One Foot In


JustCurious
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I grew up very active in the church, in a very active Mormon family.  Deacon, Teacher, Priest, Elder - served a mission, etc.  Many years ago when I was dating my wife, prior to marriage, we took things a little too far.  Not all the way, but a little too far, well short of all the way.  I felt bad and confessed to my bishop.  He was a good sincere man, and spoke with me a couple/few times about it.  I told him my then girlfriend and I wanted to get married.  He signed my recommend and I was set to see the stake president.  This interview was 6 days before our temple wedding.  The SP went through the normal questions.  One of course was about the Law of Chastity, where he asked if I'd ever done anything.....  ,  I told him nothing that I hadn't taken care of with my bishop.  He got real curious and started asking many more questions about this in detail, peeling off those scabs of something I thought was forgiven and in the past.  I was shocked as I'd already gone through a process with my bishop.  He ended asking when I was getting married.  I told him in 6 days.  He said "Oh, I don't know about that".  For the next couple/few days I was scared and humiliated by the situation, not knowing what would come of the temple wedding.  It is of course very scandalous if you had a temple wedding planned, then it became a civil wedding at last moment.  Everybody in the ward, etc knows what that means, even though it's none of their business.  Luckily the stake president pushed the decision back to my bishop.  My bishop was extremely confused by how the stake president was handling this.  Luckily, we got the OK and were married in the temple.  

However, during my same time of being interviewed by the stake president, my then fiancé (now wife) was being interviewed by her stake president.  She told me afterwards that her stake president was giving her very strange sexual advise about what she should do with her soon to be husband.  My wife was bothered and felt violated, as I did as well.  

These experiences were some of the final straws (among many others) that helped push us finally over the edge into mostly inactivity.  It's been 20 years of mostly inactivity ever since.  We live outside of the Utah protective shell, and we've wanted our kids to have high morals similar to Mormons, but we don't want them exposed to closely to this kind of abuse by leaders.  We tried putting "one foot in" in the local ward, but we found that to be the most shunned and outcast arrangement available with other ward members.  

Is there a place for a "one foot in" family in the local Mormon wards?  Are there wards that accept the "one foot in" families?

Edited by JustCurious
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I'm not certain what you mean by a one foot in family. 

Sometimes it can be hard to get involved with a new ward.  There are some wards that have "cliques" as you would put it.  The good thing to know is that wards that have cliques have MORE MEMBERS OUTSIDE of these cliques than INSIDE these cliques.  The key is to find those who are not part of the clique and try to become friends with them.

In many wards people are NOT outgoing.  Their personalities are not such that they go out of their way to greet newcomers or visitors.  They can be extremely friendly but many times it takes those who are new or visiting to take the initiative.

You also have very friendly and warmly welcoming wards in the church.  Many would say most wards are like these, but I do not know.  I would hope that a majority are like this.

However, I think there are great Mormons to be found in all the variety of wards that are out there.  I would say give it another chance and try to be friendly with those who are in the ward itself.  Take the initiative.  If it is a cliquish ward, don't try to become part of the clique but look for those who are NOT part of that clique.  Give it a few weeks, be positive, and seek to make friends.  You may be surprised at how easy it is to find others who will welcome you once they get to know you and help you out.

In regards to abuse, at least prior to the age of 18.  Ask that your kids ALWAYS to ask for you to be in the room if they are talking with a leader.  The church now has this as something that can be done, and with you in the room you can talk about things that you may or may not approve of if certain discussion items come up.

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9 hours ago, JustCurious said:

Is there a place for a "one foot in" family in the local Mormon wards?  Are there wards that accept the "one foot in" families?

So you want the benefits of being Latter-day Saints without being Latter-day Saints? 

Well let me ask you this. Clearly you don’t believe this is the true church so why would you want to expose your kids to it? Why do you want your kids to have good morals? Why don’t you go to some other church where interviews are not needed?

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10 hours ago, JustCurious said:

We tried putting "one foot in" in the local ward, but we found that to be the most shunned and outcast arrangement available with other ward members.  

So, I understand we occasionally have a church leader that does something wrong, or even evil.  And I understand that someone might come to church and feel shunned and outcast.  But I also understand that someone with a track record of having one bad experience after another, with folks in different locations, going from evil SP to being shunned and outcast by totally different people, well, the odds are that there are two sides to this story.  People who find rejection and offensive behavior from total strangers wherever they go, well, tend to end up finding more of the same until they make some changes themselves.  

Here's what I can say: God is real, the BoM is a real account, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and this is Christ's restored church.  That said, it's chock full from top to bottom of fallen, sinful, imperfect humans.  Including you and me.  I've had my best experiences when I just focus on me and the growth I need to do, and forgive any of them that have offended me.  Yes, the bad ones need to be avoided.  But yes, there is good in this church, and if you can maybe just learn to care a titch or two less about what other people think of you, your church experience may be improved.  

If you're just looking for a community to help you raise your kids, well, you can find that in neighborhoods, other churches, community organizations, mom's clubs, all over the place.  No need to devote your life to discipleship if all you want is a support system. 

So what do you want for yourself and your family?

Edited by NeuroTypical
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10 hours ago, JustCurious said:

Is there a place for a "one foot in" family in the local Mormon wards?  Are there wards that accept the "one foot in" families?

Depends on what you want. If you expect to have in depth relationships with the people in your ward, then probably not. You'll need to go more to develop them. If you don't really fit in with the ward or get your social needs from other friends/work then yes, of course there is room. It's better to be an inactive/slightly active LDS than not LDS at all. 

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10 hours ago, JustCurious said:

I grew up very active in the church, in a very active Mormon family.  Deacon, Teacher, Priest, Elder - served a mission, etc.  Many years ago when I was dating my wife, prior to marriage, we took things a little too far.  Not all the way, but a little too far, well short of all the way.  I felt bad and confessed to my bishop.  He was a good sincere man, and spoke with me a couple/few times about it.  I told him my then girlfriend and I wanted to get married.  He signed my recommend and I was set to see the stake president.  This interview was 6 days before our temple wedding.  The SP went through the normal questions.  One of course was about the Law of Chastity, where he asked if I'd ever done anything.....  ,  I told him nothing that I hadn't taken care of with my bishop.  He got real curious and started asking many more questions about this in detail, peeling off those scabs of something I thought was forgiven and in the past.  I was shocked as I'd already gone through a process with my bishop.  He ended asking when I was getting married.  I told him in 6 days.  He said "Oh, I don't know about that".  For the next couple/few days I was scared and humiliated by the situation, not knowing what would come of the temple wedding.  It is of course very scandalous if you had a temple wedding planned, then it became a civil wedding at last moment.  Everybody in the ward, etc knows what that means, even though it's none of their business.  Luckily the stake president pushed the decision back to my bishop.  My bishop was extremely confused by how the stake president was handling this.  Luckily, we got the OK and were married in the temple.  

However, during my same time of being interviewed by the stake president, my then fiancé (now wife) was being interviewed by her stake president.  She told me afterwards that her stake president was giving her very strange sexual advise about what she should do with her soon to be husband.  My wife was bothered and felt violated, as I did as well.  

These experiences were some of the final straws (among many others) that helped push us finally over the edge into mostly inactivity.  It's been 20 years of mostly inactivity ever since.  We live outside of the Utah protective shell, and we've wanted our kids to have high morals similar to Mormons, but we don't want them exposed to closely to this kind of abuse by leaders.  We tried putting "one foot in" in the local ward, but we found that to be the most shunned and outcast arrangement available with other ward members.  

Is there a place for a "one foot in" family in the local Mormon wards?  Are there wards that accept the "one foot in" families?

Sure. Many people in wards are one foot, in one foot out. But, remember that to be one foot in members has no saving power and no ultimate joy.

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Sure.  I have one foot in and one foot out myself.  I've been very open with my fellow congregants about the fact that there are a number of things I don't like about the Church, and that I've been in the process of a faith crisis for 15 years.  I can't promise that I will or won't show up next Sunday, or any Sunday after that.

My congregation is completely accepting of that, and some are appreciative of it.  Heck, I've even the bishop's closest confidant.

Here's the catch, though; if you want to be one foot in and one foot out, you have to actually have a foot in.  That means participating in service projects, lessons, activities, etc.  You have to be a part of the community.  Otherwise, you don't actually have a foot in; you're just lurking in the shadows.

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Thank you all.  

To address a couple points made in response to my initial posting - One thing I want to make absolutely clear - We are not at all, nor ever have been in the mindset of "poor me, these members are just unaccepting of us wherever we go".  As noted in the one ignorant response above "someone with a track record of having one bad experience after another, with folks in different locations", essentially saying the problem is only with me, not the members engaged in the shunning.  I don't think that many members realize that there is absolutely most I definitely a culture within the church that shuns the "one foot in" members.  I'm not looking to play the victim.  We did far far more of the reaching out to others.  In a previous ward we were a limited "one foot in" family, and the vast majority of the members, including most of those we tried befriending were terribly shunning.  There were a few truly good people that didn't judge us by only our testimonies.  I could list solid examples of the most key people in the ward, but needless to say, we were shunned entirely based on our one foot in position.  In our new area, it is a much smaller ward/branch, and the members do seem pretty nice.  However, I can't drag my wife or kids there now after the previous experiences.  

But to many of the points made above, they are very valid.  Why are we interested in going if we don't have a testimony?  I do know there are many active church goers that go for the social life.  If it were only a social life thing, yeah, there are other churches or groups, etc.  Part of my thinking was morals.  I don't want my kids getting into the crazy drinking, party scene, etc that seem to be somewhat acceptable in most places.  If we were accepted for having no testimony in the wards, maybe that would have been a good place, but I think many of you are right - no need to devote my life to discipleship if that's what it takes to not be shunned.  

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2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

I have one foot in and one foot out myself.  I've been very open with my fellow congregants about the fact that there are a number of things I don't like about the Church, and that I've been in the process of a faith crisis for 15 years.  I can't promise that I will or won't show up next Sunday, or any Sunday after that.

My congregation is completely accepting of that, and some are appreciative of it.  Heck, I've even the bishop's closest confidant.

 

1 hour ago, JustCurious said:

...the vast majority of the members, including most of those we tried befriending were terribly shunning.

I have to wonder why MoE's experince, and JustCurious' experience are so different.  How come JustCurious has such wide and extensive experience being shunned, and MoE is one of the of the bishop's closest confidants?

JustCurious calls my opinion ignorant.  He's not wrong - by definition - my opinion is based on ignorance, because I don't know either of you, or any of the people who know you in real life.  But you came here for an opinion, and I've known enough people in real life to see that folks tend to end up with what they expect and look for.  

If you find yourself being shunned by everyone, you gotta ask why.  An entire ward where the "vast majority of the members" are all judgey/gossippy/shunners?  Or do you have an attitude problem, or social skills needing improvement, or something you should fix about yourself?

Yep, I do not know the answer here.  But I figure the issue is worthy of some consideration.

At the end of the day, all I can do is answer your questions:

Is there a place for a "one foot in" family in the local Mormon wards?  Yes, but we're LDS and we'll be invested in helping you improve your personal discipleship.     Are there wards that accept the "one foot in" families?  Yes, I guess you can find entire wards full of toxic people, but I've never seen one in my two-dozen-or-so wards I've experienced.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

If you find yourself being shunned by everyone, you gotta ask why.  An entire ward where the "vast majority of the members" are all judgey/gossippy/shunners?  Or do you have an attitude problem, or social skills needing improvement, or something you should fix about yourself?

Actually, he's on to something. In smaller wards, especially outside of the west, there are wards were the the "vast majority" of members are nice people, they mean well, and can become incredibly cliquey, incredibly unwelcome of outsiders, gossipy, and shunners. In fact, they can become so set in their ways of gossip/ignoring/being unfriendly that they don't realize what they are doing. Missionaries can see it, because they themselves are outsiders to how specific wards operate. Potential converts can see it. Snowbirds can see it. The only people who can't are the "vast majority" who have been doing things their way for so long that they've lost perspective. 

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We had a family in my previous ward that was inactive and constantly claimed all sorts of abuses. No family in the ward had more effort and love and service and giving and working put towards them (I was in EQ leadership at the time and was closely involved).

The simple fact is that interpretation is 9/10ths of offense.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, JustCurious said:

Thank you all.  

To address a couple points made in response to my initial posting - One thing I want to make absolutely clear - We are not at all, nor ever have been in the mindset of "poor me, these members are just unaccepting of us wherever we go".  As noted in the one ignorant response above "someone with a track record of having one bad experience after another, with folks in different locations", essentially saying the problem is only with me, not the members engaged in the shunning.  I don't think that many members realize that there is absolutely most I definitely a culture within the church that shuns the "one foot in" members.  I'm not looking to play the victim.  We did far far more of the reaching out to others.  In a previous ward we were a limited "one foot in" family, and the vast majority of the members, including most of those we tried befriending were terribly shunning.  There were a few truly good people that didn't judge us by only our testimonies.  I could list solid examples of the most key people in the ward, but needless to say, we were shunned entirely based on our one foot in position.  In our new area, it is a much smaller ward/branch, and the members do seem pretty nice.  However, I can't drag my wife or kids there now after the previous experiences.  

But to many of the points made above, they are very valid.  Why are we interested in going if we don't have a testimony?  I do know there are many active church goers that go for the social life.  If it were only a social life thing, yeah, there are other churches or groups, etc.  Part of my thinking was morals.  I don't want my kids getting into the crazy drinking, party scene, etc that seem to be somewhat acceptable in most places.  If we were accepted for having no testimony in the wards, maybe that would have been a good place, but I think many of you are right - no need to devote my life to discipleship if that's what it takes to not be shunned.  

I can only speak to my experience: I'm traditionally not a social person, and don't "fit in" a lot of wards.  In fact, some wards I've been in have been downright bad as far as my social experience-- not because anyone was being purposely mean or rude or anything like that.  But because I'm an odd-duck and there are personality clashes.  So I don't attend church for social reasons.  I attend because of my faith and building myself up that way.  

LDS morals don't come out of no where.  They are rooted in faith: belief in a God, faith in Him, avoiding something because He warns us to, etc. 

If what you're wanting to do attend to teach moral faith based principles without teaching faith... I mean you're certainly welcome to have at it.  It.. strikes me as very odd.  

If what you're wanting to do is attend and teach faith based morals/principles and faith, while forgiving people for being flawed humans and not attending the ward Christmas party-- well that strikes me as very logical avenue with much benefit. 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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Consider: Both stake presidents gave permission for the sealing to proceed, yet the OP claims ABUSE.

Seriously? ABUSE? Because the stake president wanted to make sure the young man was morally clean and worthy? "Abuse" because the fiancée's stake president gave well-meant if awkward marital/sexual advice?

At some point, people need to Grow The Heck Up and quit getting so deeply offended by stupid little things. Yes, I do mean the OP. Grow up.

To answer your question: No, there is no "one-foot-in" program that caters to those individuals who want the benefits and blessings of Church membership but don't want to actually put any effort into bettering themselves and honoring/sustaining their leaders—human beings who have jobs, spouses, children, mortgages, and all the complications and problems that go with them; human beings who make decisions and give advice, sometimes turning out to be wrong; human beings who put their pants on one leg at a time, JUST LIKE YOU.

No. If you want the benefits of membership in the kingdom of God, then BE A MEMBER OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. That means putting your shoulder to the wheel and pushing along with everyone else. That means forgiving others their trespasses, including (perhaps especially) your leaders. Silly, meaningless crap like this? Sorry, not sorry. I have no sympathy for someone who gets what he wants and then moans about how people didn't genuflect sufficiently while serving him.

There is a place reserved for you at Church, JustCurious, but only if you're willing to accept it. Whining about an awkward moment with a stake president ten freaking years ago is not the way to accept the gift you've been offered.

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2 hours ago, JustCurious said:

I don't want my kids getting into the crazy drinking, party scene, etc that seem to be somewhat acceptable in most places.

Why not? I know plenty of former and current partyers that are very happy and successful.

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3 hours ago, JustCurious said:

Thank you all.  

To address a couple points made in response to my initial posting - One thing I want to make absolutely clear - We are not at all, nor ever have been in the mindset of "poor me, these members are just unaccepting of us wherever we go".  As noted in the one ignorant response above "someone with a track record of having one bad experience after another, with folks in different locations", essentially saying the problem is only with me, not the members engaged in the shunning.  I don't think that many members realize that there is absolutely most I definitely a culture within the church that shuns the "one foot in" members.  I'm not looking to play the victim.  We did far far more of the reaching out to others.  In a previous ward we were a limited "one foot in" family, and the vast majority of the members, including most of those we tried befriending were terribly shunning.  There were a few truly good people that didn't judge us by only our testimonies.  I could list solid examples of the most key people in the ward, but needless to say, we were shunned entirely based on our one foot in position.  In our new area, it is a much smaller ward/branch, and the members do seem pretty nice.  However, I can't drag my wife or kids there now after the previous experiences.  

But to many of the points made above, they are very valid.  Why are we interested in going if we don't have a testimony?  I do know there are many active church goers that go for the social life.  If it were only a social life thing, yeah, there are other churches or groups, etc.  Part of my thinking was morals.  I don't want my kids getting into the crazy drinking, party scene, etc that seem to be somewhat acceptable in most places.  If we were accepted for having no testimony in the wards, maybe that would have been a good place, but I think many of you are right - no need to devote my life to discipleship if that's what it takes to not be shunned.  

There is a place for you in our congregations. There are many who have faith transitions or are of little faith. By their fruits ye shall know them. Us LDS should be welcoming to all of Gods children. As long as folks aren't disruptive as some apostates like Dehlin are, we welcome all who want to be part of the Church of Jesus Christ community.

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

Consider: Both stake presidents gave permission for the sealing to proceed, yet the OP claims ABUSE.

Seriously? ABUSE? Because the stake president wanted to make sure the young man was morally clean and worthy? "Abuse" because the fiancée's stake president gave well-meant if awkward marital/sexual advice?

At some point, people need to Grow The Heck Up and quit getting so deeply offended by stupid little things. Yes, I do mean the OP. Grow up.

To answer your question: No, there is no "one-foot-in" program that caters to those individuals who want the benefits and blessings of Church membership but don't want to actually put any effort into bettering themselves and honoring/sustaining their leaders—human beings who have jobs, spouses, children, mortgages, and all the complications and problems that go with them; human beings who make decisions and give advice, sometimes turning out to be wrong; human beings who put their pants on one leg at a time, JUST LIKE YOU.

No. If you want the benefits of membership in the kingdom of God, then BE A MEMBER OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. That means putting your shoulder to the wheel and pushing along with everyone else. That means forgiving others their trespasses, including (perhaps especially) your leaders. Silly, meaningless crap like this? Sorry, not sorry. I have no sympathy for someone who gets what he wants and then moans about how people didn't genuflect sufficiently while serving him.

There is a place reserved for you at Church, JustCurious, but only if you're willing to accept it. Whining about an awkward moment with a stake president ten freaking years ago is not the way to accept the gift you've been offered.

You would be a real treat as a Bishop.

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4 minutes ago, Tyme said:

You would be a real treat as a Bishop.

Then we can both give thanks that such will never happen.

(BTW, you may want to consider that the dynamics of a public, semi-anonymous discussion list differ from those in a relationship between a bishop and congregant.)

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Actually, a congregation would be extremely lucky to have someone like  @Vort as a bishop.

I should explain that I liked this post because it was a kind thing to say, not because I think @Vort would or would not be a good bishop. ;)

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16 minutes ago, Vort said:

(BTW, you may want to consider that the dynamics of a public, semi-anonymous discussion list differ from those in a relationship between a bishop and congregant.)

I've found this to be true.  Many years ago on another discussion board, I argued for years with a guy who I really had a hard time liking.  He came across as easily offended, no sense of humor, puffed up with self-righteous pride.  Then he apparently became bishop.  And little changed.  Once, I copied one of his posts and sent it back to him, changing the "me"s to "you"s.  The tactic seemed to go over his head, but he took such offense at my insulting and callous post, he quit the board altogether.  His daughter showed up a month later to complain about how he had been treated, calling me out specifically.  

As far as I know, he made a really good bishop.  

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17 hours ago, JustCurious said:

Is there a place for a "one foot in" family in the local Mormon wards?  Are there wards that accept the "one foot in" families?

This is probably not what you want to hear, but it's straight from the scriptures

Revelations 3: 15-16  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Alma 30:8 8  For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

Jeremiah 50: 4-8 might also be worth pondering about

4  ¶ In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God. (Are you not now seeking the Lord?)
5  They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten. (Are you contemplating joirning yourselves to the Lord, to some extent?)
6  My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. (Have you been as a lost sheep and did shepherds in your past contribute to your going astray?)
7  All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers. (Has your faith and spirtuality and testimony been devoured in the time you have been lost?)
8  Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks. (Should you not remove out of Babylon, and back to the fold?)
 


 

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I've found this to be true.  Many years ago on another discussion board, I argued for years with a guy who I really had a hard time liking.  He came across as easily offended, no sense of humor, puffed up with self-righteous pride.  Then he apparently became bishop.  And little changed.  Once, I copied one of his posts and sent it back to him, changing the "me"s to "you"s.  The tactic seemed to go over his head, but he took such offense at my insulting and callous post, he quit the board altogether.  His daughter showed up a month later to complain about how he had been treated, calling me out specifically.  

As far as I know, he made a really good bishop.  

pf?

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