Would a Latter-day Saint Stay Silent With Trump, Or Recite This Creed With Everyone Else?


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As you already know, former President George H. W. Bush passed away a few days ago. During his funeral service on Wednesday in the Washington National Cathedral, the congregation recited the Apostles' Creed. Some people call it a prayer. To others, it's simply a statement of belief. To Episcopalians and some others, it's as normal and common as reciting the pledge of allegiance was back in elementary school for most of us. Former presidents Carter, Clinton, and Obama were present. They recited the prayer along with most everyone else. President Trump and his wife, Melania, were amongst the few who remained silent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GggdLB0pxw The silence caused quite a controversy within the Twittersphere. Some backed up the president and many criticized his behavior (as is apparent from the title of the video above). https://twitter.com/keithboykin/status/1070376816131694593 https://twitter.com/LPensley/status/1070926226947158017 https://twitter.com/ktlatx/status/1070792715359711232 https://twitter.com/ml42273/status/1070794760997298176 This article isn't about the rightness or wrongness of what President Trump did. In the arena of important world issues, this one is far down the list. However, the scenario does prompt an interesting hypothetical question. If you, as a member...

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This article displays an utter lack of understanding of what the Nicene/Apostle's Creed professes and what it means to be a catholic (small c) church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint is a catholic (small c) church.  That is not the problem with the creed.

A Latter-day Saint reciting the Nicene Creed is a Latter-day Saint professing that they believe in a Triune God.  The Latter-day Saint would be either lying or confused about his beliefs.

I propose this article be TAKEN DOWN not only for very poor quality but also for untruths.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Many assumptions being made with the purpose of forcing ones beliefs on another.   So who cares that the FORMER POTUS's recited it.   Freedom of religion!!

As I get older I get more and more tired of correcting the assumptions of others.   People can make assumptions, but, as far as I'm concerned, they are responsible for the accuracy of those assumptions.   And if they're wrong, it's on them.   And no one else has the responsibility to correct them.    After I came home from the service, I had to relocate for work.   When I hadn't attended church for several weeks, the home teacher assigned to me caught me coming to my apartment on a Sunday evening.    He told me that as an Elder I should know what I was doing was wrong and went on to chastise me.   He made assumptions, he didn't do his home work.   AND I didn't correct him.   The facts, my mother was very sick and had been for a while.   She never mentioned it while I was overseas.   And with a new job, I had no vacation, so I was making the 100 mile trip right after work on Friday and coming back late Sunday, so I could spend as much time as possible.   My father died of service related injuries when I was 4-1/2 months old.   My mother never remarried.   I more than owed it to her to be there for her and not let her be alone.   

Assumptions are dangerous, especially when the person making them is responsible for their accuracy.

 

 

Edited by sarguy
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On 12/7/2018 at 6:11 PM, anatess2 said:

This article displays an utter lack of understanding of what the Nicene/Apostle's Creed professes and what it means to be a catholic (small c) church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint is a catholic (small c) church.  That is not the problem with the creed.

A Latter-day Saint reciting the Nicene Creed is a Latter-day Saint professing that they believe in a Triune God.  The Latter-day Saint would be either lying or confused about his beliefs.

Anyone reciting the Nicene Creed while everyone else is on the Apostles' Creed is going to look pretty dumb anyway as they're still rambling on for 2-3 minutes after everybody else finishes.  (Not that these people don't exist - senile dementia knows no denominational bounds.)

On 12/7/2018 at 6:11 PM, anatess2 said:

I propose this article be TAKEN DOWN not only for very poor quality but also for untruths.

Can we also have the author and "editor" identified?  This kind of intentionally divisive writing and refusal to do even the most basic research is exactly what any anti-Mormon site loves to point to.  "Guest author" reeks of some not-a-guest wanting to remain anonymous because it knew exactly how bad its article was and hoped nobody would point that out.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am bothered by the latest and probably the most divisive "weapon" being used today.   Being offended.     The phrase "I'm offended by .............." is being used as a weapon against people who don't believe what they do or have an opposing stand on a subject.   It's being used as a lever to get their own way, because "no one is allowed to offend me" or as in polite societies you don't want to offend people.   But, in polite societies people are able to disagree, have opposing views without there being hostilities and hate.

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The mere fact that it's a matter of debate tells me that there's enough variety in points of view that it really doesn't make sense to try to rally people one way or the other.  If what the President did was wrong, it wasn't very egregious.  If it wasn't, it isn't a huge moral stand.

Either way, this is an utter non-issue.  I'll waste no more ti

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On 1/22/2019 at 9:47 PM, mrmarklin said:

....but don’t recite the Lords Prayer or any creeds with the audience. Why would I parrot something I don’t believe in....

I'm just curious. What part of the Lord's Prayer do you not believe in?

M.

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11 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I'm just curious. What part of the Lord's Prayer do you not believe in?

Indeed, especially it's right there in 3 Nephi 13:

Quote

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.  Be not ye therefore like unto them, for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.  Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.  And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.  For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

I was teaching the Gospel Essentials lesson on Prayer once, and someone asked about the Lord's prayer.  We put it up on the board and then went through the lesson, checking items off as they were covered.  We had the whole thing covered.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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  • 1 month later...

Regardless of anything else, Trump did exactly what anyone else should do in a religious ceremony not precisely matching their own faith; respectfully participate to the extent that you're comfortable with and avoid disrupting any other part.  Calling him out for that is tacky, to say the very least.

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  • 4 years later...

I apologize for bringing up an ancient thread.  But it happened to come up in one of my searches for another matter...

On 12/7/2018 at 4:19 PM, Third Hour said:
  • The recitation of the creed was a planned part of a funerary procession. Would it have been appropriate to recite the creed simply out of respect for the deceased and his beliefs, rather than a personal declaration of belief?
  • Would it be disrespectful if you were to stay silent, as President Trump did? Who would it be disrespectful to?
  • Would it be disrespectful if you were to recite the creed even though you disagree with part of it? Who would it be disrespectful to?

An interesting parallel here is that in the ancient world, many pagans (I purposefully use the very old-school, classic definition here) would make oaths in the name of the god or gods of the person to whom they were speaking.

Quote

And she said, As the Lord thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.

 -- 1 Kings 17:12

The widow used the term "Yahweh Elohim" to mean "The Lord thy God" even though she was of a different faith.  She apparently recognized something in Elisha's manner or probably his dress or accent which labeled him as an Israelite. This was perfectly acceptable since people changed religions every time they went to a new nation or new city.   They worshipped whatever god was popular at the time.  So, it meant nothing that they would swear oaths in the name of foreign gods out of courtesy.

But...

For Israel, it was quite different.  A faithful child of Israel would never worship another god simply because they moved.  Thus, they would never swear an oath in the name of an idolatrous god.  I'd believe that as Latter-day Saints, the modern Covenant People, we should follow suit.

Would we say these creeds "out of courtesy" just because we're in a funeral for the deceased?  With no other knowledge or context, I'd say no.  So, it would have been nice to have known about this ahead of time to get proper context and understanding of tradition.  I would have read through it to see if I had a problem with it.

I don't have a problem with the "catholic church" line because as Anatess mentioned, it is a small "c".  I have a problem with a different line which could be considered doctrinally incorrect -- or not.

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  • 1 month later...

I myself cannot officially join any Christian church....partly due to the questions that I have regarding The Virgin Birth??????

For all that  I know, the Holy Spirit when She or He overshadowed Mary / Myriam the mother of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus, She or He may have impregnated Mary with a spermatozoa from Isaiah????????

"therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: the maiden is with child and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel. By the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good, he will be eating curds and honey."

I personally cannot know all that is hidden in the meaning of this verse!????

So...perhaps President Trump has some questions regarding certain statements in the Apostles Creed that he may not feel entirely comfortable with????

 

 

 

Edited by D.PatrickTate
spelling... capitalization....
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