My Theory on Who Is the Holy Ghost

[zil]

Welcome, @Klaymen!

1 hour ago, Klaymen said:

On 12/2/2018 at 8:23 PM, LePeel said:

"God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory" D&C 121:26 

If the gift of the Holy Ghost had not been revealed until around the time of D&C 121, what exactly was going with Pentecost and later events in the book of Acts?  The New Testament is replete with references to the Holy Spirit.

"that has not been revealed since the world was until now" is modifying "knowledge".  It is not modifying "Holy Spirit" or "unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost".

Anybody know of a sentence-diagramming tool that will generate a graphic?  That could be great fun!

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

1 hour ago, Klaymen said:

If the gift of the Holy Ghost had not been revealed until around the time of D&C 121, what exactly was going with Pentecost and later events in the book of Acts?  The New Testament is replete with references to the Holy Spirit.

Welcome, @Klaymen!

"that has not been revealed since the world was until now" is modifying "knowledge".  It is not modifying "Holy Spirit" or "unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost".

Anybody know of a sentence-diagramming tool that will generate a graphic?  That could be great fun!

Perhaps it would be easier to simply reword without cutting phrases:

Quote

"God shall give unto you knowledge that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory.

By his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost,  shall God reveal it" D&C 121:26 

@Klaymen,

Does that help?  Commas are more important than people give them credit for.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Guest

[zil]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Perhaps it would be easier to simply reword without cutting phrases:

Diagramming the sentence would be more fun.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

Diagramming the sentence would be more fun.

I just got done telling my kids that diagramming sentences is the single most useless educational/literary tool ever invented.

Why?

Because no one EVER uses it outside of education circles.  And why do they use them in education?  To teach students how to diagram sentences.  Yes.  It has NO PURPOSE other than self-preservation.

[zil]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I just got done telling my kids that diagramming sentences is the single most useless educational/literary tool ever invented.

Why?

Because no one EVER uses it outside of education circles.  And why do they use them in education?  To teach students how to diagram sentences.  Yes.  It has NO PURPOSE other than self-preservation.

Nonsense.  Its purpose is to clarify how the various bits of a complex sentence relate to one another.  While it may well be better, when creating sentence, to create them such that a diagram isn't needed, the simple fact is that the scriptures are chock full of sentences that would be clearer if presented as a diagram rather than straight text.

Plus, they're fun.

[zil]

PS: A secondary benefit is to teach students to think about how sentences are structured so that they can both understand them and structure them well.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, zil said:

Nonsense.  Its purpose is to clarify how the various bits of a complex sentence relate to one another.  While it may well be better, when creating sentence, to create them such that a diagram isn't needed, the simple fact is that the scriptures are chock full of sentences that would be clearer if presented as a diagram rather than straight text.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, zil said:

PS: A secondary benefit is to teach students to think about how sentences are structured so that they can both understand them and structure them well.

And how do you think those students are doing because of it?

[zil]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

And how do you think those students are doing because of it?

I fail to comprehend the question.  Taught and learned correctly, diagramming sentences lets you do what I did above - identify that the phrase which really does appear to be modifying either "Holy Spirit" or "the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost" - regardless of commas (indeed, the commas don't help at all as they're right where they'd be regardless of what the phrase is modifying) - is actually modifying "knowledge".  In a diagram, that fact cannot be missed - in the verse quoted, it clearly can be missed.

Can one learn to do that without learning diagramming?  Of course.  I'm not convinced it's better without.  The diagramming teaches you to think of blocks of words rather than individual words or whole sentences.  I think the visual breaking apart does that better than any other way I know.

I respect your right to think otherwise - and the right of your brain to work otherwise.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, zil said:

I fail to comprehend the question.

You said that the existence & use of this methodology helps people to write sentences better.  OK, let's say it does.

What evidence exists among the VAST numbers of students who have been forced to endure the torturous agony that is (Cue Don Pardo) DIAGRAMMING SENTENCES?  I think percentage-wise, the number of people who actually realize this supposed benefit is statistically zero.

In other words, just you, my dear ink muse. 

I wonder how many people actually use it after they leave school.  I mean EH -VAHR!

Edited December 4, 2018 by Guest

[zil]

Just now, Carborendum said:

You said that the existence & use of this methodology helps people to write sentences better.

What evidence exists among the VAST numbers of students who have been forced to endure the torturous agony that is (Cue Don Pardo) DIAGRAMMING SENTENCES.  I think percentage-wise, the number of people who actually realize this supposed benefit is statistically zero.

In other words, just you, my dear ink muse. 

I wonder how many people actually use it after they leave school.  I mean EH -VAHR!

I wonder how many people ever learned it in the first place.  I know nothing about education except what I experienced eons ago.  But I know there's an awful lot of people in the workforce who apparently never learned things which I consider less than basic.  Just because teachers can't teach and students decline to learn doesn't mean the tool is useless.

[Guest]

Just now, zil said:

I wonder how many people ever learned it in the first place.  I know nothing about education except what I experienced eons ago.  But I know there's an awful lot of people in the workforce who apparently never learned things which I consider less than basic.  Just because teachers can't teach and students decline to learn doesn't mean the tool is useless.

My dear Sheathen Mistress, you've indeed hit a soft spot.  You've blamed the failure on public schooling.  How can I dare disagree with that. 

[Guest Scott]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

Just because teachers can't teach and students decline to learn doesn't mean the tool is useless.

This is true.  Sentence diagrams can be a very useful.   For example, you can make your kids do them when they do something very bad.  It is a very effective punishment tool.  

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Scott

[zil]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

This is true.  Sentence diagrams can be a very useful.   For example, you can make your kids do them when they do something very bad.  It is a very effective punishment tool. 

I suppose if you haven't taught your children to love language then yes, it would be an effective punishment tool; but nowhere near as effective a tool as having failed to teach them to love language.

[CV75]

Just now, zil said:

I suppose if you haven't taught your children to love language then yes, it would be an effective punishment tool; but nowhere near as effective a tool as having failed to teach them to love language.

I for one find sentence diagram quite enjoyable. AND helpful. Can't say the same about algebra. Sudoku maybe.

[LePeel]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Perhaps it would be easier to simply reword without cutting phrases:

@Klaymen,

Does that help?  Commas are more important than people give them credit for.

Oh my goodness, I can't believe I missed that. It completely changes the meaning.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I for one find sentence diagram quite enjoyable. AND helpful. Can't say the same about algebra. Sudoku maybe.

You believe it is useful.  How often do you use it in a non-academic setting?

[clbent04]

14 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You didn't get the crux of my argument.  It's NOT just one man who said ONE statement.  It has to do with what is accepted doctrine which has been repeated and confirmed by every prophet since Joseph Smith.

I can see where some of your confusion lies since I was responding to two Joseph Smith quotes, but I really was only referring to one. This is the JS quote I was questioning that @mikbone posted:

Quote

Franklin D. Richards  -  “Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

I've never heard that "the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.”

Do you accept this as official church doctrine?  I have not seen this validated anywhere by the Church itself.

Edited December 5, 2018 by clbent04

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I can see where some of your confusion lies since I was responding to two Joseph Smith quotes, but I really was only referring to one. This is the JS quote I was questioning that @mikbone posted:

I've never heard that "the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.”

Do you accept this as official church doctrine?  I have not seen this validated anywhere by the Church itself.

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.[1]

 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-27-august-1843-as-reported-by-franklin-d-richards/3

 

Holy Ghost Yet a Spiritual Body - But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again & the Scripture Say those who will obey the commandments shall be heirs of god & Joint heirs with of Jesus Christ we then also took bodies to lay them down, to take them up again & the Spirit itself bears witness with our Spirits that we are the children of god & if children then heirs and Joint heirs with Jesus Christ if So be that we Suffer with him in the flesh that we may be also glorified together. See Romans 8 chapter 16 & 17 Verses.[2]

 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-16-june-1844-a-as-reported-by-george-laub/2

 

---

[1] Joseph Smith Jr., Nauvoo Illinois August 27, 1843, as recorded by Franklin D. Richards in “Scriptural Items”.

[2] Joseph Smith Jr., Nauvoo Illinois June 16, 1844 “Sermon in the Grove”, as recorded from memory by George Laub in the Laub Journal

 

As you can see from the Above, the statement occurred on at least 2 separate occasions.

And no, neither of the speeches have been voted into our cannon by common consent.  But Joseph Smith certainly made the statement.  

Based upon the fact that Joseph Smith knew and interacted with God on multiple occasions, I tend to take his point of view over anonymous internet opinions.  You just might need to do a little bit more research before coming up with your own ideas.  

 

That is all i'm saying. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by mikbone

[Klaymen]

15 hours ago, zil said:

Welcome, @Klaymen!

"that has not been revealed since the world was until now" is modifying "knowledge".  It is not modifying "Holy Spirit" or "unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost".

Ah, it looks like you are correct.  

[CV75]

14 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You believe it is useful.  How often do you use it in a non-academic setting?

Almost always, like when my wife asks me if her new dress is flattering or if I like so-and-so's new hairdo...

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Almost always, like when my wife asks me if her new dress is flattering or if I like so-and-so's new hairdo...

Now, that's cheating. 

And it's not diagramming.  It is using tricky syntax.  I don't imagine you getting your paper and pencil out and write out each word and place them on several lines for each part of speech and sentence...

Try telling me you do that every time your wife asks you questions like that.

You can argue that you use the "principles" of diagramming sentences.  But all that means is that you understand sentence structure, punctuation, and grammar.  That is not the graphical methodology of drawing arbitrary lines in arbitrary locations for each part you want to analyze so you can declare they are related to other portions of the sentence through a graphical representation of nothing related to the relationship.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Guest

[CV75]

13 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I can see where some of your confusion lies since I was responding to two Joseph Smith quotes, but I really was only referring to one. This is the JS quote I was questioning that @mikbone posted:

I've never heard that "the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.”

Do you accept this as official church doctrine?  I have not seen this validated anywhere by the Church itself.

I think it comports with our doctrine in that it is consistent with the plan of salvation, and using the modal verb "may" allows that it is the same passage that all righteous spirits go through. Considering the way people expressed themselves 200 years ago, accuracy in recording and other contexts, it may comport but not constitute that which is to be unitedly apportioned by those highest priesthood councils holding the keys to do so.

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Now, that's cheating. 

And it's not diagramming.  It is using tricky syntax.  I don't imagine you getting your paper and pencil out and write out each word and place them on several lines for each part of speech and sentence...

Try telling me you do that every time your wife asks you questions like that.

You can argue that you use the "principles" of diagramming sentences.  But all that means is that you understand sentence structure, punctuation, and grammar.  That is not the graphical methodology of drawing arbitrary lines in arbitrary locations for each part you want to analyze so you can declare they are related to other portions of the sentence through a graphical representation of nothing related to the relationship.

Oh yes, I most certainly, physically diagram with a pen and paper! I pretend I just got sick or something and say I'll be right back while I do the diagram. If we're in the car, I say I'll have to wait to see her standing up, can't remember the hairdo, etc.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Oh yes, I most certainly, physically diagram with a pen and paper! I pretend I just got sick or something and say I'll be right back while I do the diagram. If we're in the car, I say I'll have to wait to see her standing up, can't remember the hairdo, etc.

Uh-huh.