Forgiveness Begets Repentance

[Guest]

Recently a person posted on this forum that he had a hard time forgiving himself for a sin he committed.  He wondered if that was preventing him from fully repenting. He's left, probably never to return again.  But that question has had me thinking for a while.  I believe the answer is yes.

Quote

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

 -- D&C 64:9-10

I think there is more to the bolded portion (in both verses) than a lot of people tend to think.  When the Lord gives a commandment, it is not arbitrary.  And it isn't a "decision" on his part.  It is His way of explaining to us the nature of reality.

Verse 10 is not just a commandment.  It is a statement of reality which speaks to the nature of forgiveness and its relationship to repentance.

We often hear about separating the sin from the sinner.  What if the sinner is ourselves?  Two different sides of that coin.

• The reality that I think these verses speak to is that if we have the attitude of judging the person and not the sin, we will also tend to do that to ourselves.  It is impossible to separate the sin from the sinner when judging ourselves if we've had so much practice refusing to separate them when judging others.
• Isn't separating the sin from the sinner (when it is ourselves) the very definition of repentance?  We are trying to separate ourselves from the sin we've committed.

When judging others, we have no power over whether he is forgiven or not.  The Lord probably will forgive him much more readily.  But the "greater sin" that remains is that we're not separating ourselves from our own sins either.  That's why we are required to forgive ALL men, including ourselves.

[zil]

When I read the title of your thread, I had another thought: offering forgiveness will lead the sinner (offender) to repent.  For example, in an argument, once one side begins to diffuse the situation (perhaps with their own apology), doesn't it often lead to the other side apologizing?  On the other hand, if a person tries to apologize, and this is rejected, doesn't it often lead to worse offenses, harder feelings, etc.?  Forgiveness, whether offered before or after an apology, does indeed beget repentance (at least some of the time).

[Grunt]

Very awesome point, @zil.  

@Carborendum, what exactly is it to forgive yourself and repent?   I believe we have a fairly strong sense of repentance because we teach it frequently.  What is forgiveness, though?

We day we forgive others all the time.  I honestly believe we typically mean it and act as such, too.  However, does forgiving someone set the clock back to to before the transgression?  In most cases I don't believe that is possible.  If your spouse is unfaithful you forgive them and work to restore normalcy to your relationship.  How long does it take to reset the hearts and minds in the relationship to the point they were at prior to the infidelity?   Is it ever even possible?

I believe He knows our hearts and that is how we are judged.  We preach all the time to investigators and those with shaky testimonies that we should act on faith and the desire to believe.  We control actions.  I think the same applies to forgiveness.   We must desire to foregive, even ourselves, and pray for that desired end state.  The natural man is imperfect, though, so I don't believe repentance is tied to perfection.  At least I hope it isn't.  

[Midwest LDS]

I never thought of it this way before, but I think you are right @Carborendum. In my life, especially when I was younger, I would treat myself horribly when I sinned. I knew the innermost details of my thoughts, and knew exactly how rebelious, selfish, uncharitable I had been, and so I raked myself over the coals. But what good did that ever do? It always left me feeling worse, and it never lead me to fully repent, because I felt unworthy to even move past my initial sin. I still struggle with this at times, although I'm usually better than I used to be. I've learned that it is far easier to forgive others than myself, but if I am ever to repent of my sins, I have to forgive myself. Why should I treat myself worse than I treat others? Would it help others to repent if I verbally destroyed them every time they sinned? Of course not, and so I really try not to do that to myself anymore. I appreciate you using some scriptures that match my own experiences.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Very awesome point, @zil.  

@Carborendum, what exactly is it to forgive yourself and repent?   I believe we have a fairly strong sense of repentance because we teach it frequently.  What is forgiveness, though?

We day we forgive others all the time.  I honestly believe we typically mean it and act as such, too.  However, does forgiving someone set the clock back to to before the transgression?  In most cases I don't believe that is possible.  If your spouse is unfaithful you forgive them and work to restore normalcy to your relationship.  How long does it take to reset the hearts and minds in the relationship to the point they were at prior to the infidelity?   Is it ever even possible?

I believe He knows our hearts and that is how we are judged.  We preach all the time to investigators and those with shaky testimonies that we should act on faith and the desire to believe.  We control actions.  I think the same applies to forgiveness.   We must desire to foregive, even ourselves, and pray for that desired end state.  The natural man is imperfect, though, so I don't believe repentance is tied to perfection.  At least I hope it isn't.  

I don't know how much clearer I can say it than "Separate the sin from the sinner."  I as an individual am a child of God.  I need to always remember that.  I have also committed many sins in my life. 

But the moment I stop seeing myself as "A Child of God" and begin seeing myself as "A Sinner" that is when Satan begins to send me spiraling down into the pit.

Yes, we admit when we've done wrong.  And we do everything to apologize, provide restitution, confess our sins, and avoid doing it again.  But if that mentality shifts from "fixing the wrong" to "how terrible I am for having done that" then that gets us believing "WE" are the problem rather than the sin itself.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

I never thought of it this way before, but I think you are right @Carborendum. In my life, especially when I was younger, I would treat myself horribly when I sinned. I knew the innermost details of my thoughts, and knew exactly how rebelious, selfish, uncharitable I had been, and so I raked myself over the coals. But what good did that ever do? It always left me feeling worse, and it never lead me to fully repent, because I felt unworthy to even move past my initial sin. I still struggle with this at times, although I'm usually better than I used to be. I've learned that it is far easier to forgive others than myself, but if I am ever to repent of my sins, I have to forgive myself. Why should I treat myself worse than I treat others? Would it help others to repent if I verbally destroyed them every time they sinned? Of course not, and so I really try not to do that to myself anymore. I appreciate you using some scriptures that match my own experiences.

This was exactly what the visitor I referenced in the OP was talking about.

Satan's goal is to get us to think how horrible we are, but forget how terrible the sin is. In this way, we continue to sin because WE are the problem, not the sin.

The Lord wants us to remember who we are and our divine nature, but recognize how horrible the sin is.  In this way we realize how incongruous it is for a Child of God to commit such great wickedness and sin against God.

[Guest MormonGator]

58 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

I never thought of it this way before, but I think you are right @Carborendum. In my life, especially when I was younger, I would treat myself horribly when I sinned. I knew the innermost details of my thoughts, and knew exactly how rebelious, selfish, uncharitable I had been, and so I raked myself over the coals. But what good did that ever do? It always left me feeling worse, and it never lead me to fully repent, because I felt unworthy to even move past my initial sin. I still struggle with this at times, although I'm usually better than I used to be. I've learned that it is far easier to forgive others than myself, but if I am ever to repent of my sins, I have to forgive myself. Why should I treat myself worse than I treat others? Would it help others to repent if I verbally destroyed them every time they sinned? Of course not, and so I really try not to do that to myself anymore. I appreciate you using some scriptures that match my own experiences.

 

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This was exactly what the visitor I referenced in the OP was talking about.

Satan's goal is to get us to think how horrible we are, but forget how terrible the sin is. In this way, we continue to sin because WE are the problem, not the sin.

The Lord wants us to remember who we are and our divine nature, but recognize how horrible the sin is.  In this way we realize how incongruous it is for a Child of God to commit such great wickedness and sin against God.

You guys would make amazing bishops. Being able to tell the difference between sin and sinners (and not just give it lip service) is a talent few of us have. 

[Midwest LDS]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 

You guys would make amazing bishops. Being able to tell the difference between sin and sinners (and not just give it lip service) is a talent few of us have. 

I think I have a lot to learn before I would be ready for that responsibility, but I appreciate the compliment☺.

[Anddenex]

Overall the post is sound to me, except we find disagreement with the answer to his question as "yes."

Repentance is the confessing and forsaking of this sin. One doesn't need to forgive oneself to fully repent of a sin. It though is hard to progress when we can't look forward, and we allow Satan to destroy our peace (2 Nephi 4).

If this individual had already confessed and forsaken the sin, then he had already fully repented, and the arm of mercy was extended by the atonement.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Overall the post is sound to me, except we find disagreement with the answer to his question as "yes."

Repentance is the confessing and forsaking of this sin. One doesn't need to forgive oneself to fully repent of a sin. It though is hard to progress when we can't look forward, and we allow Satan to destroy our peace (2 Nephi 4).

If this individual had already confessed and forsaken the sin, then he had already fully repented, and the arm of mercy was extended by the atonement.

Yes, that is a point of disagreement. 

Have we fully repented if we haven't cast out the sin from our lives?  Part of repentance is quitting the sin.  We are saved from our sins.  We are not saved in our sins.

The person in question explained that he was not able to stop committing the sin.  I believed that if he's listening to Satan's voice that tells him that HE is the problem, not the sin, then he will be prevented from full repentance.

[Anddenex]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, that is a point of disagreement. 

Have we fully repented if we haven't cast out the sin from our lives?  Part of repentance is quitting the sin.  We are saved from our sins.  We are not saved in our sins.

The person in question explained that he was not able to stop committing the sin.  I believed that if he's listening to Satan's voice that tells him that HE is the problem, not the sin, then he will be prevented from full repentance.

This is what I was responding to, "Recently a person posted on this forum that he had a hard time forgiving himself for a sin he committed."

We are actually in agreement if this was the case, "The person in question explained that he was not able to stop committing the sin," as I was responding to repentance is "confessing and forsaking" the sin. If we are confessing but not forsaking then we are not fully repenting.

I did not see this clarification in your previous post.

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is what I was responding to, "Recently a person posted on this forum that he had a hard time forgiving himself for a sin he committed."

We are actually in agreement if this was the case, "The person in question explained that he was not able to stop committing the sin," as I was responding to repentance is "confessing and forsaking" the sin. If we are confessing but not forsaking then we are not fully repenting.

I did not see this clarification in your previous post.

It was part of the premise of my overall thesis.

To forsake would mean that we are separating ourselves from the sin.  "Forgiving ourselves" as I defined was separating ourselves from our sin.

[SilentOne]

Grunt had a few questions I think could use a little more engagement here. So I'm going to start engaging with them.

On 12/8/2018 at 6:38 AM, Grunt said:

What is forgiveness, though?

My first thoughts, not very deeply thought through because I'm planning to get to bed soon, say that an important element of forgiveness is letting go of your negative feelings regarding whatever was done to you and wishing the perpetrator well.

On 12/8/2018 at 6:38 AM, Grunt said:

We say we forgive others all the time.  I honestly believe we typically mean it and act as such, too.  However, does forgiving someone set the clock back to before the transgression?  In most cases I don't believe that is possible.  If your spouse is unfaithful you forgive them and work to restore normalcy to your relationship.

 

If you have reason to suspect they will hurt you again, you remember and act accordingly. That doesn't mean you haven't forgiven them; it just means you're acting wisely. If you find yourself daydreaming about the day when they suffer for all the pain they've caused you, then I'd say you really haven't forgiven them.

On 12/8/2018 at 6:38 AM, Grunt said:

How long does it take to reset the hearts and minds in the relationship to the point they were at prior to the infidelity? Is it ever even possible?

For something big like infidelity, I don't think you'd ever get back to the exact same place. Your relationship can eventually get as good as or better than it was, but not in the same way. This is based on what I've heard from people who know more than I do.

[Traveler]

Sometimes I think that repentance is viewed as something we do to end a particular sin we have committed.  Growing up in the home of my parents - I was taught that there are two things necessary to bring about change (specifically but not necessarily in one's life):

The first is to stop doing what you have always done.  Sometimes I think the impression is that a sin is excused an anomaly as though it occurred on accident and without preparation.  Again from the lessons of my youth in the home of my parents - what we do now is that which we have prepared to do not just from our birth but from eternity.

The second is to start doing something that you have never done before.

Now I would bring up the principle of forgiveness and repentance - I say principle because it would seem that especially on this forum that there is a over emphasis on DOCTRINE and that principles are lost in the shadows of doctrine.  The principle of repentance is not just to stop sinning - in the Bible Dictionary published by the Church - repentance is define as a change of heart and mind.  It is my understanding that our heart is not that organ the pumps mortal blood to the cells of our flesh - rather our heart is the core of who we are and that includes the summation of all that we have thus strived to be and become.    Thus repentance is not completed by putting aside sin.  Repentance is achieved by becoming a Saint of G-d - walking in the light of the spirit of Christ by covenant.  Though repentance begins with the initial step of forsaking our sins - it is not complete until we forsake all sin - including the pain and suffering (damnation) of sin.

Now the principle of forgiveness.  Many think that when we forgive we release others from the obligation and responsibility of their acts.  This is a false and misleading doctrine.  The principle of forgiveness is that we release ourselves from the pain and suffering (damnation) of all the sins for which Christ suffered - which include our sins as well as the sins of others redeemed by the Atonement.  Interestingly the principle of forgiveness requires the Atonement of Christ - and without it our forgiveness is in vain and is worthless as well as meaningless.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 23, 2018 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:52 PM, Carborendum said:

he was not able to stop committing the sin.  I believed that if he's listening to Satan's voice that tells him that HE is the problem, not the sin, then he will be prevented from full repentance

Or maybe the problem is that he won't stop committing the sin