Men as Providers


Rob Osborn
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We are taught that men are to preside and provide for their families. In an ever changing world where gender equality is the new task force of current philosophy I am left reserved to defend gender roles in the traditional sense. Men and women are indeed equal partners in the home and society. Each has their advantages and skills. But I am getting more troubled with this movement in gender equality in the workplace. I am all for both men and women in the workplace- we need both sexes. Im even for more equal pay, especially for single mothers raising children. But the flip side is the trend to make "all" jobs as equal opportinity and equal pay. D9nt get me wrong, if a women wants to be a lumberjack and she can handle a heavy chainsaw and axe everyday then by all means- go for it! But, the reality is that in general, men are biologically at advantage on average amongst all jobs. It has nothing to do with sexism, its just reality that God created the male to be a worker to provide for and protect his family. So, why do we feel so threatened by this fact of reality? Why are we so concerned to try to even up the genders in the task of "providing"? Its not like we can engineer the women to bulk up the needed 35% muscle mass to get them on par with the male anatomy. I was reading one study that suggested that what was needed is to get men to work less so that women arent at a disadvantage! No joke! Another article and study about women soldiers on the frontline in war proposed that in order to equalize the roles, perhaps men soldiers in training should be held back while women get extra training so that they were more equal in the end. 

I think we are taking this "equality" well beyond the equalness God sees in his children and their roles. God never meant that we should be equal in "all" things. Obviously our creations are similar and yet very different. In the church we see this in practice all the time. A typicsl "work project" carried out by the elders quorum to reroof a house will see pretty much all men doing that work whereas with a funeral almost all of the meals and compassionate care are handled hy women in the relief society. We all have work, its just so different as viewed through Gods eyes. 

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

But I am getting more troubled with this movement in gender equality in the workplace

Good luck it's only going to get worse.  Except if you notice the "equality" in the workplace is only one way.  It is only one way into high-paying prestigious jobs . . .you know the ones that in general require extreme amount of sacrifice, hard work, smarts and dedication.

You'll never see the "equality" army push for more women to be lumberjacks or for more men to be nurses.  In fact, you won't see "equality" pushing for woman to be drafted-the ultimate "equality" in the workplace.

And the only way it stops if for women to stop it-when women want their husbands to stop competing with other woman for scare resources so their husband can bring home more for the family, when women decide to take a stand and push back against the evils of "equality" then it will stop . . .otherwise it won't.

Edited by boxer
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44 minutes ago, Iggy said:

Color me confused but @Carborendum it was @MarginOfError who made the statement you quoted? ?

 

12 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

If I understand correctly, Carb is implying that I should be ignored for pursuing a statement to a ludicrous extreme.

You guys need to learn to speak Carb.  He's telling MoE that Rob's statement that MoE quoted is why Carb has Rob on his ignore list.  Get it?   :)

But, to be fair to Rob, I don't think he meant that MoE is biologically a better programmer than me.  I think he simply meant that men are biologically more advantaged to be providers than nurturers because... well, they don't get pregnant.  Modern technology - birth control pills, tampons, computers (the one thing that made work flexible - I was just watching a YouTube video of this single woman living as a nomad in her RV running 6 businesses from her computer) - has made that female disadvantage a whole lot lesser which is why women can now juggle a job and motherhood.

Where I say that Feminism is cancer is this modern feminists push to abandon their responsibilities as Mothers as part of... muh, Patriarchy.

Edited by anatess2
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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

You guys need to learn to speak Carb.  He's telling MoE that Rob's statement that MoE quoted is why Carb has Rob on his ignore list.  Get it?   :)

But, to be fair to Rob, I don't think he meant that MoE is biologically a better programmer than me.  I think he simply meant that men are biologically more advantaged to be providers than nurturers because... well, they don't get pregnant.  Modern technology - birth control pills, tampons, computers (the one thing that made work flexible - I was just watching a YouTube video of this single woman living as a nomad in her RV running 6 businesses from her computer) - has made that female disadvantage a whole lot lesser which is why women can now juggle a job and motherhood.

 

He better not be saying it.  I single-handedly crashed our test server yesterday.

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3 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

What makes you think I do?  :D

Speaking of which...if we're going to stereotype...

Man gets assigned to move Big Heavy Thing.  Man lifts, carries, accomplishes, then is laid out flat for two days with a back injury that may plague him the rest of his life.

Woman gets assigned to move Big Heavy Thing. Woman assembles a team of women to assess the problem, contrive a device that moves Big Heavy Thing with minimal effort or risk of injury to the team involved. Woman goes home, cooks dinner, takes care of kids, and nurses Man who can't roll over in bed because his back hurts.

So which sex is better suited to provide for the family?

Edited by MarginOfError
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11 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Speaking of which...if we're going to stereotype...

Man gets assigned to move Big Heavy Thing.  Man lifts, carries, accomplishes, then is laid out flat for two days with a back injury that may plague him the rest of his life.

Woman gets assigned to move Big Heavy Thing. Woman assembles a team of women to assess the problem, contrive a device that moves Big Heavy Thing with minimal effort or risk of injury to the team involved. Woman goes home, cooks dinner, takes care of kids, and nurses Man who can't roll over in bed because his back hurts.

So which sex is better suited to provide for the family?

The Man.

There are dumb men and there are dumb women.  Women don't "contrive a device".  They call men.

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Guest MormonGator

What if a man is more comfortable raising children/counseling people at funerals than he is at roofing, fixing cars, etc? Is he just forced to do things he doesn't like/isn't comfortable at? Next, what if a woman is great at building furniture, repaving driveways, and loves working outside the home? Luckily, in 2018 it's getting more acceptable to just be yourself rather than be forced to submit to traditional gender roles even if you aren't comfortable. 

Since it's kind of hard for one person to change society, it's best to adapt instead of complaining about it. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

What if a man is more comfortable raising children/counseling people at funerals than he is at roofing, fixing cars, etc? Is he just forced to do things he doesn't like/isn't comfortable at? Next, what if a woman is great at building furniture, repaving driveways, and loves working outside the home? Luckily, in 2018 it's getting more acceptable to just be yourself rather than be forced to submit to traditional gender roles even if you aren't comfortable. 

Since it's kind of hard for one person to change society, it's best to adapt instead of complaining about it. 

You make a fine point, but usually discussions like these are based on trends and averages.  Are there guys who are better suited to take care of the homefront than the women they married?  Certainly.  I don't think anybody would argue against that.  The thing is, as a general rule, men and women tend to gravitate toward roles that go along with their stereotypes, when all other factors are equal.

Look at Scandinavia.  It's got the most egalitarian societies in the world.  They take great pains to push equality between the sexes, and yet male engineers vastly outnumber female engineers even there, as female nurses vastly outnumber male ones.  People are sorting themselves into the stereotype with -zero- pressure on them to do so.

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2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

You make a fine point, but usually discussions like these are based on trends and averages.  Are there guys who are better suited to take care of the homefront than the women they married?  Certainly.  I don't think anybody would argue against that.  The thing is, as a general rule, men and women tend to gravitate toward roles that go along with their stereotypes, when all other factors are equal.

Look at Scandinavia.  It's got the most egalitarian societies in the world.  They take great pains to push equality between the sexes, and yet male engineers vastly outnumber female engineers even there, as female nurses vastly outnumber male ones.  People are sorting themselves into the stereotype with -zero- pressure on them to do so.

Oh I agree-just reminding everyone that there are some men/women out there who are perfectly happy, loyal members of the church but don't subscribe to the traditional gender roles of society. 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Oh I agree-just reminding everyone that there are some men/women out there who are perfectly happy, loyal members of the church but don't subscribe to the traditional gender roles of society. 

Oh yeah totally.  A thought does occur to me though...

And I'm just kinda letting  my overactive little introvert brain off the leash for a minute here... but what if... what if these roles exist for a particular reason?  We often semi-jokingly say that men hold the Priesthood and women do not, because we need the help... or because we need something to do, being as the women are way to busy to be out there exercising the Presthood doing Priesthood things. 

What if... a husband who is the homemaker is thus hampered in his ability to exercise his Priesthood role?  (Not saying he is or isn't, just letting my mind wander here)  but I try to imagine my wife, and when she would ever have the time to do anything the Priesthood does because she runs the house full time.  If you're the one who manages the kids, who handles the meals, who handles household paperwork, who manages the state of the house...  when are you going to have the time for going out there and giving Blessings when needed?  Or participate in splits? or attend meetings?  Or having the sort of leadership calling that takes you out of the home for an amount of time comparable to a second job?  

Is it possible (again, the answer might be 'no') that male roles are important because of the dovetail with the  Priesthood holding aspect?  In that sense, is a man who is the homemaker thus put in a position to either bow out of magnifying his Priesthood calling or let the home fall into disarray?

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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, unixknight said:

Is it possible (again, the answer might be 'no') that male roles are important because of the dovetail with the  Priesthood holding aspect?  In that sense, is a man who is the homemaker thus put in a position to either bow out of magnifying his Priesthood calling or let the home fall into disarray?

If it is, than I'm doomed. I'd rather take a shotgun blast to the stomach than go camping, work on a car, do any kind of fixing the house housework, anything traditionally "masculine".

Edited by MormonGator
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57 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

What if a man is more comfortable raising children/counseling people at funerals than he is at roofing, fixing cars, etc? Is he just forced to do things he doesn't like/isn't comfortable at? Next, what if a woman is great at building furniture, repaving driveways, and loves working outside the home? Luckily, in 2018 it's getting more acceptable to just be yourself rather than be forced to submit to traditional gender roles even if you aren't comfortable. 

Since it's kind of hard for one person to change society, it's best to adapt instead of complaining about it. 

 

49 minutes ago, unixknight said:

You make a fine point, but usually discussions like these are based on trends and averages.  Are there guys who are better suited to take care of the homefront than the women they married?  Certainly.  I don't think anybody would argue against that.  The thing is, as a general rule, men and women tend to gravitate toward roles that go along with their stereotypes, when all other factors are equal.

Look at Scandinavia.  It's got the most egalitarian societies in the world.  They take great pains to push equality between the sexes, and yet male engineers vastly outnumber female engineers even there, as female nurses vastly outnumber male ones.  People are sorting themselves into the stereotype with -zero- pressure on them to do so.

If you want to wear the skirt in the house, then you find a wife who wants to wear the pants.  Hopefully, you're not going to whine and moan when she decides to ditch the pants to carry the baby for 9 months and recuperate from childbirth.  They haven't yet found a way for the man to be the pregnant one.

The fact of the matter is:  In a household, if there is no food on the table because nobody wants to make the money to buy food, you don't blame the woman for it.  You blame the man for it regardless of whether he wants to or is better at being the provider or not.  If the children are not fed because nobody wants to cook the food, you don't blame the man for it.  You blame the woman regardless of whether she wants to or is better at being a nurturer or not.

This new-fangled - "I don't want to be forced to do something I don't want to do" is a luxury for First Worlders where "finding themselves" is made a higher priority than the welfare of the next generation.  It being 2018 is completely irrelevant.

Edited by anatess2
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4 hours ago, Iggy said:

Color me confused but @Carborendum it was @MarginOfError who made the statement you quoted? ?

3 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

If I understand correctly, Carb is implying that I should be ignored for pursuing a statement to a ludicrous extreme.

Not quite.

3 hours ago, zil said:

he's saying that he ignores Rob because Rob makes such ludicrous statements - in seriousness, not in jest.

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You guys need to learn to speak Carb.  He's telling MoE that Rob's statement that MoE quoted is why Carb has Rob on his ignore list. 

Exactly.

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We have a couple ‘men’ in our ward who have been unemployed for an extended period of time.  Their wives have taken up the slack and are providing for the family.  

They have this habbit of referring to themselves as full-time fathers.  Drives me freakin crazy.

One of the guys gave a talk in sacrament about service and explained how you cannot provide service in an area where you work and receive a salary...

Anyway when I introduce myself I always add that I’m a full time father as well.

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Huh?

For example, I fix bones.  

If someone in my ward breaks a bone and I fix it I dont charge them.  

This is not service by his defination.

And because he does not have a job, everything he does is service.

Edited by mikbone
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