Church Welfare


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3 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is the point of asking for help from the Bishops Storehouse If the Bishop and Relief Society President are just going to give a guilt trip every time? Especially when you pay your tithing every time and give a fast offering too.

If you need help, you need help.  It has zero bearing over your tithe payments or fast offerings.  The bolded statement above is something I learned when my dad got sick with cancer.  I did everything I can do for my dad and he was still mad at me because he wanted to go home (which means he will die).  I became resentful of my dad's ingratitude until I finally smacked myself out of my self-focus to realize... I didn't do all those things for my dad so my dad will thank me!  I did it for my dad because I love him!

So you should pay your tithes and fast offerings with your right hand and not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.

You can't control what your Bishop or RS President does.  You do have control over how you react to them.  Feeling guilt tripped may be a sign that your humility needs more humility.

 

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The point of asking for church assistance, is to receive temporary aid.  The church will do two things - provide the aid, and work with you to ensure it's temporary.   It's a sensitive subject, needing both the seeker and the provider(s) to be gentle and mature.  In my role as finance clerk, I've seen lucifer manage to crowbar some inappropriate shame into this process on more than one occasion.  People get their feelings hurt.  They confuse advice on how to do things different, with an attack on their character.  I admit the possibility that maybe an RS pres or bishop gets frustrated and speaks out of that frustration, instead of the pure love they usually carry. 

I've clerked for 3 bishops.  I call them bishop Spiritual, bishop Blunt, and bishop Helpful.  Each one of them had a different approach to how to help members with temporal matters.  From my limited and incomplete view, each bishop had 95% of the members going away happy and grateful, and 5% going away offended and complaining about how they were treated poorly.

It gets especially painful during the holidays.  

God bless you, Emmanuel Goldstein.  If you're having hard times, here's wishing you good holidays, and a better next year.  

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is the point of asking for help from the Bishops Storehouse If the Bishop and Relief Society President are just going to give a guilt trip every time? Especially when you pay your tithing every time and give a fast offering too.

What @NeuroTypical said.  Receive with gratitude.  Forgive generously.  Make productive use of your time - including in service of your ward where you can.  Some of us are socially and linguistically inept.  Some of us are hard-hearted but trying to do the calling as best we can.  If that's your bishop and/or RSP, take it as an opportunity to improve your patience, humility, and grace.  (Yes, I know, that's more easily said than done.)

May the Lord bless you and yours according to his will and mercy.

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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is the point of asking for help from the Bishops Storehouse If the Bishop and Relief Society President are just going to give a guilt trip every time? Especially when you pay your tithing every time and give a fast offering too.

Well, the one time I needed Church assistance people actually guilted me into signing up for help "because of the children". 

So, because of the children, I spoke with the bishop.  He signed the forms.  I went to the storehouse.   And I started loading the cart.  Everyone was very polite and helpful.

I couldn't stand one minute of it.  IT JUST FELT WRONG  -- for me. 

I recognize that the program is instituted of the Lord for a reason.  But I honestly don't believe I qualified for that reason (or reasons as the case may be).  I just wasn't supposed to be there.  I had to find another way.  And with the Lord's help, I did.

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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is the point of asking for help from the Bishops Storehouse If the Bishop and Relief Society President are just going to give a guilt trip every time? Especially when you pay your tithing every time and give a fast offering too.

Unfortunately you get that with any organization inside or outside the church who help others. Its the naturalness of some men to think it a burden to help others or feel they need to chastise or rebuke those they are helping. Ive seen it in getting government help, food bank help, churches, etc. I remember one bishop I had who had me bring in all my financial stuff to work through how I could save money and not have to ask for help. His answers were always put forth in a way telling me I didnt know how to manage my finances. I got tired of asking and having to go through him telling me I needed to sell my only car and so one winter we went without hot water and ate potatoes for every meal because I didnt want to ask for help. It certainly wasnt the Lords way. 

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I received help in the form of groceries and commodities. I was newly separated with no financial help from trying to get divorced from hubby.  On the wages, I was making I could pay rent, car insurance, internet, phone, and limited groceries but not tithing. With counsel from my Branch President, we agreed that I pay tithing, rent, car insurance, internet, and phone. The church would provide groceries and commodities - on a temporary basis.

Bishops Storehouse was nearly 175 miles from me, so I ordered on a form, the RS looked it over, suggested some more items or to add to what I had asked for like toilet paper - the box for one meant one roll not one package of four! Same for bath soap. This was an order for two weeks worth. Then I had to be at the drop off site with my own bags or boxes to pick up what I had ordered. Often I was asked by both the Branch President and the RSP to also pick up the order for a young family which I did.

For the 6 months, I was on it, the only raw vegetable was broccoli. Made several calls to my older sister asking for different recipes for broccoli other than eating it raw or steaming it. I also ordered powdered milk. Never once made it to drink or for cereal - but did use it exclusively to cook with.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now, there were only four people other than myself who knew I was on Church Welfare. The Branch President, RS President, and the young couple. All were considerate, discreet, helpful and caring. The young wife asked me on how to make more from scratch - not only was I glad to help and in reading the forms a bit better found a wonderful recipe book put out by the church. I ordered it and discovered that nearly all of the recipes I already had from my Mom and several of the cookbooks I already had - so I gifted it to her. They received help for only three months after which the husband received a substantial pay increase at work. 

For me, it was six months like I said, when I received enough pay increases which enabled me to pay all of my bills AND food & commodities. At my first interview with the Branch President, he asked me questions geared at finding whether I understood Need from Want. I was not upset or offended. Actually, even though he was decades younger than my parents, his questions so reminded me of them teaching me when I was maybe 10 or 12. Boy Howdy do I know the difference between Need and Want.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Well, the one time I needed Church assistance people actually guilted me into signing up for help "because of the children". 

So, because of the children, I spoke with the bishop.  He signed the forms.  I went to the storehouse.   And I started loading the cart.  Everyone was very polite and helpful.

I couldn't stand one minute of it.  IT JUST FELT WRONG  -- for me. 

I recognize that the program is instituted of the Lord for a reason.  But I honestly don't believe I qualified for that reason (or reasons as the case may be).  I just wasn't supposed to be there.  I had to find another way.  And with the Lord's help, I did.

My husband would be this.  We'd be close to dead before he'd ask my family for help, let alone walk into a bishop's office asking to take a cart to the storehouse.   I would go straight to my family and then maybe the bishop if we are still in dire straits.  I would probably have to put ambien in my husband's water so I can do so...

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

My husband would be this.  We'd be close to dead before he'd ask my family for help, let alone walk into a bishop's office asking to take a cart to the storehouse.   I would go straight to my family and then maybe the bishop if we are still in dire straits.  I would probably have to put ambien in my husband's water so I can do so...

It is interesting, I’m the same way. I often see this attitude as a strength, but I think it is just pride and a great weakness of ours.

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16 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is the point of asking for help from the Bishops Storehouse If the Bishop and Relief Society President are just going to give a guilt trip every time? Especially when you pay your tithing every time and give a fast offering too.

I have been in two bishoprics and just this last week assisted the Bishop with a welfare issue.  Based on my experiences with church welfare situations, I wish there was more "guilt trips" given. And by that I mean, making recipients accountable for the help they receive.  The easy option is to just hand over the help and move on.  Too often it is the Bishop that suffers the guilt trip and not the one requesting the help.  

The situation last week I could tell the Bishop agonized over it.  

One situation comes to mind when I was in a bishopric 15 years ago the Bishop asked me to interview someone requesting help.  I did and found that he had four cars, etc.  I asked him if he had considered selling one of his cars and he seemed to give rather lame reasons for why he couldn't.  I went to the bishop with my recommendation that he not be given assistance and instead request him to do a little self-sacrifice.  But instead the Bishop gave him the assistance.  

Side note:  I've heard that when the movie the Grapes of Wrath came out and was viewed in foreign countries like USSR they had a totally different perspective:  the poor farmers fleeing the dust bowl were viewed as being wealthy since in their countries only a small select class of people could afford automobiles.

 

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1 hour ago, Luke said:

I have been in two bishoprics and just this last week assisted the Bishop with a welfare issue.  Based on my experiences with church welfare situations, I wish there was more "guilt trips" given. And by that I mean, making recipients accountable for the help they receive.  The easy option is to just hand over the help and move on.  Too often it is the Bishop that suffers the guilt trip and not the one requesting the help.  

Hi, I've been lurking for a while here, but haven't posted. But this topic brings me out of the woodwork. :)

As a former bishop over a ward that had a lot of welfare needs, I have to say that this is spot on. Way too many people live for years on church welfare and are never helped to become self sufficient. So many welfare abusers have become extremely skilled at manipulating the emotions of bishops with guilt trips and other things. It is very important that a bishop understand the root cause of the financial trouble and then help the member to make changes where necessary. This approach is outlined very clearly in the handbook. I had one person furious at me for quite a while because I would not help them keep a car that was too expensive and would only pay rent for 3 or 4 months to give them time to figure something out. This person had lived for I think 6 or 7 years off church welfare. Strangely, though, after about a year they were 100% self sufficient and doing very well. 

It's a very fine line between holding someone accountable and guilt tripping. No one should be made to feel guilty for things beyond his or her control or for having a hard time. But it can be very difficult sometimes to make sure you understand the situation and evaluate whether someone really needs the help without coming off like you're trying to guilt trip someone. We typically had a policy of always giving food when asked, but scrutinizing other expenses much more closely. Although, I had one case where a guy was trading the food for cigarettes and drugs. In that case, we stopped giving food.

We also had many cases where we basically had to force people to take help when they clearly needed it. We had to resort to leaving boxes of food on the porch and similar things a couple of times.

Administering welfare is really not easy and finding the right balance between accountability and compassion can be very difficult. I would cut the bishop and RS president some slack.

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When I hear things like "every time" it causes me to raise an eyebrow.  I know very little about most things, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.  

AmI correct in understanding that Church welfare is meant as "assistance" not "support"?   How many times is "every time"?   How many times does it take before "assistance" becomes "support"?  If assistance does become support, should it continue?   Should there be guilt?  Should there be recompense?

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11 minutes ago, Grunt said:

When I hear things like "every time" it causes me to raise an eyebrow.  I know very little about most things, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.  

AmI correct in understanding that Church welfare is meant as "assistance" not "support"?   How many times is "every time"?   How many times does it take before "assistance" becomes "support"?  If assistance does become support, should it continue?   Should there be guilt?  Should there be recompense?

I'm going to have to guess what you mean by the difference between "assistance" and "support" and answer "yes".

Guilt, recompense...  Well, you gotta understand that these are very subjective terms.  For instance, the bishop's storehouse is wholly supported by Fast Offerings, not Tithing.  Separated funds for separate purposes.  I view tithing as the equivalent of income tax.  I view fast offering as a combination welfare/insurance program.

We are commanded to pay tithing as the Lord's law of finance to help spread the gospel.  It pays for the lights in the building and the construction of new buildings.

Fast offering is a free will offering that is meant to help the poor.  It is not a commandment. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/fasting-and-fast-offerings?lang=eng

To be honest, I haven't looked this up.  But I was taught the following:

It was first instituted by Brigham Young when he found that many of the new Saints coming to the Territory of Deseret had given up literally everything to get there and had no tools, no food, nothing but the clothes on their backs.  Many had worn out their shoes in coming there.

Brigham made the declaration that as long as his family ate, every Saint in the territory would eat.  So, we instituted the fast offering system.  It was not the same as it is now.  But those were the roots.

Today, bishops will differ on what justifies the need to use the Storehouse.  Some say that simply being unemployed is cause.  Others reserve it for the handicapped and those who otherwise cannot care for themselves.  I tend to think it is dependent on the funds available.  Food is there.  And if it is not used up, it goes to waste.  If there is not enough, we have to be more sparing in how much we give out.

Unlike the government, if we run out, we run out.  If too many people are on the system, we can't make food out of thin air.

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20 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is the point of asking for help from the Bishops Storehouse If the Bishop and Relief Society President are just going to give a guilt trip every time? Especially when you pay your tithing every time and give a fast offering too.

How often do you have a need for the bishop's storehouse?

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13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm going to have to guess what you mean by the difference between "assistance" and "support" and answer "yes".

Guilt, recompense...  Well, you gotta understand that these are very subjective terms.  For instance, the bishop's storehouse is wholly supported by Fast Offerings, not Tithing.  Separated funds for separate purposes.  I view tithing as the equivalent of income tax.  I view fast offering as a combination welfare/insurance program.

We are commanded to pay tithing as the Lord's law of finance to help spread the gospel.  It pays for the lights in the building and the construction of new buildings.

Fast offering is a free will offering that is meant to help the poor.  It is not a commandment. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/fasting-and-fast-offerings?lang=eng

To be honest, I haven't looked this up.  But I was taught the following:

It was first instituted by Brigham Young when he found that many of the new Saints coming to the Territory of Deseret had given up literally everything to get there and had no tools, no food, nothing but the clothes on their backs.  Many had worn out their shoes in coming there.

Brigham made the declaration that as long as his family ate, every Saint in the territory would eat.  So, we instituted the fast offering system.  It was not the same as it is now.  But those were the roots.

Today, bishops will differ on what justifies the need to use the Storehouse.  Some say that simply being unemployed is cause.  Others reserve it for the handicapped and those who otherwise cannot care for themselves.  I tend to think it is dependent on the funds available.  Food is there.  And if it is not used up, it goes to waste.  If there is not enough, we have to be more sparing in how much we give out.

Unlike the government, if we run out, we run out.  If too many people are on the system, we can't make food out of thin air.

"Guilt" was just a reflection of the OP's usage.  Recompense probably wasn't the correct term, as nobody has technically suffered loss or harm unless you count the depletion of donated resources.  I was more referring to the desire, or need, of the habitual user giving back through service to the organization.

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

"Guilt" was just a reflection of the OP's usage.  Recompense probably wasn't the correct term, as nobody has technically suffered loss or harm unless you count the depletion of donated resources.  I was more referring to the desire, or need, of the habitual user giving back through service to the organization.

In my ward, usually, if the recipient is healthy/able, they are requested to work at the storehouse in the unloading dock.

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

 I was more referring to the desire, or need, of the habitual user giving back through service to the organization.

Often times there is.  One thing my bishop said is that anyone on Church assistance must help clean the church buildings.  And everyone with any means is encouraged to pay a generous fast offering.

As an example, when I was a student, most students were not asked to pay fast offering.  But during tithing settlement, the bishop realized that my wife and I made a lot more than the average couple.  So, he asked if I would donate.  I did.  I chose to do so.  I chose how much.

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

How often do you have a need for the bishop's storehouse?

I needed it once last year and it was a very stressful situation. We are in need now and the past experience is making it difficult for me to ask again. But, if it means my kids get to eat then I will just go through it again.

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47 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I needed it once last year and it was a very stressful situation. We are in need now and the past experience is making it difficult for me to ask again. But, if it means my kids get to eat then I will just go through it again.

So, if it was only once, then why do you feel like it will be "every time"?

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18 hours ago, zil said:

This chapter is a really good read for anyone with questions about this: Handbook 2 Chapter 6 along with Chapter 9.6 Welfare and Compassionate Service.

I find that reading the handbook (which really reads a lot like a lesson rather than a policy) helps to clarify my thoughts and attitudes about things like this.

Spot on.  The last Bishop I served under, whenever there was a question about correct course to take, his first question was:  Well, what does the handbook say.  And if there wasn't a clear answer there:  Let's pray about it.

Edited by Luke
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This discussion motivated me to reduce my fast offering donation and increase my donation to humanitarian aid.  

Working in India for several months completely changed my perspective on what poverty is.  It is for millions a situation of bare survival and it is truly soul wrenching to see up close.  And for better or worse, since then I have lost a lot of my compassion for Americans in "poverty".  

A friend told me he was talking with an immigrant one time and when asked why he wanted to come to America he replied:  I want to live in a country where even the poor people are fat.

I'm not writing this to be offensive, but I found there to be a lot of truth in that statement.  The more common poverty found in America is a poverty of character.

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On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:54 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is the point of asking for help from the Bishops Storehouse If the Bishop and Relief Society President are just going to give a guilt trip every time? Especially when you pay your tithing every time and give a fast offering too.

Perhaps they've seen a lot of abuse of the system (as I have) and are low on patience. Furthermore, paying tithing and fast offering is great but that's no different than those who also pay and have never asked for help so I suggest approaching it as:

- I've done this, this, this and that to lower expenses

- I'm doing this, this, this and that to bring in more money

- I've approached all the extended family I can and they're helping with this, this and that

- I'm willing to (continue) magnifying my calling, serve where/whenever there's a need (moves, meals, rides, set up/clean up for activities...), clean the building weekly, disinfect the nursery toys, watch kids so parents can attend the temple, index daily, etc

- I'll take the free self-reliance course/s the church offers

Hope things improve for you soon.

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Just a few of the quotes I compiled some years ago on this topic:

“A church dole would be worse than a government dole because it would fail in the face of greater light. Church practices portray more honorable aims, more glorious potential” (Thomas S. Monson, “Guiding Principles of Personal and Family Welfare,” Ensign, Sept. 1986, 5).

Latter-day Saints have the responsibility to provide for themselves and their families. Individual members, however, may find it necessary to receive assistance beyond that which the family can provide, in which case they may turn to the Church for help. In some instances, individual members may decide to receive assistance from other sources, including government. In all such cases, members should avoid becoming dependent upon these sources and strive to become self-reliant. Where possible, they should work in return for assistance received. (providentliving.org)

The assistance given by the bishop is temporary and partial. Remember, Church assistance is designed to help people help themselves. The rehabilitation of members is the responsibility of the individual and the family, aided by the priesthood quorum and Relief Society. We are attempting to develop independence, not dependence. The bishop seeks to build integrity, self-respect, dignity, and soundness of character in each person assisted, leading to complete self-sufficiency. (Thomas S. Monson, “Guiding Principles of Personal and Family Welfare,” Ensign, Sep 1986, 3)

But the measure and extent of his [bishop] assistance will be determined by what we and our immediate family have done to solve the problem. Since the individual and family will be seeking to soundly establish themselves on the matter at hand, the resources of the Church Storehouse Resource System will be used only for temporary assistance, to bridge the gap between the problem and its earliest possible resolution. (Marion G. Romney, “Principles of Temporal Salvation,” Ensign, Apr 1981, 3)

 

When administering Church welfare assistance, bishops strive to build the needy spiritually and to foster self-reliance. Key to this effort is assigning work to those receiving assistance. When members work for assistance, they remain industrious, maintain their self-respect, and increase their ability to be self-reliant.

"Sometimes we may feel that we are being generous in giving them much without their giving any service in return, that maybe we are generous and that we are kind; but we are really unkind. It works the other way. We are unkind if we teach people to take without giving, without doing what they can do within reason" (Spencer W. Kimball, welfare services meeting report, Oct. 1974, 18).

 The bishop should give members opportunities to work to the extent of their ability for the assistance they receive (see Caring for the Needy, 5–6, 9). The First Presidency explained in 1936, “Relief is not to be normally given as charity; it is to be distributed for work or service rendered. . . .

"I remind bishops of the vital need to provide recipients of welfare assistance with the opportunity for work or service that thereby they may maintain their dignity and independence and continue to enjoy the Holy Spirit as they benefit from Church Welfare Services self-help efforts. We cannot be too often reminded that Church welfare assistance is spiritual at heart and that these spiritual roots would wither if we ever permitted anything like the philosophy of the dole to enter into our Welfare Services ministrations. Everyone assisted can do something. Let us follow the order of the Church in this regard and insure that all who receive give of themselves in return" (Spencer W. Kimball, "Becoming the Pure in Heart," Ensign, May 1978, 79).

"There is such a thing as encouraging idleness and fostering pauperism among men. Men and women ought not to be willing to receive charity unless they are compelled to do so to keep them from suffering. Every man and woman ought to possess the spirit of independence, a self-sustaining spirit, that would prompt him or her to say, when they are in need, 'I am willing to give my labor in exchange for that which you give me.' No man ought to be satisfied to receive, and to do nothing for it. After a man is brought down to poverty and is under the necessity of receiving aid, and his friends give it to him, he should feel that it is an obligation under which he is placed, and when the Lord should open his way he would return the gift. This is the feeling we should cultivate in our hearts" (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 234).

 

We assist with basic life-sustaining goods and services, not the maintenance of current living standards. Individuals and families may need to alter their standards of living in doing all they can to meet their own needs. (Thomas S. Monson, “Guiding Principles of Personal and Family Welfare,” Ensign, Sep 1986, 3)

The Church helps needy members by providing them the goods and services necessary to sustain life. It does not provide members the means to maintain affluent living standards. Members who are temporarily unable to provide for themselves may need to alter their standards of living until they are able to provide fully for themselves. (providentliving.org – questions)

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