Lehi's vision of the water

[GaleG]

Hello,
 
Would you help me understand these verses. It took a long time to gather my thoughts
because I was going back and forth with all the related footnote references.
 
According to my reading, Lehi saw a river of water and it near a tree of which he  
was eating some white fruit (1 Nephi 8:10-13). He also saw a rod of iron extending  
along the bank of the river which led to the tree of the white fruit (verses 19-20).   
Others come, grab a hold of the rod of iron on the straight and narrow path, and  
are led to the same tree and they also eat of the white fruit (verses 24,30).
 
In 1 Nephi 11:25, I see the same rod of iron and the fountain/river of water, which  
led to the tree of life. Here the waters and tree of life are said to represent the  
love of God.
 
It gets confusing in chapter 12, verses 16-17 and chapter 15, verses 26-29.
 
"And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the fountain of filthy water which thy  
father saw; yea, even the (b)river of which he spake; and the depths thereof are  
the depths of hell. And the mists of darkness are the temptations of the devil,  
which blindeth the eyes, and hardeneth the hearts of the children of men, and  
leadeth them away into broad roads, that they perish and are lost".
 
The river's depths are associated with the depths of hell (evil). Contrary to the  
narrow path for the saved, the broad roads are taken by the lost.
 
In my Book of Mormon, the footnote for (b)river refers back to 1 Nephi 8:13.  But
1 Nephi 8:13 is said to be living waters/river, not a filthy river whose depths are
the depths of hell.  The same mist of darkness in 1 Nephi 12:17 corresponds to the  
same mist of darkness in 1 Nephi 8:24. It seems the mist of darkness is coming from  
the filthy waters as it leads people to wander and be lost.
 
1 Nephi 8:32 says "And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the  
(b)fountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads".
 
I see a reference to the depths of the fountain and the depths of the filthy river
now. But the footnote for (b)fountain [i.e. filthy] is linked again back to 1 Nephi  
8:13-14.
 
"And as I cast my eyes round about, that perhaps I might discover my family also, I  
beheld a river of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was  
partaking the fruit.   
 
Lehi wanted to know the source of this river.
 
"And I looked to behold from whence it came; and I saw the head thereof a little  
way off; and at the head thereof I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and Nephi;  
and they stood as if they knew not whither they should go".
 
The 'river' that Lehi's sees in the vision in 1 Nephi 8:13 also has a footnote to
1 Nephi 15:26-29 - "And they said unto me: What meaneth the (26a) river of water  
which our father saw?  And I said unto them that the (27a) water which my father  
saw was filthiness; and so much was his mind swallowed up in other things that he  
beheld not the filthiness of the water.  And I said unto them that it was an awful  
gulf, which separated the wicked from the tree of life, and also from the saints  
of God. And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell, which  
the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked".
 
The gulf of the filthy water separates the wicked from the tree of life so this  
would seem to agree with the separation that I see in 1 Nephi 8:26 and 12:18.
 
The footnote 26a for river of water links back to 1 Nephi 8:13 (river of living  
water), which verse 27 says are really the waters of filthiness. Footnote 27a (the  
water of filthiness) is also linked back to the filthy waters of 1 Nephi 12:16-17.
 
1 Nephi 15:27 is also confusing - "And I said unto them that the water which my  
father saw was filthiness; and so much was his mind swallowed up in other things  
that he beheld not the filthiness of the water".
 
This seems to say Lehi misinterpreted his vision - he didn't see a river of living  
water but it was actually a filthy river and this river of water really didn't  
represent the love of God.
 
From reading the account of Lehi's vision, Lehi and those who partake of the fruit  
have no interaction with the water for they are not drowned in it. Those who enter  
the filthy water (the filthy river) are either drowned or enter on the lost side.
   
Please explain.
 
Thank you,
 
Gale

[zil]

9 minutes ago, GaleG said:

In 1 Nephi 11:25, I see the same rod of iron and the fountain/river of water,

The fountain and river are not the same thing - they are two different things.  The "fountain of living waters" is a synonym for the "tree of life" - both of which represent "the love of God".

The rod of iron is beside a strait and narrow path that leads to the tree.  The river is between that and the great and spacious building.  The river and the chasm it forms creates a gulf, abyss, depths of hell, this sort of thing.

[zil]

Adding to previous answer: "fountain of living water" is Nephi's only mention of this - as a synonym - there's no visual element of water in the vision except the "fountain of filthy water" aka the "river"

17 minutes ago, GaleG said:

1 Nephi 8:13 (river of living water)

"living" doesn't appear in v13 - Lehi sees a river and doesn't notice it's filthy.

[Guest]

@GaleG,

Don't worry about it.  I was confused by this many times, myself.  It took a while for me to really sort it all out because the descriptions were so sparse.  But that's kind of how a dream is.  Sometimes the organization of the dream doesn't make sense when you think about it.

First thing is that there are two fountains.  One of living water and one of filthy water.  The fountain of living water is basically a spring coming from the roots of the tree of life.  And the waters thereof are the Love of God.  And if zil's description is correct (that it is synonymous with the tree of life) then the image I get is that this "glowing tree of life" emanates a light that flows like water.  (Pretty picture if you think about it.)

The second is the fountain of filthy water.  I can't find anywhere that it states exactly where it is in relation to everything else.  But apparently it is feeding the river of filthy water.

I've really tried figuring out an actual picture of this vision.  But I don't think it is supposed to be seen that way.  It isn't a geometric description.  It is just a bunch of separate symbols loosely connected by the central themes of the vision.

It didn't make much sense to me.  But once I recognized how dreams work, and that this was a dream, it really helped me understand the symbolism better.

I theorize that to see a heavenly vision, the nature of heaven is so different than our lives here, that the impressions would be very fleeting (like images of a dream).  And visions may be difficult to keep in our mortal minds.

Nephi had been prepared because of Lehi's description.  So, he was able to recount more than Lehi (who had no such preparation).  That helped him a great deal.

Joseph Smith was visited three times by Moroni who told him roughly the same things again and again (with only a little bit of new information each time).  It is because the presence of heavenly beings is so startling (as angels often start their message with "fear not") that our emotions and awe get in the way of actually seeing what is being shown to us.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Guest

[mikbone]

I got this!!

The pure water that comes from the source is truth and knowledge from God.

Unfortunately the water must flow through the course of the river which is earth.  And the earth is made of dirt.  And the dirt makes the river muddy.  It reminds me of the difference between the water and rivers of California and Texas...

Anyway.  The muddy waters represent the absolute confusion and misunderstand that occurs to the word of God.  If we could all read the sealed 2/3 portion of the Golden Plates everything would be crystal clear.  But because of the weakness of men, the mis-interpretation and poor recording and copying of records, the Bible has become somewhat corrupt.  

And uninspired men's interpretation of the Gospel has become absolutely corrupted.  

Drink from the source brother!  

[scottyg]

Lehi wanted his family to partake of the fruit, and was so happy when they did, not to mention the joy he felt when he partook of it. To me, when it says "so much was his mind swallowed up in other things that he beheld not the filthiness of the water" it means that we should not focus on the bad things in the world, but focus on the good. Yes, we need to know that evil is there, and how to avoid it, but we do not need to focus on it...focus more on the good. Let's say something is bad; we do not need to get closer, or inspect that thing more to see just how bad it is. If the spirit is offended, then such things are not for us, and we should not linger. Lehi beheld not the filthiness because he moved on to more important things.

[zil]

24 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I got this!!

The pure water that comes from the source is truth and knowledge from God.

Unfortunately the water must flow through the course of the river which is earth.  And the earth is made of dirt.  And the dirt makes the river muddy.  It reminds me of the difference between the water and rivers of California and Texas...

Anyway.  The muddy waters represent the absolute confusion and misunderstand that occurs to the word of God.  If we could all read the sealed 2/3 portion of the Golden Plates everything would be crystal clear.  But because of the weakness of men, the mis-interpretation and poor recording and copying of records, the Bible has become somewhat corrupt.  

And uninspired men's interpretation of the Gospel has become absolutely corrupted.  

Drink from the source brother!  

In Lehi and Nephi's visions, the "fountain of living waters" (aka tree of life, aka love of God) is NOT the source/fountain of the filthy river.  The end.

Now your analogy might be useful, but this does not match the vision nor the interpretation thereof as presented in scripture.

(Just wanted to ensure this didn't confuse Gale or give her the wrong idea.)

[mikbone]

16 minutes ago, zil said:

In Lehi and Nephi's visions, the "fountain of living waters" (aka tree of life, aka love of God) is NOT the source/fountain of the filthy river.  The end.

Now your analogy might be useful, but this does not match the vision nor the interpretation thereof as presented in scripture.

(Just wanted to ensure this didn't confuse Gale or give her the wrong idea.)

Nope not the end.  Try to re-read it again.  It never says there are 2 rivers.  It says that Lehi didn't appreciate the filthiness of the river.  Probably because he was looking at the source.  Like we all should be doing...

Give it a try.  One of us is mis-interpreting the vision.  I have looked at it both ways.  My current understanding makes more sense to me...

 

[zil]

37 minutes ago, mikbone said:

rivers

You appear to be assuming that a "fountain" must be a source of a river.  The only use of "fountain of living water" is as a synonym for "tree of life".  It's never mentioned as the source of a river.

In 1 Nephi 8:17 we first see "a river of water" (v13), "the head of the river" (v14; and in v17, near Laman and Lemuel), and in v19-20, we learn that the "rod of iron extended along the bank of the river" and led to the tree, and that a path "came along by the rod of iron" to the tree and "also led by the head of the fountain".  [ETA: the head of the river appears to be far from the tree - given that Laman and Lemuel were both by the head and far from the tree.]

Whoa! Stop the presses!  What fountain!?  No fountain has been mentioned yet, but he uses the definitive article ("the", not "a"), so clearly it's a specific fountain - namely, it's synonymous with the river (or the "head" of the river - that thing Laman and Lemuel were near).

This interpretation is supported by v32 saying that "many were drowned in the depths of the fountain" (not the river; and a negative sort of drowning) - one is not going to drown in the love of God (in a bad way).

In 1 Nephi 12, the angel explains "the fountain of filthy water which thy father saw; yeah even the river of which he spake; and the depths thereof are the depths of hell" - again, synonyms - the river and its head are synonymous with the "fountain of filthy water".  (Note also that it's not just the river that has filthy water - the fountain is of filthy water - it's not "fountain of pure water made filthy as it passes into / along the river" - it's all filthy from head to foot - so to speak.)

Next in 1 Nephi 11 we're introduced to a different fountain - not as a physical element in the vision (per se) but as a synonym for the tree of life (v25).  Note that just as Lehi saw that the rod of iron led to the tree of life, so Nephi sees that the rod of iron leads to the fountain of living waters.  (Note too that Lehi only uses the word "fountain" whereas Nephi explicitly refers to the "fountain of living waters".)

Also interesting is that Nephi never mentions seeing a river, and in chapter 12, the angel describes it as "the river which thy father saw" - not the one Nephi (or both) saw - it's almost like Nephi didn't see the whole vision - just the start of it and then the interpretations of its parts.

The love of God is not the source of the filthiness - it does not come out pure and get corrupted - the visions include two different things called "fountains" - in each case, it is a symbolic or representational use of the word, but representing different things - one filthy, one living.

Edited December 4, 2018 by zil

[mikbone]

Google Lehi's dream and look at all the interpretations of the artwork.  There are many.  Which one is the correct one?  You want to critique each and every one of them?

Lehi's dream is a dream.  It ain't real.  It's not a location that exists.  It is used to teach principles of truth.

Lehi saw it one way.  And the Holy Ghost gave a different interpretation to Nephi.  Is that OK?

Is it ok that I perceive it as different than you?  

I like my understanding better than yours.  Mine gives me an understanding that information fresh from the source is pure love.  But when just a little dirt is tossed into the information it becomes dirty and can become a morass, even the depths of hell.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by mikbone

[GaleG]

On 12/3/2018 at 4:02 PM, Carborendum said:

First thing is that there are two fountains.  One of living water and one of filthy water.  The fountain of living water is basically a spring coming from the roots of the tree of life.  And the waters thereof are the Love of God.  And if zil's description is correct (that it is synonymous with the tree of life) then the image I get is that this "glowing tree of life" emanates a light that flows like water.  (Pretty picture if you think about it.)

 

Thank you Carborendum.

That was my first impression but then I didn't see a plural form. The use of the footnotes was confusing.

Gale

[mikbone]

 

 

 

 

http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/09/the-river/297/

Another point of view...

Edited December 8, 2018 by mikbone

[Traveler]

I will provide a little different perspective.  But first I would say that a year and a half ago I visited the Holy Land and my perspective of a great many things changed.  I will start with the river Jordan near where Jesus was baptized - I was surprised to see such a filthy river full.   A Jew explained to me that "living water" is flowing water that has not been stopped from it source.  Because tap water can be turned off - that water is not living water - neither is water in a well.  Living water must constantly flow.   But I also learned that flowing water that has over run it banks and is out of control is considered evil and filthy.  

I believe that the water Lehi references is the same river.  While it is flowing in its course it is considered living water.   During a storm when the river flows over it banks and is out of control it is considered filthy.   This symbolism can be used in so many ways.  There is only one place in Arabia where there is a river that run constantly - year round into the Red Sea.  This happens to be very near where Lehi and family were camped when Lehi had his dream.  But once a year during the rainy season the river overflows and becomes deadly.  And the area where this river runs into the depth of the Red Sea there are powerful undertows that are especially dangerous during the rainy season - being swept into the Read Sea would very likely doom a person to death.  Therefor the imagery of a pure stream of living water becoming filthy and bring death provides understanding for those that have access to revelation but do not pay attention to the changing landscape.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

12 minutes ago, mikbone said:

 

 

These pictures are very interesting - however is one is to visit Arabia They will discover a very important tree called the tree of life.  This is because the tree of life produces a white fruit that will not spoil in the hot sun for months and can be used to sustain life when traveling the deserts.  The white fruit literally sustains life - thus it is called the tree of life.  The tree grows mainly in western Arabia and is a date palm tree.  But in all the art work of our western civilization I have never seen the tree of life depicted as a palm tree.

 

The Traveler 

[mikbone]

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-first-nephi-doctrinal-foundation/9-stela-5-izapa-layman-s-consideration-tree

 

 

http://www.supportingevidences.net/the-izapa-stela-5-stone/

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I will provide a little different perspective.  But first I would say that a year and a half ago I visited the Holy Land and my perspective of a great many things changed.  I will start with the river Jordan near where Jesus was baptized - I was surprised to see such a filthy river full.   A Jew explained to me that "living water" is flowing water that has not been stopped from it source.  Because tap water can be turned off - that water is not living water - neither is water in a well.  Living water must constantly flow.   But I also learned that flowing water that has over run it banks and is out of control is considered evil and filthy.  

I believe that the water Lehi references is the same river.  While it is flowing in its course it is considered living water.   During a storm when the river flows over it banks and is out of control it is considered filthy.   This symbolism can be used in so many ways.  There is only one place in Arabia where there is a river that run constantly - year round into the Red Sea.  This happens to be very near where Lehi and family were camped when Lehi had his dream.  But once a year during the rainy season the river overflows and becomes deadly.  And the area where this river runs into the depth of the Red Sea there are powerful undertows that are especially dangerous during the rainy season - being swept into the Read Sea would very likely doom a person to death.  Therefor the imagery of a pure stream of living water becoming filthy and bring death provides understanding for those that have access to revelation but do not pay attention to the changing landscape.

 

The Traveler

Thanks, Traveler.  That is certainly a very interesting perspective.

If we follow this theory onward, you're saying that the love of God can become filthy and deadly.  I'm having trouble figuring how that works in the allegory.  What's your take on that?

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Thanks, Traveler.  That is certainly a very interesting perspective.

If we follow this theory onward, you're saying that the love of God can become filthy and deadly.  I'm having trouble figuring how that works in the allegory.  What's your take on that?

Love of God - Can be many things.  Our Bodies, free will, intelligence, technology

If you could open your mind and think...   You might possibly conceive of a way that these blessings and opportunities can become corrupted.  Or not...

 

[Traveler]

On 12/7/2018 at 9:01 PM, Carborendum said:

Thanks, Traveler.  That is certainly a very interesting perspective.

If we follow this theory onward, you're saying that the love of God can become filthy and deadly.  I'm having trouble figuring how that works in the allegory.  What's your take on that?

Water is a most interesting symbol in scripture - It is a means of cleansing.  But consider the sacrament.  It is a means to renew covenants (including baptism and cleansing by water) to remember Christ.  But what happens if one partakes of the sacrament unworthily - or for that matter turns sacred covenants into lies?  Then instead of becoming a blessing - one eats and drinks damnation unto themselves.  I believe that even the love of G-d can be misused, abused and mocked (among other things).

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

Water is a most interesting symbol in scripture - It is a means of cleansing.  But consider the sacrament.  It is a means to renew covenants (including baptism and cleansing by water) to remember Christ.  But what happens if one partakes of the sacrament unworthily - or for that matter turns sacred covenants into lies?  Then instead of becoming a blessing - one eats and drinks damnation unto themselves.  I believe that even the love of G-d can be misused, abused and mocked (among other things).

So, how do you see the fountain and the river(s) in the dream vis-a-vis this interpretation?

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, how do you see the fountain and the river(s) in the dream vis-a-vis this interpretation?

For me the symbolism is both clear and useful - at the source (G-d's word) is pure and desirable.  But once it has been polluted by the world and  corrupted from those with their own agendas - it becomes filthy and dangerous.  Many of the worst atrocities (wars) committed by mankind though out history have been committed in the name of G-d.  Did you know that it was 1649 years after the birth of Christ before a Christian society would make it unlawful to murder and take someone's property for the simple reason of not believing in the Trinity.  The man that translated the first English edition of the Bible was burned at the stake for it.

We can think of the fountain of water being two very different things - I am okay with that - but i think we can also see the fountain as having one source that becomes corrupt.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 9, 2018 by Traveler

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Traveler said:

For me the symbolism is both clear and useful - at the source (G-d's word) is pure and desirable.  But once it has been polluted by the world and  corrupted from those with their own agendas - it becomes filthy and dangerous. 

...

We can think of the fountain of water being two very different things - I am okay with that - but i think we can also see the fountain as having one source that becomes corrupt.

I understand that much.  But in the dream as described in 1 Ne.  Do you read two rivers or only one?  As you read it, do they both come from ONE source or TWO?

[mikbone]

This is Big Springs, “the headwaters”, part of the source of the sacramento river.  It is an hour drive from my home, near the base of Mt Shasta and is from an aquifer filled by water that is filtered through the volcanic rock of Mt Shasta for half a century.  It comes out crystal clear and refreshingly cold.  

Its a great weekend get away, and my kids love to visit it.  You can drink right from the source and it tastes great.  

But its also kinda bizzare because the local hippies are constantly filing their jugs with the water and they recharge energy bracelets in the healing waters as well...

Anyway the hippies also bathe in the water a few hundred feet from the source and dogs pee into it etc.  I wouldn’t drink it unless I personally drew the water myself and verified that nothing was between my vessel and the source of the fountain...

https://www.google.com/amp/www.mtshastanews.com/article/20140319/NEWS/140319607%3ftemplate=ampart

Edited December 9, 2018 by mikbone

[CV75]

Personally, I envision two sets of water: the filthy river that ran along (it does not say it flows) near the tree, and the fountain of living waters. The rod leads from the filthy river to the tree itself (the river  does not), or to the fountain of living waters colocated with the tree of life (1 Nephi 11:25). This fountain and its symbolism is the vantage point from which Nephi looks to behold the extensive vision that follows from 1 Nehpi 11:25 through the next several chapters.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Personally, I envision two sets of water: the filthy river that ran along (it does not say it flows) near the tree, and the fountain of living waters. The rod leads from the filthy river to the tree itself (the river  does not), or to the fountain of living waters colocated with the tree of life (1 Nephi 11:25). This fountain and its symbolism is the vantage point from which Nephi looks to behold the extensive vision that follows from 1 Nehpi 11:25 through the next several chapters.

This was how I saw it as well.  I thought that a river came from the tree and ran parallel to the rod of iron.  Then the fountain of filthy water flowed from a second source and ran down that chasm.  It seemed this second river formed the chasm as the river that formed the Grand Canyon. 

I never thought of them mixing as Traveler posits.  But I was curious about his take on it.

[CV75]

@GaleG Just another pass for the fun of it, 1 Nephi 8:

Verse 13: the river of water (which according to 1 Nephi 15 was filthy) ran along within the dark and dreary waste and near the tree which was in a large and spacious field.

Verse 14: the head of the river was a little way off from the tree.

Verse 17, 19, 20: the rod of iron extended along the bank of the river, along with the straight and narrow path, and both led by the head of the fountain (the river where people were drowned—see verse 32), unto the large and spacious filed, and then to the tree (which according to 1 Nephi 11, has its own fountain of living waters). Lehi’s river and fountain are the same filthy waters.

Verse 26: on the other side of the river (which is described in 1 Nephi 15 as a gulf), we have the great and spacious building.