Brainwashing our Children with Religion

[Grunt]

4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

So it's shooting heroin if an LDS parent talks to their kids about other faiths, but depending on if open dialogue about religion takes place in another setting it might be okay? Not sure if I'm following you

Words mean something.  You specifically used the term "brainwashing".  You complained that you were never given a choice of faiths.  You blamed the church for your feelings of guilt for your sin.  You generally called into question the words of the Prophet.  

You are also moving the goalposts again.  What I pointed out above was the support for your thesis that we should teach our children other faiths and let them decide for themselves.  Christ didn't preach Buddhism.  

[clbent04]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Christ didn't preach Buddhism.  

And He also didn't live in a box.

[Grunt]

Just now, clbent04 said:

And He also didn't live in a box.

Again, you're moving the goal posts.  Nobody said anything about boxes.

[askandanswer]

42 minutes ago, Colirio said:

parents need to seek guidance from God in how best to raise, teach, love, guide, and help each individual child in their care. 

There's quite a lot that's already been made available from God through His servants.

[boxer]

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

As I said, I know you are.  Whether or not truth fears inquiry is irrelevant.  Children leave the church all the time.  Adults stop attending church and the temple.  They stop tithing.  Why give your children a reason?

I have limited time every day to teach my children about Heavenly Father.  I have limited amount of time each day to study scripture with my family.  Telling my kids "here are lots of different ideas, I believe this one.  You figure it out on your own" is NOT doing them any favors or setting them up for success.  

If you believe taking the limited time you have with your children and use it teaching them false doctrine then you probably aren't on as solid ground as you think.  

Very well said.  Thank you.

[let’s roll]

10 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's actually a good idea that your kids have a basic understanding of the outside world, that includes religions other than your own. They don't have to pray to Buddha/Ganesh/Zoroaster but they should know the basics. Sheltering your kids from other religions/lifestyles makes it easier for them to become prejudice against them. 

Besides, if you choose to not introduce your kids to other religions, you lose the right to preach about your own church to other families. 

Here’s the post Grunt was responding to when he made his heroin analogy.  I’m willing to accept his explanation of what he believes was the context of his response, acknowledging that a few of us read the response with the heroin analogy and didn’t understand it in the same context he described.

In fact, I understood Gator’s comment above about introducing children to, and not sheltering children from, the basic beliefs of other religion to include, or even be a direct reference to, the kind of spiritual discussions with our brothers and sisters of other faiths that Grunt says he endorses and participates in.  

I’m not looking to make anyone defensive, only to understand and be understood.

[askandanswer]

The existence of an Institute course entitled The Restored Gospel and World Religions ( https://www.lds.org/manual/institute-secondary-electives-student-readings-and-selected-course-outlines/the-restored-gospel-and-world-religions-course-outline?lang=eng) suggests it is possible to draw some conclusions about the church's view on the desirability  of learning about other religions.and the approach that should be taken.  I also have a 1997 copy of the Institute manual Religions of the World. From the Foreword on page ix it states "Latter-Day Saints are occasionally accused of being narrow-minded or unwilling to consider the beliefs of others. Such accusations may be true of Latter-day Saints who do not understand their own religion, but those who know the position of the church regarding the faith and beleifs of other people willingly allow them to "worship how, where or what they may."" 

[askandanswer]

Given how hard and how successfully worldly institutions are seeking to brain wash our children, perhaps a little brainwashing pushback from the church is not out of order. To oppose a force, sometimes you need to push back with an equal amount of force.  

[Colirio]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

There's quite a lot that's already been made available from God through His servants.

Absolutely. And we should be grateful and apply the instructions that we have received. 

 

This does not absolve us of our responsibilities to seek further light and knowledge from God on how best to apply these things in the lives of each of our children. 

[anatess2]

On 12/1/2018 at 5:19 PM, clbent04 said:

I would have appreciated being exposed to other walks of life and being encouraged to contemplate and internalize what I personally thought of all of it.  I wouldn't have felt as force feed as a kid if either one of my parents took the time to discuss outside-the-box topics. Even if I was still forced to go to church with them every Sunday, helping direct me to accept a belief system for myself with open dialogue about all religions would have gone a long ways.

I say, this is a privilege.  Or luxury.  The luxury to re-invent the wheel for every generation and going through the same mistakes our great great grandfathers already figured out and left as a legacy for the next generations.

The not-so-privileged (like us poor Filipinos) end up starving or dead while "learning things for ourselves".  And that's the good outcome.  The bad outcome is dragging our families down with us.

Christian Living is not just a template for "spiritual life".  It is just as much a template for a prosperous/peaceful/healthy mortal existence.

[anatess2]

On 12/1/2018 at 7:43 PM, MormonGator said:

My upbringing was deeply religious (Catholic). Catholic school-everything. Most (most, not all) of my friends were the same way. Out of the 19 of us who were in 8th grade, a grand total of 2 still practice. I got into this very conversation with a classmate recently. She's the only person from that time period in my life I still talk to, but she still speaks to the majority of our classmates.

My upbringing was devout Catholic.  Very religious complete with sculpted images of Saints on a carriage paraded around town with people following in procession and even a volunteer to be crucified, literally, every Good Friday.  Out of all my friends and family who were the same way, I'm the only one that is not Catholic anymore.  They are all still Catholic, if not devout, at least still attends Church, and all their children raised Catholic except for a few whose children decided to hang out with the "bad sort" and so they claim to be atheists because it's "the new fangled thing to do these days".  My dad would have whacked them upside the head.  But my cousins got into this new-age parenting thing where they think you're gonna end up in jail if you whack your kids upside the head.

[Manners Matter]

@clbent04 I haven't read the thread so my apologies if someone already made this point but in case it hasn't been brought up ---
Do you think parents/teachers are brainwashing kids when they teach that 1x1=1 or that the square root of 9 is 3 or cat is spelled c-a-t, etc? I just don't get how teaching religion is 'brainwashing' but the same attitude isn't applied to other things. 
As far as you feeling there was a lack of exposure to other religions, perhaps your parents thought it best to help establish a solid foundation knowing you could take a 'world religions' course in institute when you were older. Be grateful for parents that "did an outstanding job raising us and giving us all the love in the world".

Edited December 4, 2018 by Manners Matter

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Manners Matter said:

I haven't read the thread so my apologies if someone already made this point but in case it hasn't been brought up ---
Do you think parents/teachers are brainwashing kids when they teach that 1x1=1 or that the square root of 9 is 3 or cat is spelled c-a-t, etc? I just don't get how teaching religion is 'brainwashing' but the same attitude isn't applied to other things. 

RIGHT???

It's like they think the restored gospel is like deciding which is better, Coke or Pepsi, or Reeboks or Nike...

[Guest]

On 12/1/2018 at 4:19 PM, clbent04 said:

I would have appreciated being exposed to other walks of life and being encouraged to contemplate and internalize what I personally thought of all of it.  I wouldn't have felt as force feed as a kid if either one of my parents took the time to discuss outside-the-box topics.

So, you didn't go to public school?  You didn't watch TV?  You had NO exposure to anything outside the home?  What?  Were you homeschooled or something?  Your parents must have been fascists!!!

On 12/1/2018 at 7:41 PM, clbent04 said:

Besides feeling brainwashed, the other negative experience I've had from religion is experiencing an unhealthy, overly burdensome amount guilt. Over the years I've come to learn I process and deal with guilt in a way that most people don't. 

Doesn't this sound like the problem was more about how you reacted than how others treated you?  As an example: How do you feel about the Politically Correct culture today?  What about people who are easily triggered?  How is guilt any different?

Quote

This has led me to develop mild if not sometimes severe depression over the last 5 years.

We've had discussions about this.  The thing about depression is not really the triggering event.  It is about our own thought processes.  Perseverant  thinking is the root cause of clinical depression, not the event.  Learn to break the cycle.  Create roadblocks to the cycle.  If you have perseverant thinking, the cause could have been anything.  This is just one thing you latched onto.  I also have a hunch that you also have many other triggers.  But it goes back to guilt.  Even if the triggering event was something completely unrelated to the gospel, you somehow link it to the gospel and how you're not worthy of the Celestial Kingdom.  Am I right?  That's how depression works.  If you think about it long enough, you'll find that to be true.

On 12/1/2018 at 7:58 PM, clbent04 said:

Parents who don't teach their children to think for themselves are leaving their children defenseless for any kind of brainwashing to happen be it at school, church, or wherever.  I want to work with my 2-year old as she gets older to help her develop a healthy questioning for all things.  I will lead her the best I can with what I believe, but I never would want her to blindly follow anything including being a Latter-day Saint just because I am.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with these sentiments.  But couching it in the background of accusing pretty much everyone of brainwashing their kids is the hard pill to swallow. 

I've gone through every one of your posts here.  This is the summary of it all.

You're basically saying,"Use the Socratic Method, y'all!"

That was a fine thing for Socrates.  And if you're going into philosophy, that is fine.  But this method has great weaknesses in many other fields (including religion).

Look up the Socratic Method and come back.  We can have a discussion then.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Guest

[clbent04]

9 hours ago, Manners Matter said:

As far as you feeling there was a lack of exposure to other religions, perhaps your parents thought it best to help establish a solid foundation knowing you could take a 'world religions' course in institute when you were older. Be grateful for parents that "did an outstanding job raising us and giving us all the love in the world".

Taking a world's religion class when you're 16, 17, 18... is a great idea.  But I'm addressing encouraging open dialogue about religion at a younger age, and equally important, letting your kids know why it's important to you that you bring them with you to church every Sunday. 

This whole post addresses the negativity that can arise from parents living strictly by the "because-I-said-so" rule.  Let your kids feel valued for the individuals they are.  Get to know them and what they think and feel on a personal level. That doesn't mean they'll end up having a say so if they want to go to church with you, but a little open discussion will go a long ways with how they remember you treating them.

Edited December 4, 2018 by clbent04

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

This whole post addresses the negativity that can arise from parents living strictly by the "because-I-said-so" rule.

I feel sorry for you already.  Do you really want your kids to feel like they are your equals?  They aren't.  They don't know anything.  And it's worse when these children who depend on you to know things are being told that you don't know anything either.

MUCH of a young child's upbringing should include a healthy dose of "because-I-said-so."  As they get older we gradually dial it down a bit as we teach them to gradually take more responsibility on their own and make choices on their own.

But the idea that you can have your little children make most of their choices themselves with people all around them saying,"I don't know" is damaging for your children.

[clbent04]

Just now, Carborendum said:

But the idea that you can have your little children make most of their choices themselves with people all around them saying,"I don't know" is damaging for your children.

Never said that. Please reread. 

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Taking a world's religion class when you're 16, 17, 18... is a great idea.  But I'm addressing encouraging open dialogue about religion at a younger age, and equally important, letting your kids know why it's important to you that you bring them with you to church every Sunday. 

This whole post addresses the negativity that can arise from parents living strictly by the "because-I-said-so" rule.  Let your kids feel valued for the individuals they are.  Get to know them and what they think and feel on a personal level. That doesn't mean they'll end up having a say so if they want to go to church with you, but a little open discussion will go a long ways with how they remember you treating them.

Meh.  That's parenting style differences.  Asian families don't do that new-fangled liberal parenting style of - let's offer kids choices!  Nah.  That could mean your kids die.  That's why children are more advantaged in a 2-parent-with-2-genders household because children learn by absorption of parental actions and learning from it.  Parents don't have to explain why they do things.  Parents inadvertently teach by example.  It doesn't matter if the parents teach lessons of "love and kindness" if they are not loving and kind.  The children will learn from their actions more than their words.  The child progression is mimicry in the early years then they learn eventually - if they are so willing - why they do things the way they do because it is the natural progression of children to go through the boundary-expansion stage.  That's why you grew up eventually knowing the WHY today even if your parents didn't sit you down to say, "Look little Johnny, this is why." 

That's why strong close-knit generational families produce successful children because children learn through TRADITIONS (legacies passed on by those who already walked that path) expanding the examples set by parents into a FAMILY IDENTITY.  Sitting down for open discussion, giving children a wide array of options, is a LUXURY OF RICH SOCIETIES.  And I posit that such a parenting style is the reason you have a bunch of useless millennials today.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

Never said that. Please reread. 

Not all at once.  But you clearly drew the line and said that you can't tell them what to believe about God.  How can you declare "I KNOW" while at the same time saying "I'm not telling you it is a fact."

If you tell them it is a fact, then you're telling them what to believe.  They still have a choice to believe you.  But you can't have it both ways.

[clbent04]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Not all at once.  But you clearly drew the line and said that you can't tell them what to believe about God.  How can you declare "I KNOW" while at the same time saying "I'm not telling you it is a fact."

Never said that either. We need to testify of the truthfulness of the gospel to our children.

[anatess2]

Just now, clbent04 said:

Never said that either. We need to testify of the truthfulness of the gospel to our children.

Didn't you just call this brainwashing?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Never said that either. We need to testify of the truthfulness of the gospel to our children.

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Didn't you just call this brainwashing?

Yes, he did.

Clbent,

You keep saying "I didn't say that." Well, what ARE you saying? 

• Is your "belief" knowledge? or not?
• If it is "knowledge" then aren't you putting it forth as fact?
• If you put it forth as fact, are you not telling them what to believe?
• If you tell them what to believe, you call that brainwashing.

Where is this line of logic false?  What am I missing because everything you're saying says one thing, and then you go and say you never said that.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Guest

[clbent04]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Asian families don't do that new-fangled liberal parenting style of - let's offer kids choices!  Nah.  That could mean your kids die. 

I'm not saying I would be offering kids a choice in the matter if they go to church with you. Please reread if you would like to discuss further. If you want to create a post about offering kids choices and making everything a free-for-all, please go ahead. But you're on the wrong thread if that's the case.

[anatess2]

Just now, clbent04 said:

I'm not saying I would be offering kids a choice in the matter if they go to church with you. Please reread if you would like to discuss further. If you want to create a post about offering kids choices and making everything a free-for-all, please go ahead. But you're on the wrong thread if that's the case.

Hah hah... You think teaching kids about all the other religions makes them such obedient disciples of your particular choice of religion... You have kids bro?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm not saying I would be offering kids a choice in the matter if they go to church with you. Please reread if you would like to discuss further. If you want to create a post about offering kids choices and making everything a free-for-all, please go ahead. But you're on the wrong thread if that's the case.

Consider this.  If you've got this many people who (you claim) are misreading or misunderstanding you, you might want to consider that it is you have have misspoken rather than others who are simply not listening.

Why don't you back up, gather your thoughts, and try stating what your real point actually is.

The truth here is that you have wandered a bit.  Part of that is that you're beginning to see some weaknesses in your position that you hadn't considered before.  But instead of admitting to the weaknesses, you move the goal posts so that it didn't miss those other thoughts.

So, go ahead and change your position, but admit that it is because other people have brought up points you missed.  It's called learning.  We all do it.  And if you don't, your level of pride rivals my own.  And trust me.  That's a bad place to be.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Guest