Trump and the Caravan

[anatess2]

This is for you, @LatterDSaint, and all those who think Trump is "cruel" to migrants.

 

[JohnsonJones]

Interesting video

[prisonchaplain]

Maybe I am a conspiracy theorist on this issue. Republicans and Democrats could solve the immigration problem, but the temptation to politicize keeps them from doing so. Republicans decry the Democrats "open borders" mentality and the Democrats call the Republicans racist and heartless. A bit of money, technology, and compassionate compromise could resolve our immigration problem, enhance America's reputation around the world, and, most importantly, bless thousands of families and individuals.

Yeah, yeah...but why work with the open borders crowd? Why miss the opportunity to call out the heartless racists? So, take a 30-second break fighters, and we'll get back to the show, unimpeded by @prisonchaplain's ridiculous call to compromise . . .

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Maybe I am a conspiracy theorist on this issue. Republicans and Democrats could solve the immigration problem, but the temptation to politicize keeps them from doing so. Republicans decry the Democrats "open borders" mentality and the Democrats call the Republicans racist and heartless. A bit of money, technology, and compassionate compromise could resolve our immigration problem, enhance America's reputation around the world, and, most importantly, bless thousands of families and individuals.

Yeah, yeah...but why work with the open borders crowd? Why miss the opportunity to call out the heartless racists? So, take a 30-second break fighters, and we'll get back to the show, unimpeded by @prisonchaplain's ridiculous call to compromise . . .

You're not a conspiracy theorist.  You are simply wrong.  There's no need for a compromise because you already have one.  It's called... LEGAL MIGRATION.

And another thing you got wrong is that Democrats and Republicans want to solve the immigration problem.  None of them do.  You had 8 years of Reagan, 8 years of Clinton, 8 years of Bush, 8 years of Obama... They're still talking about the same idiot problem they've talked about for decades.  Trump wants to solve the immigration problem.  Guess why he hasn't yet?  Because Congress doesn't!

[prisonchaplain]

@anatess2 You think me wrong, but then mostly agree with me. I said that Republicans and Democrats could solve the problem but have not. As for legal immigration, it could work much more efficently than it does. Further, the system could be amended to allow for Mexicans to work legally in this country, and then return home when their employment ends. As for President Trump, I hope you are right. As for congress, I wish you were wrong.

[NeuroTypical]

Heh - I was waiting for some news like this to show up.

I haven't watched the video, so tell me: Does it talk about halfway towards the border, the left figured out the whole issue was helping Trump more than it hurt him, so they slowed down the crowd until after the election?

[zil]

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

@anatess2 You think me wrong, but then mostly agree with me. I said that Republicans and Democrats could solve the problem but have not. As for legal immigration, it could work much more efficently than it does. Further, the system could be amended to allow for Mexicans to work legally in this country, and then return home when their employment ends. As for President Trump, I hope you are right. As for congress, I wish you were wrong.

I apologize if I wasn't clear.  Here are the 2 statements that I believe is wrong:

1.)  Republicans and Democrats could solve the immigration problem,
They could not.  Not "have not".  Could not.  Saying they could is assuming that they see it is a problem.

2.)  compassionate compromise could resolve our immigration problem,
The compromise is in the LEGAL migration process.  "Compassionate" is not the issue with Legal Migration.

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I apologize if I wasn't clear.  Here are the 2 statements that I believe is wrong:

1.)  Republicans and Democrats could solve the immigration problem,
They could not.  Not "have not".  Could not.  Saying they could is assuming that they see it is a problem.

2.)  compassionate compromise could resolve our immigration problem,
The compromise is in the LEGAL migration process.  "Compassionate" is not the issue with Legal Migration.

Concerning #1: They have not. That is clear. They have the ability to fix it, and they at least claim to know it is a problem. You are right, though--that they believe the benefits of maintaining the status quo, with the political points they gain from exciting their bases, outweighs the benefits of fixing immigration.

Concerning #2:  Enforcing current immigration laws would be a compromise. However, they could also do some tinkering that would make it clearer and better. If would-be immigrants had a clear understanding of what is required for immigrating to the U.S., and what the wait times would consistently be, then they could make informed decisions. That would be good for them. It would be common sense and appear compassionate. Also, when we grant immigration to refugees, or to relieve hardship (vs. we really need those skilled workers) that is compassion.

[anatess2]

41 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Concerning #1: They have not. That is clear. They have the ability to fix it, and they at least claim to know it is a problem. You are right, though--that they believe the benefits of maintaining the status quo, with the political points they gain from exciting their bases, outweighs the benefits of fixing immigration.

I really don't think that the political leaders of both parties claim that the caravan, or even illegal immigration is a problem.  I don't count Trump in that statement as even though he is a Republican, his position is not the usual position of Republicans.  The debate has always been around what to do with the undocumented migrants currently in the US with not much consideration for those still illegally entering the US.  This is one of the reasons Trump got a lot of support right out of the gate.  He's the only one talking about closing the borders.

And here is the reason why I believe this... when even the LDS Church makes public newsroom statements that its membership can take home as opposition to securing the southern border, and you have the Pope promoting opening American borders, you're going to be hard pressed to find Republican leadership thinking it's a problem.

 

41 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Concerning #2:  Enforcing current immigration laws would be a compromise. However, they could also do some tinkering that would make it clearer and better. If would-be immigrants had a clear understanding of what is required for immigrating to the U.S., and what the wait times would consistently be, then they could make informed decisions. That would be good for them. It would be common sense and appear compassionate. Also, when we grant immigration to refugees, or to relieve hardship (vs. we really need those skilled workers) that is compassion.

I've been through this process as well as my family.  That is not an issue.  We know what to expect.  We expect migrating into the US to be difficult.  You have 750 million people worldwide wanting to go into the US.  You can't survive that much population and maintain your quality of life.  Therefore, being very very selective in the screening process, putting as much delay as you need to slow the incoming into a trickle is to your best interest.  Although my mother became an American citizen through chain migration - through my brother - I have zero problem with the USA ending that practice.  My siblings who received American citizenship received it through merit.  I received permanent residency through merit.

As far as refugees and asylum seekers, the world is better off for the US to help those people in their own countries than absorbing them all into the USA, especially when they refuse to assimilate into the American culture.  These people need to be empowered to take back their own country.  "Appearing compassionate" for the sake of appearances is a disservice to these people when such acts of compassion just feeds the cycle of oppression.  I worked with Bosnian refugees.  We took in a lot of them in the US, usually severely wounded soldiers and families with small children.  Most of them stayed in Bosnia (through their own desire) to take back their country.

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by anatess2

[Jamie123]

Actually I quite agree. I would expect Donald Trump to say "America First". He is President of America (well actually the United States of America, but you know what I mean), and its his job to look out for the interests of America (OK..the USA).

Just as I'd expect Theresa May to say "Britain First".

Just as I do my own job but not other people's. I don't go around the streets making sure cars aren't parked illegally. I do not think it's my responsibility to make sure planes don't crash, or that the roads get gritted whenever it snows. That doesn't mean I think those things are unimportant - of course they are. It's just that there are other people who are paid to do those things. I'm paid to do my job, and Trump is paid to do his.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

and Trump is paid to do his.

Or not paid, as it is.

But yeah, he was elected to do a specific job of looking out for the interests of the USA. 

Macron was elected for the same thing for France and instead, he looked out for the interests of the EU and the UN and berated nationalism.  So now, he's being forcibly ejected by the same people who elected him. 

[Lost Boy]

To me building a wall is a complete waste of money.

You are far better off with policies changes and changes to laws to fix the issue.  Immigration reform is needed.  The current system essentially encourages illegal immigration.

1) dump the being born here makes you a citizen law.  That is just dumb.  If you don't have an American parent, then no automatic citizenship.  

2) Give the dreamers a path to citizenship

3) Make it easier to get work visas

4) Have an income tax specifically for certain visa holders.  So no free government handouts.  Pay their fair share.

5) Provide a path for illegals currently here to get a visa.  Say a $5000 and proof that they are not a burden on society... holding a good job, can pay taxes, etc.

[anatess2]

30 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

To me building a wall is a complete waste of money.

You are far better off with policies changes and changes to laws to fix the issue.  Immigration reform is needed.  The current system essentially encourages illegal immigration.

1) dump the being born here makes you a citizen law.  That is just dumb.  If you don't have an American parent, then no automatic citizenship.  

2) Give the dreamers a path to citizenship

3) Make it easier to get work visas

4) Have an income tax specifically for certain visa holders.  So no free government handouts.  Pay their fair share.

5) Provide a path for illegals currently here to get a visa.  Say a $5000 and proof that they are not a burden on society... holding a good job, can pay taxes, etc.

The wall budget is $5 Billion.  The cost of illegal immigration is $113 Billion per year.  The fact that it is ILLEGAL means they don't care about laws.  The makeshift wall with technology preventing the Caravan from entering the USA is proof that walls work and are cheaper to implement than using manpower to chase down illegal entrants sensed by technology with zero barriers, especially when you have political activists encouraging them to come in.

#1 and #2 are in conflict.  I'm good with changing citizenship requirements to jus sanguine.  I'm not good with dreamers getting citizenship.  Then there's no point in jus sanguine.  I would rather dreamers get a Z visa - becoming documented (legal) with permanent residency and work authorization but no path to citizenship - becoming a voting bloc that can then be manipulated/exploited.

#3 creates the same problem as illegal immigration.  As long as the US has an unemployment rate higher than 3% and depressed wages you should be issuing work visas only for specialized skill demand - like doctors and inventors.  Not crop picking.  You might say... but no American wants to pick crops!  Well, that's because illegal immigration has caused crop picking to operate through slave wages.  Issuing work visas for crop pickers would be the exact same thing.  You already have an overflow of H1B visas - especially in the IT areas where people from India happy to work for $12/hr are competing against Americans with $50,000 college debt.  "But the price of lettuce will jump up to $2 per head!".  Yep.  Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism where price of goods are controlled by demand and not slave wages.  No minimum wage requirements necessary.

#4 is bad.  It's exploitation - making non-citizens pay a bigger share for your "roads and bridges" to which they have no voting power over - taxation without representation.  Legal immigrants pay the same income tax as American citizens, therefore, they are paying their "fair share" for the privilege of availing of US infrastructure and legal protections.  They don't qualify for government handouts in today's system.

#5 this is good as long as the visa is a Z visa - no path to citizenship.

#5

Edited December 12, 2018 by anatess2

[Lost Boy]

28 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The wall budget is $5 Billion.  The cost of illegal immigration is $113 Billion per year.  The fact that it is ILLEGAL means they don't care about laws.  The makeshift wall with technology preventing the Caravan from entering the USA is proof that walls work and are cheaper to implement than using manpower to chase down illegal entrants sensed by technology with zero barriers, especially when you have political activists encouraging them to come in.

#1 and #2 are in conflict.  I'm good with changing citizenship requirements to jus sanguine.  I'm not good with dreamers getting citizenship.  Then there's no point in jus sanguine.  I would rather dreamers get a Z visa - becoming documented (legal) with permanent residency and work authorization but no path to citizenship - becoming a voting bloc that can then be manipulated/exploited.

#3 creates the same problem as illegal immigration.  As long as the US has an unemployment rate higher than 3% and depressed wages you should be issuing work visas only for specialized skill demand - like doctors and inventors.  Not crop picking.  You might say... but no American wants to pick crops!  Well, that's because illegal immigration has caused crop picking to operate through slave wages.  Issuing work visas for crop pickers would be the exact same thing.  You already have an overflow of H1B visas - especially in the IT areas where people from India happy to work for $12/hr are competing against Americans with $50,000 college debt.  "But the price of lettuce will jump up to $2 per head!".  Yep.  Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism where price of goods are controlled by demand and not slave wages.  No minimum wage requirements necessary.

#4 is bad.  It's exploitation - making non-citizens pay a bigger share for your "roads and bridges" to which they have no voting power over - taxation without representation.  Legal immigrants pay the same income tax as American citizens, therefore, they are paying their "fair share" for the privilege of availing of US infrastructure and legal protections.  They don't qualify for government handouts in today's system.

#5 this is good as long as the visa is a Z visa - no path to citizenship.

#5

I don't really see #1 and #2 in conflict.  Most of the dreamers only know the U.S.. They would be in dire straights if deported.  So if you are going to allow them to stay, they should be given a path to citizenship.  But there should also be a cut off that Anyone entering in after a certain date does not have the option.

As for #3, the true capitalist would welcome the cheaper labor.  True capitalist would oppose any type of minimum wage and let the market decide what the wage should be.  Not allowing them to come in would as you say increase the price of produce.  But it would also drive production outside of the U.S..  So instead of the jobs being here, they are off shored.  And your farmers go out of work.  And as far as I know slaves didn't get wages.  Those that work the fields do so by choice and are happy with the pay.

#4 Not exploitation.  Exploitation is them coming here and costing our system $113 billion/year based on the number you provided.  Having a special tax on certain visa holders fixes that issue.  I am not asking for anything more...  Actually, I would want one more thing.  They be required to carry health insurance.

[NeuroTypical]

lol.

https://www.newsweek.com/migrant-caravan-let-us-or-give-each-us-50000-turn-around-and-go-home-1255043

Quote

Central American asylum seekers in Mexican border town Tijuana reportedly marched to the U.S. Consulate on Tuesday to present the Trump administration with an ultimatum: Let us into the country or give us $50,000 each to turn back home.

The demand came a month after asylum seekers began to arrive in Tijuana. Many still face weeks, if not months, of waiting in the border town before their asylum claims can be processed. 

 

[anatess2]

27 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't really see #1 and #2 in conflict.  Most of the dreamers only know the U.S.. They would be in dire straights if deported.  So if you are going to allow them to stay, they should be given a path to citizenship.  But there should also be a cut off that Anyone entering in after a certain date does not have the option.

They are illegal entrants.  How do you prove when they entered?

I can agree that dreamers only know the US.  But, just as it's not their fault they are in the US, it is also not the US fault they're in the US.   Nobody is talking about deporting dreamers not even Trump.  Although saying "they would be in dire straits if deported" is not quite accurate because dreamers all have family outside of the US and the remittances of money from the US to foreign countries show it.    The US benefits from having dreamers documented through legalization but giving them a path to citizenship is not necessary.

Quote

As for #3, the true capitalist would welcome the cheaper labor.  True capitalist would oppose any type of minimum wage and let the market decide what the wage should be.  Not allowing them to come in would as you say increase the price of produce.  But it would also drive production outside of the U.S..  So instead of the jobs being here, they are off shored.  And your farmers go out of work.  And as far as I know slaves didn't get wages.  Those that work the fields do so by choice and are happy with the pay.

A true capitalist would welcome cheap labor.  That's why Republicans don't see a problem with illegal immigration except Trump and his section of the Republican Party.  Yes, the market decides what wages should be but capitalism operates on a fair market system.  Those illegal immigrants that work the fields do so by choice in comparison with the wages of their home countries where $1 has a different buying power making the market system unfair for Americans as immigrants are competing with American labor where $1 has a buying power of exactly $1, not 20 pesos.

Off-shoring is not solved by ARTIFICIALLY lowering wages in the USA.  As Trump has proven in the re-negotiation of trade deals, off-shoring is stopped by reducing taxes, reducing excessive regulations, and balancing tariffs.

Slaves got free room and board.  India would gladly work in the US by choice and be happy with $12.  Where does that leave Americans?  Same place as they were 2 years ago... with a very high percentage of new university graduates sitting unemployed in their mother's basement eating tendies.

 

Quote

#4 Not exploitation.  Exploitation is them coming here and costing our system $113 billion/year based on the number you provided.  Having a special tax on certain visa holders fixes that issue.  I am not asking for anything more...  Actually, I would want one more thing.  They be required to carry health insurance.

Illegal immigrants cost your system $113 Billion per year.  LEGAL IMMIGRANTS like myself do not.  Health insurance is not healthcare.  There are people like myself who do not carry your standard health insurance as we have different plans for getting health care.

Edited December 12, 2018 by anatess2