Daniel 3:25

[mikbone]

 

From this week's Gospel Doctrine lesson

 

Quote

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II

Nebuchadnezzar is the person speaking here.  And he does something amazing.  

This is the Old Testament and he uses the term Son of God to describe the forth personage that he saw in the fiery furnace.  

This is the only instance within the Old Testament where we find the term the Son of God.

The closest thing I can find is this:

Quote

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

 

So here is the question:

1) Who is in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego?

2) I went to the original Aramaic and it is not a mis-translation.

From the WAVE Bible app

And new to me, the Book of Daniel is written in 2 languages Hebrew at the beginning and end & Biblical Aramaic from verses 2:4 - 7:28

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5217/why-is-daniel-chapter-24-728-written-in-aramaic

3) Did Nebuchadnezzar misspeak and really mean to say that it was a personage that seemed to have godlike qualities (he was previously a polytheist as a follower of the Babylonian gods Nabu and Marduk).  And in Daniel 3:28 he refers to this personage as an angel.  

4) Or from Daniel 3:26 we see that Nebuchadnezzar called Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego servants of the most high God.  Perhaps Nebuchadnezzar was inspired by the Holy Ghost and was making a statement of fact.  Was the statement a parapraxis? 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by mikbone
Biblical Aramaic

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

So here is the question:

1) Who is in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego?

2) I went to the original Aramaic and it is not a mis-translation.

3) Did Nebuchadnezzar misspeak and really mean to say that it was a personage that seemed to have godlike qualities (he was previously a polytheist as a follower of the Babylonian gods Nabu and Marduk).  And in Daniel 3:28 he refers to this personage as an angel.  

4) Or from Daniel 3:26 we see that Nebuchadnezzar called Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego servants of the most high God.  Perhaps Nebuchadnezzar was inspired by the Holy Ghost and was making a statement of fact.  Was the statement a parapraxis?

1) Who is in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego?

It is the Son of God, Jehovah in the furnace with them as the scripture specifies.

3) Did Nebuchadnezzar misspeak and really mean to say that it was a personage that seemed to have godlike qualities (he was previously a polytheist as a follower of the Babylonian gods Nabu and Marduk).  And in Daniel 3:28 he refers to this personage as an angel.  

I would think one important aspect that hasn't been mentioned is that these may not have actually been King Nebuchadnezzar's words. He may have actually described who was in the fire, and those writing the script (as they were believers) filled in the blank who it was. It is more likely this is the case.

His reference to angle, could also be a translation from what he said and "angel" fit to describe his word. For someone who didn't know the Son of God, an angel sent to protect would be a correct term.

4) Or from Daniel 3:26 we see that Nebuchadnezzar called Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego servants of the most high God.  Perhaps Nebuchadnezzar was inspired by the Holy Ghost and was making a statement of fact.  Was the statement a parapraxis?

My thoughts would specify that King Nebuchadnezzar was using the language and wording he had heard from Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, or simply again a translation from what he actually said from those who wrote the text in the scriptures.

It is plausible though that even the kings mind and eyes could have been opened enough to speak -- at this moment -- according to the Spirit of the Lord allowing him to use words he may not have originally used.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, mikbone said:

2) I went to the original Aramaic and it is not a mis-translation.

3) Did Nebuchadnezzar misspeak and really mean to say that it was a personage that seemed to have godlike qualities (he was previously a polytheist as a follower of the Babylonian gods Nabu and Marduk).

This may be an interesting theological commentary for Christians.  Or it may be a linguistic trick.  Prepare for a bit of a roller coaster ride.

If I'm remembering my ancient languages correctly, Nebuchadnezzar would have been speaking either Akkadian or more probably Chaldee.  The Chaldee rendering of the same statement uses the plural form of "gods".  The Aramaic translation also uses the plural.

The Hebrew does as well. But the Hebrew plural "elohim" (though technically a plural noun) can be used as a singular given contextual triggers.  And here it is singular based on context.

So, we have two languages that use a plural and one language that indicates singular.

Then there is a question of the definite article "the".  Ancient Aramaic didn't use articles.  It relied on context to determine if it was definite or indefinite.  And here it is definite.

So, that doesn't really work.  How can you have a singular son with a plural parentage?  Hmmm... Mother and Father?

Well, remember that Nebucadnezzar was a polytheist.  He had no problem with a male and female god having a child.  However, that would make the son a full god, not a demigod.  So, why bother saying "son of"?  Well, a modern Jewish rendering actually translates it as "as one of the gods."  It takes "son" completely out of the translation.

I figure that the "best fit line" which averages all these together would be a polytheist said "a son of the gods" in his native language.  And a Jew or Christian rendered it as "The Son of God" in either Hebrew or Aramaic.

*****************************

All that said as a linguistic analysis, being a Latter-day Saint I also rely on modern revelation to reveal some "facts" not generally known.  Based on that additional information, I believe it really was Nebuchadnezzar having been taught by these four sons of Israel in the ways of "The One True God" that he had learned some of their beliefs.  And as keepers of the faith, they did know about the promised Messiah.  And they knew of the prophecies of Isaiah pointing to the Condescension of God.

And when he saw a glorious being that reminded him of the demigods of his own myth and legend, he couldn't think of anything other than a demigod or similar figure.  So, he automatically put that being into such a category.  And it is also possible that the Holy Ghost opened his eyes a bit at that moment.  He could really have said "The Son of God" in his native tongue.

Regardless, I don't believe it was Jehovah in the furnace with them.  I believe it was an angel.  But this is really a minor point, and I could also be convinced otherwise.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Guest

[CV75]

11 hours ago, mikbone said:

From this week's Gospel Doctrine lesson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II

Nebuchadnezzar is the person speaking here.  And he does something amazing.  

This is the Old Testament and he uses the term Son of God to describe the forth personage that he saw in the fiery furnace.  

This is the only instance within the Old Testament where we find the term the Son of God.

The closest thing I can find is this:

So here is the question:

1) Who is in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego?

2) I went to the original Aramaic and it is not a mis-translation.

3) Did Nebuchadnezzar misspeak and really mean to say that it was a personage that seemed to have godlike qualities (he was previously a polytheist as a follower of the Babylonian gods Nabu and Marduk).  And in Daniel 3:28 he refers to this personage as an angel.  

4) Or from Daniel 3:26 we see that Nebuchadnezzar called Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego servants of the most high God.  Perhaps Nebuchadnezzar was inspired by the Holy Ghost and was making a statement of fact.  Was the statement a parapraxis? 

I like to think it was the premortal Jesus Christ or one of his emissaries including someone from Zion. But these words were passed down through the ages and then recorded by other people, so we don't rally know. Nebuchadnezzar may have diplomatically identified this personage as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego's Jehovah; some other god he is comparing to himself (referring to himself as the Son of God, using the third person); making it up so that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego are no higher, or on a par, with one of his own gods; or any of the suggestions you mentioned. It might as well have been Jesus Christ!

[mikbone]

I just went on a side tangent and discovered the interesting linguistic composition of the Book of Daniel. (I edited the original post with the details)

Makes me wish I had been a biblical scholar in undergrad instead of a jock.

It is wonderful that we have Mormon and Moroni as the original editors of the Book of Mormon.  It would have been so much more useful if the Bible was similarly edited and we had the editors commentary. Another testament of the veracity of the Book of Mormon!

This incident is very similar to the Book of Mormon account of the three Nephite disciples who also survived a fiery furnace in 3 NE 28 (one of my favorite chapters btw)

I want the angel to be Jehovah.  It is whom I picture in my mind.  It could have been an unembodied spirit or a translated personage.  But I think that Jehovah would have done this personally.  These young men were willing to die for their beliefs this kind of dedication is worthy of a personal visitation of the Savior.  The Savior loves us and wants to protect us.  

Daniel 3:17  If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

It also reminds me of the first vision.

I think that Jehovah is closer than many of us assume.

Edited December 9, 2018 by mikbone