Completely crazy anti-Mormon novel

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yay - anti fiction!   If you get through to the end and are still unsated, I'd recommend this one:

The full title is, get this:

It tells quite a story.  Dude wakes up and tries to get out of Utah, so they sick Porter Rockwell on him.  Porter is about to kill him, but dude offers him some booze, which is so good apparently, that Porter lets him go as a gesture of respect for a fellow whiskey drinker.   1884 was a good year for romanticized fiction loosely based on names that occasionally made the news back east.

 

Sounds like the premise of a pretty cool horror movie.

[Just_A_Guy]

No one uses “Esquire” anymore . . .  

[Guest]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This may be a reference to the Retrenchment Movement which was initiated under Brigham Young in the late 1860's. It had some sort of similarities to a reformation.

This is what th eEncyclopaedia of Mormonism says about it:

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Retrenchment_Association

The retrenchment movement, conceived in 1869 by President Brigham Young to encourage LDS women to "spend more time in moral, mental and spiritual cultivation, and less upon fashion and the vanities of the world" (Woman's Exponent 11 [Sept. 15, 1882]:59), spawned two similar but distinct organizations. Mary Isabella horne, appointed by President Young to head the initial movement, established semimonthly women's meetings in Salt Lake City to promote the "reformation." Shortly thereafter, Brigham Young organized his daughters into a Young Ladies Retrenchment Association as a model for similar organizations in each ward of the Church, appointing Emma Young Empey as president (see Young Women). Though the young women's retrenchment societies held independent ward meetings, the parent association, calling itself the Senior and Junior Cooperative Retrenchment Association, remained a single, overarching entity that superintended the subsidiary societies while pursuing its own agenda.

Ok.  So, where's all the blood and gore?  I mean... I know that teenage girls can get pretty violent over the fashions of the day, but... You know, don't EVER wear the same dress as the other girl -- especially if you look prettier in it than she does.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

No one uses “Esquire” anymore . . .  

I knew a lawyer in Northern California who used that term on his business cards.  I first met him when I was about 30 years old.  That was the first exposure to it in polite modern usage (i.e. I knew the ancient title as well as "William S. Preston, esq.")  But never anywhere else.  So, that was when I looked it up and found that it referred to lawyers.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Okay.  just checking.  The existence of the vigilante group the Danites is pretty well documented.  But yeah, what the Avenging Angel portrays is...well, the Danites were neither organized nor intelligent enough to pull off that kind of work.

I wanted to complete the thought I had earlier so I'm completely honest.

I was referring to the Utah period of supposed Danite activites.  I was not really up on the Missouri period. 

For the Utah period, I had read of a court case where a disaffected Saint accused some mishap on Danite activity.  And his case was brought to court to find that not only was there no evidence, but everyone he accused of being a Danite had strong alibis against his accusations.

That's what being anxiously engaged in a good cause does for you.

[Just_A_Guy]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I knew a lawyer in Northern California who used that term on his business cards.  I first met him when I was about 30 years old.  That was the first exposure to it in polite modern usage (i.e. I knew the ancient title as well as "William S. Preston, esq.")  But never anywhere else.  So, that was when I looked it up and found that it referred to lawyers.

IIRC it can technically be used to refer to any adult (male?), but lawyers seem to have sort of co-opted the term.  Speaking anecdotally, many of the lawyers I know were very particular about using the suffix right out of law school but then tended to drop it as they became more experienced/established/secure.  

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

IIRC it can technically be used to refer to any adult (male?), but lawyers seem to have sort of co-opted the term.  Speaking anecdotally, many of the lawyers I know were very particular about using the suffix right out of law school but then tended to drop it as they became more experienced/established/secure.  

That's interesting.  It actually does fit him.  He wasn't active as a lawyer.  His legal status as a lawyer was incidental to his primary job (Insurance Broker).  It just made things a lot easier for him when he could do some legal work himself when his job required one.

[Maureen]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Maureen, to just float that and then skitter away without further elaboration does a real disservice to truth.  

Yes, the committee in question is known to have clipped public news stories about high-profile Mormon dissidents and passed them on to local leadership.  No, it does not “monitor all communications, including emails” of particular targets; and never has.  

Anyone can google Strengthening Church Member Committee.

Anyway, this is a mystery novel. The author can take any historical element and tweak it in her story as she likes; it's fiction after all.

M.

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Anyway, this is a mystery novel. The author can take any historical element and tweak it in her story as she likes; it's fiction after all.

Did someone suggest otherwise?

JAG's objection was not to the fact that people have the right to misrepresent history. Rather, he was objecting to your less-than-truthful portrayal of the Church's supposed "monitoring" of its members. Your response is a non sequitur misdirection.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

it can technically be used to refer to any adult (male?)

Cool!

The Folk Prophet, Esquire

[Maureen]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

Did someone suggest otherwise?

JAG's objection was not to the fact that people have the right to misrepresent history. Rather, he was objecting to your less-than-truthful portrayal of the Church's supposed "monitoring" of its members. Your response is a non sequitur misdirection.

Are you and JAG assuming you can read my mind and intent just because I quoted a paragraph from @Sunday21's post? The main word that put it all together was 'committee'. All I did was bring to her attention that a committee she thought had to be very large, that to me seemed to have similar qualities that were described, does exist. I only gave a name. If anyone else is curious about the details, all they have to do is google.

M.

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Are you and JAG assuming you can read my mind and intent just because I quoted a paragraph from @Sunday21's post? The main word that put it all together was 'committee'. All I did was bring to her attention that a committee she thought had to be very large, that to me seemed to have similar qualities that were described, does exist. I only gave a name. If anyone else is curious about the details, all they have to do is google.

Maureen, I have interacted with you for years. Protest your innocence all you want. I cannot judge your heart, but I certainly can recognize your actions. The dog only bites you so many times before you can confidently say, "Yeah, that dog bites."

Here was the context of your remark:

15 hours ago, Maureen said:

16 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

...Next: Apparently we have a committee that monitors all the communications including emails of suspected apostates. That would have to be a huge committee!...

Have you never heard of Strenghening Church Members Committee?

No indication, then or now, that you were in any sense joking. Sunday21 remarked that the anti-Mormon hater made up a ridiculous allegation, and your response was to try to confirm that, yes, the allegation was actually true.

Seriously, Maureen. Show a modicum of integrity. Own up to your actions. You insult everyone's intelligence and make yourself look duplicitous and foolish by pretending that, hey, you were only naming something that might possibly have a tangential relationship.

Or do you honestly believe that the "Strengthening the Membership" committee "monitors all the communications including emails of suspected apostates"? If so, you are perhaps more honest, though certainly less intelligent, than I have given you credit for.

[Maureen]

@Vort, methinks you do protest too much. Or in other words, you are over reacting, which is typical of you.

M.

[NeuroTypical]

28 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I only gave a name. If anyone else is curious about the details, all they have to do is google.

I said something like this once, as a guest, in a class my local evangelical mega-church was offering, named "Are Mormons Christian?".  They put the class on hold for several weeks, then actively dis-invited me from further attendance.  Apparently, they didn't want their audience going to any of those tainted lds sources as folks went about trying to answer the question posed by the class title.  Honestly, it was more of a "Here's why Mormons aren't Christian" class, but the people in charge disagreed with me on that point.

Anyway, hey everyone - yes indeed - google is a gateway to further information on many things.  When it comes to the SMC, however, it's pretty much just the gateway to what a bunch of church critics have to opine about the SMC.  With little to nothing by way of actual factual information.

LDS apologist Daniel Peterson once wrote a bit about his involvement in the SMC, but I can't find it.  The gist of it: Some prominent LDS guy was struggling with his testimony and publishing things about it, and someone called Peterson and asked if he'd see if he could meet with the guy, and address some of his issues.  I don't remember if any meeting took place or not. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Maureen said:

@Vort, methinks you do protest too much. Or in other words, you are over reacting, which is typical of you.

...actually, that's not at all what "the lady doth protest too much, methinks" and its derivative phrases mean...

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I said something like this once, as a guest, in a class my local evangelical mega-church was offering, named "Are Mormons Christian?".  They put the class on hold for several weeks, then actively dis-invited me from further attendance.  Apparently, they didn't want their audience going to any of those tainted lds sources as folks went about trying to answer the question posed by the class title.  Honestly, it was more of a "Here's why Mormons aren't Christian" class, but the people in charge disagreed with me on that point.

Anyway, hey everyone - yes indeed - google is a gateway to further information on many things.  When it comes to the SMC, however, it's pretty much just the gateway to what a bunch of church critics have to opine about the SMC.  With little to nothing by way of actual factual information.

LDS apologist Daniel Peterson once wrote a bit about his involvement in the SMC, but I can't find it.  The gist of it: Some prominent LDS guy was struggling with his testimony and publishing things about it, and someone called Peterson and asked if he'd see if he could meet with the guy, and address some of his issues.  I don't remember if any meeting took place or not. 

I never heard of it until @Maureen mentioned it.  What does it do? What is it? I prefer NOT to Google it for the reasons NT said. 

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, Maureen said:

@Vort, methinks you do protest too much. Or in other words, you are over reacting, which is typical of you.

M.

Yeah @Vort!! What's the big deal with getting bit by a dog again and again? You're misinterpreting the dog's intentions here. The dog is the victim.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

...actually, that's not at all what "the lady doth protest too much, methinks" and its derivative phrases mean...

... and that begs the question...😎

Edited December 3, 2018 by Guest

[Maureen]

21 minutes ago, Vort said:

...actually, that's not at all what "the lady doth protest too much, methinks" and its derivative phrases mean...

I didn't call you a lady. 😊

M.

[Guest Scott]

8 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I gave up the book wen it claimed that members were more likely to commit business fraud. 

There is some truth to that.  LDS members tend to be trusting of other LDS members.  People have taken advantage of that fact to defraud church members.   

Here's an article in Deseret News:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865665746/Utahs-fraud-epidemic-Victims-share-anger-embarrassment-hurt.html

[Iggy]

Well, I googled it, and here is the link to Wikipedia about it.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strengthening_Church_Members_Committee

Doesn't come across to me as the church has people monitoring media sites, private emails, or phone calls. It does come across as the church does monitor NEWS stories, letters sent to the church from those who are angry with the church and/or leaders. Who are very close to becoming apostate.

Don't know why this should be alarming to anyone.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

There is some truth to that.  LDS members tend to be trusting of other LDS members.  People have taken advantage of that fact to defraud church members.   

Here's an article in Deseret News:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865665746/Utahs-fraud-epidemic-Victims-share-anger-embarrassment-hurt.html

Utah is famous for affinity fraud. It's a massive problem out there. 

[Just_A_Guy]

34 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I didn't call you a lady. 😊

M.

Oh, you’ll like mine better—none of mine are gentlemen! (With apologies to Cary Grant . . .)

And responding to your larger point—sure, it’s fiction; but when the OP scoffed at the idea that such a committee even existed, the truth was important enough—even in a fictional context—for you to correct the record.  Which is fine, IMHO—like it or not, many of our perceptions of the past are heavily influenced by the historical fiction genre, and it’s a great way to get into actual history.  All I’m saying is, if we’re gonna correct the record; let’s make the record correct.   

[Midwest LDS]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

I never heard of it until @Maureen mentioned it.  What does it do? What is it? I prefer NOT to Google it for the reasons NT said. 

Basically, it monitors the news for examples of open apostasy by members, and forwards that information to the members' local ecclesiastical leader. In addition to the link provided by @Iggy there is also an article about it at Fair Mormon https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_Church_discipline/Strengthening_Church_Members_Committee. Anti's like to proclaim ridiculous stories about how this committee hunts down "apostates" and punishes them for leaving the church. In reality, all they do is provide evidence to local leaders of major examples of apostasy. The only members who will ever have any interactions with the committee are those who set themselves or their work up to directly attack the church in the news like Kate Kelly of Ordain Women. They just provide information to local leaders to aid church discipline, they have no part in the actual discipline process.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Basically, it monitors the news for examples of open apostasy by members, and forwards that information to the members' local ecclesiastical leader. In addition to the link provided by @Iggy there is also an article about it at Fair Mormon https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_Church_discipline/Strengthening_Church_Members_Committee. Anti's like to proclaim ridiculous stories about how this committee hunts down "apostates" and punishes them for leaving the church. In reality, all they do is provide evidence to local leaders of major examples of apostasy. The only members who will ever have any interactions with the committee are those who set themselves or their work up to directly attack the church in the news like Kate Kelly of Ordain Women. They just provide information to local leaders to aid church discipline, they have no part in the actual discipline process.

Very cool. Thanks!