:24]” (“None Were with Him,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2009, 86).

President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) wrote about whether or not Judas is a son of perdition, after first referring to Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–37, 43, which describes the knowledge that must be understood and then rejected by those who become sons of perdition: “That Judas did partake of all this knowledge—that these great truths had been revealed to him—that he had received the Holy Spirit by the gift of God, and was therefore qualified to commit the unpardonable sin, is not at all clear to me. To my mind it strongly appears that not one of the disciples possessed sufficient light, knowledge nor wisdom, at the time of the crucifixion, for either exaltation or condemnation; for it was afterward that their minds were opened to understand the scriptures, and that they were endowed with power from on high; without which they were only children in knowledge, in comparison to what they afterwards became under the influence of the Spirit” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 433).

As far as I know, Cain is the only one called Perdition with a capital "P" among official church sources.

You are correct however, that John 17:12 and 3 Nephi 27:32 do say that Judas was called a son of perdition.  Although some of the modern apostles and prophets have disagreed, or at least weren't certain, I'd have to agree with you on the matter.  

Edited by Scott
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/27/2018 at 1:07 PM, Scott said:

I don't think anyone (on earth) knows who is and isn't a son of perdition. Years ago in Institute class a teacher said that Judas was a son of perdition, but this isn't backed up by official doctrine and some prophets have indicated that they didn't think that he was. As far as I know, the only person we know of who is a son of perdition is Cain since it is in the scriptures (Moses 5:24).  

Perhaps, but I believe Judas was a son of perdition. First, Jesus said he was a son of perdition. In John 17, he prayed, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Two, Judas saw the miracles Jesus performed and knew of his identity as the Messiah. And Jesus said, "but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." Then Judas, which betrayed Him, answered and said, "Master, is it I?" To which Jesus replied, "Thou hast said." (Matthew 26:24-25. That sounds like a son of perdition to me. Some have said that Peter denied Jesus because he didn't have full knowledge of who Jesus was, and though that sounds reasonable on its face, Peter never betrayed Jesus. I can appreciate why some, like Elder McConkie, would want to sympathize with Judas to a degree, but I'm assuming Jesus was familiar with the term "son of perdition," as we are. And Peter also applies the title to the Son of Perdition who will be Gog, the one who attacks Israel during the battle of Armageddon. (See Acts 3:18-21, where Peter calls him, "the man of sin, the son of perdition"). Gog will be a son of perdition because he can read, and he can see the divine warning in Ezekiel 38-39. In the same manner, Judas was warned and forewarned. Yet he betrayed Jesus knowingly. And that's why I think he's a son of perdition.

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Satan denied the plan of the Father and, therefore, was cast out of Heaven along with his associates (those who thought the same way he did). They became sons of perdition and Satan was called Perdition. So, once a person associates with Satan, he seals him/her as his and this person becomes a son of perdition. Of course, such association occurs freely, not compulsively and after the person had been influenced by the power of the Holy Ghost and received clear knowledge of God and Christ. That means that Christ will seal His children as His, as we learned in the scriptures, and Satan will do the same, since he imitates Christ in whatever He does.

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On 11/26/2018 at 9:44 PM, Rob Osborn said:

 Those children who die will have the opportunity to choose Christ and accept and perform all the ordinances pertaining to their salvation and exaltation.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

-Moroni 8

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

-Moroni 8

Hum...at some point those children arent children anymore and need to choose to follow God like everyone else.

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2 hours ago, Stargater53 said:

The reason Satan can't tempt little children is because he lacks the ability to tempt someone who is potentially more evil than himself. Especially two-year olds! (This is from the Teachings of the Prophet Stargater53, which I'm presently compiling!)

 

 

No.

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