Faithful vs Less Faithful

[Grunt]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Bunch of sharks in the water smelling for blood. How about instead of constantly trying to take digs at each other, we give everyone the benefit of the doubt for what they write? Would it be so hard to consider what others posted more thoughtfully like @Carborendum did just now?

Honestly, if I wanted to, I could be mad dogging you guys a lot more for the things you say. @Carborendum gave a great example of how @The Folk Prophet‘s words could’ve been twisted around on him just as easily. Here’s another example: does anyone actually read what @Grunt writes? This whole thread is about the guy’s intolerance for those less faithful than him. Maybe a little self-righteous, close-minded, anyone, anyone? I understand the guy is the darling of this forum with his conversion story, but at what point do we stop with the preferential treatment? At what point do we stop picking sides, start treating everyone as equals, and just focus on sharing more in the common love we have for the gospel? 

I’ve actually exhibited restraint by only selectively responding to the more ridiculous statements by some users. But why do some users feel the need to pounce on EVERY. SINGLE. LITTLE. THING? I’m just tired of all the digs. It’s making me want to treat everyone else the same. 

Edited.  

Never mind.  I'm not biting such an obvious troll.  I second what @The Folk Prophet said.  

Edited December 9, 2018 by Grunt

[Grunt]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

As for me and my house...

This.  I speak what's on my mind.  People aren't required to like or agree with it.   

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

Not trying to pick on you, just a comment on my personal perception. From my perspective, everyone is biased somehow or other. Especially, when posting on the topic of religion, people are going to be making judgments based on their interpretation of personal experiences that have lead them to certain conclusions. If I am posting anything from the perspective of believing the church is true my bias will come out that I believe the church is true. I would much rather be labeled as respectful of other posters, than unbiased.

That being said, I feel like I'm getting the sense from you that you feel on the outs in the community and that your comments are preferentially attacked and/or ignored. I can't speak to what others may or may not be doing in this regard, but I can tell you I have often felt unwelcome here, too. I'm not sure if it's because I don't communicate well, I've made too many enemies, post too infrequently to be a known commodity, rub people the wrong way, or simply have nothing useful to contribute. Some people are bullies. When it comes to topics people are really emotionally charged about sometimes they show forth excessive passion and don't realize they are being bullies. I've probably done this myself. I'd offer some advice to try and help you feel more wanted, but I'm the wrong messenger, as I am also a misfit in the community - and I "side with the Brethren."

I'm sorry you feel this way, and I apologize if I ever said anything to you that has made you feel unwelcome. 

Part of the issue in my view is that we don't reach out to people we disagree with, especially online. If we disagree with this or that person, we write them off and don't try to get to know them.  I'm 100% guilty of this. I put my pride first and forgot that there is a person on the other side of the computer. If we remembered that, it would help all of us. 

It's easy to act rudely/obnoxious/holier than thou over the computer. I am 100% convinced that if we acted that way in "real life" (not that online forums aren't real life) we'd be the loneliest person alive. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by MormonGator

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

Not trying to pick on you, just a comment on my personal perception. From my perspective, everyone is biased somehow or other. Especially, when posting on the topic of religion, people are going to be making judgments based on their interpretation of personal experiences that have lead them to certain conclusions. If I am posting anything from the perspective of believing the church is true my bias will come out that I believe the church is true. I would much rather be labeled as respectful of other posters, than unbiased.

That being said, I feel like I'm getting the sense from you that you feel on the outs in the community and that your comments are preferentially attacked and/or ignored. I can't speak to what others may or may not be doing in this regard, but I can tell you I have often felt unwelcome here, too. I'm not sure if it's because I don't communicate well, I've made too many enemies, post too infrequently to be a known commodity, rub people the wrong way, or simply have nothing useful to contribute. Some people are bullies. When it comes to topics people are really emotionally charged about sometimes they show forth excessive passion and don't realize they are being bullies. I've probably done this myself. I'd offer some advice to try and help you feel more wanted, but I'm the wrong messenger, as I am also a misfit in the community - and I "side with the Brethren."

That stinks.  I honestly don't recall any of your posts or comments, so you aren't a misfit to me.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I believe that the most righteous men on Earth, that is, the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency, sometimes spend many hours, in meetings spread out over many weeks and months, counselling together on matters on which they cannot, at first, initially agree.

This is not because it would be "boring" otherwise, however.

9 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I believe that counselling together will continue to be a common form of behaviour in the post-existence,

Perhaps. But it will, also, not be because it would be "boring" otherwise.

9 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I believe that we can and will have our own opinion on different matters, and that the difference between opinions does not equate to one opinion being better than, or more righteous than, another opinion.

The example of Christ and the Father implies otherwise. They are one in looks, one in thought, one in feelings, one in intent. There is no difference of opinion between them.

[SpiritDragon]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm sorry you feel this way, and I apologize if I ever said anything to you that has made you feel unwelcome. 

Part of the issue in my view is that we don't reach out to people we disagree with, especially online. If we disagree with this or that person, we write them off and don't try to get to know them.  I'm 100% guilty of this. I put my pride first and forgot that there is a person on the other side of the computer. If we remembered that, it would help all of us. 

It's easy to act rudely/obnoxious/holier than thou over the computer. I am 100% convinced that if we acted that way in "real life" (not that online forums aren't real life) we'd be the loneliest person alive. 

I don't recall you ever acting the part of a bully or doing anything in particular to make me feel unwanted. You're one of the most agreeable people I know even though we don't see eye to eye all the time. I just know that my skepticism of vaccine safety and efficacy is a hot button for you - and I get it people get passionate about things (I don't consider myself antivax for the record, I consider myself pro medical choice and informed consent. My biggest concern with mandatory vaccines is the question of what other medical procedures will become mandatory if we don't draw a line in the sand for personal freedom to make choices... even if the rest of think they are boneheaded)

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, SpiritDragon said:

I don't recall you ever acting the part of a bully or doing anything in particular to make me feel unwanted. You're one of the most agreeable people I know even though we don't see eye to eye all the time. I just know that my skepticism of vaccine safety and efficacy is a hot button for you - and I get it people get passionate about things (I don't consider myself antivax for the record, I consider myself pro medical choice and informed consent. My biggest concern with mandatory vaccines is the question of what other medical procedures will become mandatory if we don't draw a line in the sand for personal freedom to make choices... even if the rest of think they are boneheaded)

I appreciate the kind words, especially because we disagree on issues we both feel passionately about. In the future, I'll try to keep my pro vaccine views moderated and remember that not everyone agrees with me. Thank you for letting me know that bothers you. 

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You yourself said that you profit from daily gospel discussion.

I profit from engaging in gospel thought. "Discussion" is a means to that end. A bunch of random views expressed by random folk on the world wide inter-web.... Profitable? I'm not so sure.

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Would it be so profitable if we all came here to say the exact same things?

If we all spoke as Christ would, then yes.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 hours ago, clbent04 said:

@Carborendum gave a great example of how @The Folk Prophet‘s words could’ve been twisted around on him just as easily.

And I certainly didn't take it as a "dig" at me. I simply explain myself.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Why are grown adults picking teams?

Who, exactly, is on who's "team"?

I cannot think of a single person I haven't had "debate" with about something or other. The only difference is that some respond maturely and thoughtfully and some don't.

(Granted, some respond thoughtfully and maturely one time and like a big baby the next. I count myself in that camp.)

[SpiritDragon]

5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

That stinks.  I honestly don't recall any of your posts or comments, so you aren't a misfit to me.

I suppose that answers things a little; It puts me squarely in the not posting enough to be a known commodity category. That or just not having any insights worthy of remembering. I would hope to be considered among the faithful.

[Grunt]

7 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I suppose that answers things a little; It puts me squarely in the not posting enough to be a known commodity category. That or just not having any insights worthy of remembering. I would hope to be considered among the faithful.

 I remember you posting, but if I can't remember the topic of your posts it probably means we typically agree.  Particularly if you don't post often.  I don't think there is an "in crowd".  I think it's mostly that there are a few posters who are incredibly faithful, insightful, and very good at expressing it so they stick out.  Others are trolls or contrary, so they stick out.  Most just blend in and add to or detract from the content, but not in a dramatic way, so they just blend in.   

I'm on a kick against trolls and frauds for some reason.  It's not a good thing at all.  It doesn't do me or anyone else any favors, but it causes me to stick out. I also post like I talk in person:  very directly and what's on my mind.  It can be offputting for some.  I've found a few spots where I can interact without that type of negativity so it's likely a matter of time before I take an extended break.  Most of my discussions with people from this forum are on Facebook, anyway.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Grunt

[SpiritDragon]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Don't jump to conclusions.  I remember you posting, but if I can't remember the topic of your posts it probably means we typically agree.  Particularly if you don't post often.  I don't think there is an "in crowd".  I think it's mostly that there are a few posters who are incredibly faithful, insightful, and very good at expressing it so they stick out.  Others are trolls or contrary, so they stick out.  Most just blend in and add to or detract from the content, but not in a dramatic way, so they just blend in.   

I'm on a kick against trolls and frauds for some reason.  It's not a good thing at all.  It doesn't do me or anyone else any favors, but it causes me to stick out.  I've found a few spots where I can interact without that type of negativity so it's likely a matter of time before I take an extended break.  Most of my discussions with people from this forum are on Facebook, anyway.

Thanks for clarifying. I am definitely guilty of misunderstanding intent. I have no idea whether there is an in crowd or not and I'm certainly not trying to create a pity party for myself. I just appreciate how @clbent04 could be feeling on the outside. I'm good with blending in as long as blending in is in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I hope you can find the peace you need to either address the frauds in a way that is productive for you or to be able to let go of this kick you're going through. 

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

As for me and my house...

Again. Why? What value does this add other than trying to divide us further? 

[clbent04]

3 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

That being said, I feel like I'm getting the sense from you that you feel on the outs in the community and that your comments are preferentially attacked and/or ignored. I can't speak to what others may or may not be doing in this regard, but I can tell you I have often felt unwelcome here, too. 

You're good in my books, @SpiritDragon. I like what you post and your respectful manner of communication. You and I had a brief disagreement in the new LDS Hymnal thread, but I believe we were both respectful while helping each other understand our different perspectives. And I can tell at the heart of everything you post that it's coming from a positive place.

Edited December 9, 2018 by clbent04

[clbent04]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

I'm on a kick against trolls and frauds for some reason.  It's not a good thing at all. 

Not your place to judge. Quit acting like you're the authority on who's sincere and not sincere with what they post. Just let the bitterness and resentfulness go. It's toxic. You'll be a better person finding a more positive center with how you respond to those you deem less worthy than yourself.

Focus on lifting others up who might hang lower than you rather than gripe about how some aren't as faithful as you. Not trying to be mean. I just want you to hear yourself speak and realize what you're saying. It's toxic. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by clbent04

[The Folk Prophet]

29 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Again. Why? What value does this add other than trying to divide us further? 

Why does it divide us for me to proclaim that I chose the Lord's side? 

[clbent04]

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Why does it divide us for me to proclaim that I chose the Lord's side? 

I'm not sure if your acting naive, or if you really didn't mean to try and take another dig. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt by asking for clarification.

It seemed obvious to me what you were insinuating when you responded with that quote. I asked at what point do we stop choosing sides in reference to the biased and preferential treatment some users exhibit on this site. You responded that as for you and your house, [you serve the Lord].

What's left unsaid here but implied? That you serve the Lord and I don't? Even if you weren't implying that (which I believe you were), how is your response helpful to what I was actually asking?

Edited December 9, 2018 by clbent04

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

That you serve the Lord and I don't?

Holy paranoia Batman!

11 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

how is your response helpful to what I was actually asking?

You want to assume, for some reason, that every time I say something that isn't in agreement with you, half the time when I'm not even responding to you, that it's a personal "dig". It's not. I say what I say because I am speaking what I belive to be truth - teaching, exhorting, discussing, defending it, etc.

The 'helpful' idea is to point out that attempting to speak and sustain the Lord's truth isn't personal. The fact that you take it personally is your problem. The solution is for you to stop taking it personally.

You have this weird idea that I or others have formed some sort of team against you. Weird. I haven't joined any team but God's. Anyone who says something that I consider potentially problematic as it related to God's purposes and kingdom has just as good a shot of hearing my critique as anyone else. That doesn't mean that because I think a point they've made needs clarification or correction that I believe they're on team Satan. 

As it relates here, I believe the implication that sameness is boring is potentially harmful as an idea because of the fact that we have all been commanded to be the same as Christ, who is the same as The Father. It wasn't a personal "dig" at mormongator and it certainly wasn't a personal dig at you. 

The fact that it led carb and mg to clarify is good, because the clarification was needed.

[clbent04]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The 'helpful' idea is to point out that attempting to speak and sustain the Lord's truth isn't personal. The fact that you take it personally is your problem. The solution is for you to stop taking it personally.

Since not everything you write is clearly innocuous, you might see why I was confused. Maybe the more I get to know you the better I'll understand the things you leave unsaid.

I'll take your word for it. Thanks for clarifying.

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The example of Christ and the Father implies otherwise. They are one in looks, one in thought, one in feelings, one in intent. There is no difference of opinion between them.

Usually, yes, but perhaps not always

Luke 22:42  Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
 

[Grunt]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Holy paranoia Batman!

You want to assume, for some reason, that every time I say something that isn't in agreement with you, half the time when I'm not even responding to you, that it's a personal "dig". It's not. I say what I say because I am speaking what I belive to be truth - teaching, exhorting, discussing, defending it, etc.

The 'helpful' idea is to point out that attempting to speak and sustain the Lord's truth isn't personal. The fact that you take it personally is your problem. The solution is for you to stop taking it personally.

You have this weird idea that I or others have formed some sort of team against you. Weird. I haven't joined any team but God's. Anyone who says something that I consider potentially problematic as it related to God's purposes and kingdom has just as good a shot of hearing my critique as anyone else. That doesn't mean that because I think a point they've made needs clarification or correction that I believe they're on team Satan. 

As it relates here, I believe the implication that sameness is boring is potentially harmful as an idea because of the fact that we have all been commanded to be the same as Christ, who is the same as The Father. It wasn't a personal "dig" at mormongator and it certainly wasn't a personal dig at you. 

The fact that it led carb and mg to clarify is good, because the clarification was needed.

Very well said.  If people hear His word and feel judged, mirror time is probably called for.  

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Since not everything you write is clearly innocuous

Innocuous is often in the eye of the beholder.

 

[clbent04]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Innocuous is often in the eye of the beholder.

Or we’ve just outright acknowledged we both have made snarky comments.

This is me respecting your request to give you the benefit of the doubt for any future misunderstandings between us, and to dial down the snarkiness. 

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Usually, yes, but perhaps not always

Luke 22:42  Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
 

I, for one, believe this to be an example being set by the Savior of obedience.  I don't believe for a second that Jesus had any desire to skip out on the atonement and leave us all doomed. This wasn't "counselling". This was Christ setting an example of obedience.

Do you believe that God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, but that His only begotten son didn't so love the world quite as much?