clbent04

My Theory on Who Is the Holy Ghost

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19 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I’ve noticed this too, but then here is an instance where a person is identified by the neuter pronoun: Mark 13: 11, “…whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.”

And here is an instance where the Holy Ghost could be more personified: 1 Pet. 1: 12, “…them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven…” but which I think refers to the power of the personage and not the personage.

I think the neuter pronoun is used because the Holy Ghost operates by spiritual power and influence as a Witness, and not in a first-hand physical sense as Jesus or Elohim did as the Son and the Father respectively, which calls for personal pronouns reflecting their gender. The Godhead is still referred to as a singular “He,” and the persons as "They form the Godhead."

D&C 130 22-23 allows that the Holy Ghost, as a personage, can descend both as an entity in time and space, virtually by other media, and also by the conveyance of personal power.

I think 2 Nephi 32: 2-5 and Alma 39:5-6 well demonstrate the close connection between the personage and the power. In both, the Holy Ghost is first presented as a divine, personal, intelligent entity, and the personal ministration is described in terms very different than a physical or spiritual element would be (such as, “the liquor talking” or the “peyote showing a vision”).

So it is understandable that the Holy Ghost be referred as “it” by virtue of His role as witnessing, representing and conveying the light and knowledge of God. The light of Christ is "it" and the witness of the Holy Ghost is "it," but because of their roles in our salvation, and perhaps more relevantly, the estates they occupy in fulfilling them, Christ and the Father are personified in our scriptures as someone in the flesh would be while the Holy Ghost is not.

Yeah, it's pretty confusing.

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Has anyone else noticed that speculation is not any fun it you actually know what is going on.  Plus it seems to me that the less someone knows about something the more vehemently (including anger and disgust) it seems that they must defend their theories and denigrate anyone that does not think their theory is brilliant and divinely inspired.  I think I agree with @Vort - Speculating about things for which there is not sufficient evidence is a lot more fun than being right about things that can actually be demonstrated - regardless of it importance.

 

The Traveler

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7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Has anyone else noticed that speculation is not any fun it you actually know what is going on.  Plus it seems to me that the less someone knows about something the more vehemently (including anger and disgust) it seems that they must defend their theories and denigrate anyone that does not think their theory is brilliant and divinely inspired. 

My speculation is merely my speculation. I have no anger or disgust for anyone who thinks otherwise.

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9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, personal confusion would be one basis for disbelief in D&C 130:22-23.

It's not personal confusion, it's widespread confusion. We don't really know or understand how the Holt Ghost operates. He obviously can't be in all of us at the same time. But, somehow his influence can. So why the need to be a spirit then?

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17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, personal confusion would be one basis for disbelief in D&C 130:22-23.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22-23 seems pretty straightforward.

Quote

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

But could the Holy Ghost simply be referring to Heavenly Grandfather's spiritual reach into domains created by gods under Him?  He does not physically exist in this domain because it is the domain of Heavenly Father, so therefore Heavenly Grandfather doesn't have a body of flesh and bones in this domain.  After all, everything we know and have been told is relevant to this domain only. God is Almighty in the domain we live in and this domain alone.

Edited by clbent04

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12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22-23 seems pretty straightforward.

But could the Holy Ghost simply be referring to Heavenly Grandfather's spiritual reach into domains created by gods under Him?  He does not physically exist in this domain because it is the domain of Heavenly Father, so therefore Heavenly Grandfather doesn't have a body of flesh and bones in this domain.  After all, everything we know and have been told is relevant to this domain only. God is Almighty in the domain we live in and this domain alone.

Nah.

Your commentary about domain, and astral traveling or not physically existing in another domain sounds like something from Dungeons & Dragons not Latter-Day Saint doctrine.

I like D&D and fantasy literature,  but I try not to mix it with my understanding of science or religion.

Edited by mikbone

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23 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Nah.

Your commentary about domain, and astral traveling or not physically existing in another domain sounds like something from Dungeons & Dragons not Latter-Day Saint doctrine.

I like D&D and fantasy literature,  but I try not to mix it with my understanding of science or religion.

I am angered and disgusted over your disagreement with me @mikbone

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Plus it seems to me that the less someone knows about something the more vehemently (including anger and disgust) it seems that they must defend their theories and denigrate anyone that does not think their theory is brilliant and divinely inspired. 

 

Edited by clbent04

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The following is from Truman G. Madsen, my favorite church historian.

Oral tradition attributes another wise maxim to the Prophet: “Don’t climb to the extreme branches of the tree, for there is danger of falling: cling close to the trunk.” One translation: Avoid the vain mysteries and the discussion of them. Avoid imaginative speculation. But Joseph Smith, one must quickly add, made a distinction between the mysteries of godliness-that is, the deeper things that can only be known by revelation to the soul on the how of living a godly life - and the speculative pursuit of matters that are without profit to the soul. The vain mysteries are those of which we know nothing and need not know anything - whether, for example, the pearly gates swing or roll. Or, what is the ultimate destiny of the sons of perdition. “Cling close to the trunk.” Truman G. Madsen, Joseph Smith the Prophet (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1989), 104.

I agree with what Vort said at the first, lets not talk about or worry about this. It is not pertinent, and doing so can cause more harm than good.

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50 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's not personal confusion, it's widespread confusion. We don't really know or understand how the Holt Ghost operates. He obviously can't be in all of us at the same time. But, somehow his influence can. So why the need to be a spirit then?

Are you not also personally confused? I can say with confidence that I do really know and understand how the Holy Ghost operates, and how his influence can be in all of us at the same time, but I'm not sure how helpful that is to you. There are basic explanations however on lds.org which seem to have served the general (widespread) needs. He needs to be a spirit the same reason you do: "For man is spirit."

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56 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22-23 seems pretty straightforward.

But could the Holy Ghost simply be referring to Heavenly Grandfather's spiritual reach into domains created by gods under Him?  He does not physically exist in this domain because it is the domain of Heavenly Father, so therefore Heavenly Grandfather doesn't have a body of flesh and bones in this domain.  After all, everything we know and have been told is relevant to this domain only. God is Almighty in the domain we live in and this domain alone.

I'm not sure why any domain would operate any differently than what has been revealed pertaining to the various estates in the plan of salvation. We can invent some, for sure, in which case any scenario could be entertained. Truth and vain imagination certainly exist in the same domain, and what has been divinely revealed for this domain applies to, or is replicated, for other domains; in many ways what has been revealed is the way Heavenly Father lived His mortal life and so on for generations and generations to come  (I take Moses 1:35 in a particular context only for Moses, and not as a general Gospel principle).

If I'm not present in your house, does that mean my spirit that is manifest to you through this website doesn't have a body? Theoretically the Holy Ghost could have a body, and evidently someday will have one since the revealed pattern for a fulness of joy calls for that. But for now I agree D&C 130:22-23 seems pretty straightforward.

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10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have always felt that the LDS doctrine of the Holy Ghost is as mysterious as the Catholics view of the Trinity.

 In light of what we know about the preexistent Christ, what’s so mysterious about the concept of an unembodied divine man acting as God prior to his embodiment?

Edited by Jersey Boy

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12 hours ago, CV75 said:

Spirits can be gods, just not in the same fuller way an exalted being is. "Godhead" means "divine nature," and I know we tend to emphasize the "council" aspect of that, probably related to our appreciation of restored authority and the idea of a "quorum of three presidents" in ancient times (D&C 107:29). But the Holy Ghost can certainly carry out His work just as Jesus did His in pre-mortality.

The Jospeh Smith quote saying the Holy Spirit is in a state of probation doesn’t fit with how I see the Godhead. Was the preexistence Jesus Christ also in a state of probabtion? 

Edited by clbent04

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8 hours ago, CV75 said:

Are you not also personally confused? I can say with confidence that I do really know and understand how the Holy Ghost operates, and how his influence can be in all of us at the same time, but I'm not sure how helpful that is to you. There are basic explanations however on lds.org which seem to have served the general (widespread) needs. He needs to be a spirit the same reason you do: "For man is spirit."

So, does the Holy Ghost go around from person to person on Earth or what? We speak of having the Holy Ghost dwelling in us, but is that his actual being or just what?

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3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, does the Holy Ghost go around from person to person on Earth or what? We speak of having the Holy Ghost dwelling in us, but is that his actual being or just what?

Exactly on point with part of what led me to speculate upon the nature of the Holy Ghost. That’s all we can do is speculate. And as important as it is to us as Latter-day Saints to have the Holy Spirit in our lives, how can we not feel prompted to speculate who He is.

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9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's not personal confusion, it's widespread confusion. We don't really know or understand how the Holt Ghost operates. He obviously can't be in all of us at the same time. But, somehow his influence can. So why the need to be a spirit then?

Actually there is a way that a spirit could connect directly with everyone in our dimensional space-time.  There is a very logical possibility that would give reason that requires the Holy Ghost with a unique mission and calling in the plan of salvation that would necessitate such a spirit of a just man made perfect.  

 

The Traveler

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3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Exactly on point with part of what led me to speculate upon the nature of the Holy Ghost. That’s all we can do is speculate. And as important as it is to us as Latter-day Saints to have the Holy Spirit in our lives, how can we not feel prompted to speculate who He is.

I'm just not totally sold it's a single person. When it speaks of the throne of God in eternity it's just the Father and the Son and never anyone else. Look at this verse-

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. (Rev. 22:1)

It speaks two people not three. Again-

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him. (Rev 22:3)

If the HG is a part of the Godhead, where is part on the throne?

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16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If the HG is a part of the Godhead, where is part on the throne?

My theory doesn’t require the force behind the Holy Spirit to be physically present in this domain.

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54 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

The Jospeh Smith quote saying the Holy Spirit is in a state of probation doesn’t fit with how I see the Godhead. Was the preexistence Jesus Christ also in a state of probabtion? 

If probation means having to face, deal with and conquer difficult tests, trials and tribulations prior to being made perfect, then, yes, Christ was in a state of probation until he said “it is finished” as he gave up the ghost on the cross at Calvary.

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11 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Yes, exactly where the main issue of my theory bumps up against what is commonly understood of the Holy Spirit.  But what is a "personage of spirit"?  Does having that description really mean that you can't have a glorified body?  

If my theory is somehow correct, then God's god, the Holy Spirit, not only has a glorified body of flesh and bone, but He also has spiritual presence in all that He has organized and created, as well as in all the domains of those who organize and create under Him.

Having spiritual presence in the domains of gods under you essentially translates to being a "personage of spirit" in their domains. You may not be physically present, but you are inseparably linked by way of an eternal order.

I believe our Book of Mormon and our doctrine answers "what is a 'personage of spirit'? When the brother of Jared prayed and saw the finger of the Lord he was shocked to see a "finger." At this time it appears the brother of Jared may not have had such knowledge and in his own mind saw something different.

Then he sees the Lord, without a body of flesh and blood, and without a glorified body of flesh and bone (which the Father already had), "Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh."

I think it important to note that Jesus Christ's spirit is referred to as a "body" and "body of my spirit." At this moment Christ was a "personage of spirit" like unto the Holy Ghost. So, yes, as described and provided in scripture a personage of Spirit does not at present (not that they can't because obviously Christ no longer has solely a spirit "body") have a glorified immortal body of flesh and bone.

We were all personages of spirit before we were born to this earth life. Our spirit bodies took upon flesh, so that one day we would have an immortal soul -- flesh and bone. We are no longer personages of spirit.

A common anti-Mormon scripture is the one where it states "God is spirit." This they use for God the Father, and Jesus Christ, that they do not have a body of flesh and bone that is glorified. We, via modern revelation, know otherwise. Although they have a glorified body, their presence is felt every where. These though are separate talking points. There is a difference between saying his presence, his spirit and charity, is felt everywhere, and specifying God is only a "personage of spirit, when we know he has a body of flesh and bone that is glorified -- spiritual.

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8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

The Jospeh Smith quote saying the Holy Spirit is in a state of probation doesn’t fit with how I see the Godhead. Was the preexistence Jesus Christ also in a state of probabtion? 

I think each estate is a state of probation. That is how we progress. The war in heaven for example was certainly a time of probation.

The spirit children of God have many things in common as laid out in the plan of salvation, and also many things that are unique to our individual , eternal personalities and intelligence. For example, we are born at different times, in different places and with unique gifts and challenges as individuals that a loving God has kept in mind to best ensure our progress according to our agency. I often quote Acts 17:26-27 in reference to this pattern. I believe this is also the case for the pre-mortal world, the spirit world, whatever we learn after the resurrection, etc. Not different paths, but the same covenants and end or aim, fulfilled by different intelligences who both depend upon and create individualized circumstances just as we do here in mortality.

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