The Next World Order and Social Justice

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Welcome to the internet. You must be new here. 

Sure, most do at some point.  I believe a lot of people on this site don't do that very often.  But with 2RM, it is his modus operandi.

[2ndRateMind]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

That's not what I asked.  But. true to form, you're going to continue to dodge or ignore questions that completely destroy your argument.

Thank you for showing your true colors.

It may not be what you asked, but it was nevertheless an answer relevant to your question and the theme of the thread. If you do not like the answer I gave, so be it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

]  But with 2RM, it is his modus operandi.

Yup, agree 100%. So why bother? 

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Yup, agree 100%. So why bother? 

I just cling to a sliver of hope that he may actually see that his position doesn't hold water when he can't even provide a response that addresses the question.  But I guess that's just asking too much.

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 But with 2RM, it is his modus operandi.

And it the same subject over and over again...As if he expects to get different answers from the other threads he has repeatably addressed this subject on

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I just cling to a sliver of hope that he may actually see that his position doesn't hold water when he can't even provide a response that addresses the question.

Put your hope in things that have at least a slight chance of happening. Not the mathematically impossible. 

[2ndRateMind]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The problem there is applying that analogy correctly in a real world setting.  If I'm 5'-2" and I want to be an NBA player, then do I get the basket lowered for me so I have the same distance to jump as the taller players?  Is that how we'd make it "the same distance"?

Oh, all right then, seeing as how recalcitrant you are, and how reluctant to engage with the more fundamental points I am making, just as the finishing line should be the same distance away for all sprinters, so, too, should be the height of the basket be for all players. Now, can we dispense with the trivia, and proceed to the substance?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

I think it's important to remember that many people (not all, many) don't come on the internet to learn/discuss/debate. They come to preach. This is especially true with the hardcore anti-Mormons and the hardcore social justice warriors, but it's probably true with many of us.

[wenglund]

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I just cling to a sliver of hope that he may actually see that his position doesn't hold water when he can't even provide a response that addresses the question.  

You don't understand. To the Left, the only answer to any political question is Post-modernism/Neo-Marxism. Nothing else matters.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited December 18, 2018 by wenglund

[2ndRateMind]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think it's important to remember that many people (not all, many) don't come on the internet to learn/discuss/debate. They come to preach. This is especially true with the hardcore anti-Mormons and the hardcore social justice warriors, but it's probably true with many of us.

 

Indeed. I find I learn most from those who disagree with me. Especially if they can justify their disagreements, rather than just pour out scorn and insults. After all, I already know what those who agree with me have to say. And mistakes are rarely discovered in a mutual admiration society.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited December 18, 2018 by 2ndRateMind

[unixknight]

14 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Then let me provide a clue. If I am an African peasant, scratching around for $2 per day, in what way do my children have 'equality of opportunity' with the offspring of a Western billionaire?

• Scholarships, which are not based on personal wealth
• Community resources at public libraries for education, Internet access and general interest
• Existing programs to promote STEM field education which are run by local governments, communities, etc.
• Public and private grant programs
• Student loan programs

There are probably more such resources but this is just what I came up with off the top of my head.  

If being in a poor inner city (or poor rural area) is also a disadvantage (which I concede they are) then that's a cultural problem that isn't  going to be solved by redistributing wealth.  Is it fair to the individual?  No.  But then, life isn't fair.  Some people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth, some people are born in an alley.  Some people are born with working eyes, some are blind.  Some people are born very healthy, some are born sickly.  Life isn't fair.  It never has been.  What counts isn't what you have, it's what you work for with what you're given.  

Just look at guys like Ben Carson.  Born poor in Detroit.  Dad not in the picture.  Illiterate single mom raising two boys.  He had every single factor stacked against him.  This man went on to become a famous Neurosurgeon, Presidential candidate and Cabinet Member.  Oh, and he's black, if that's important to you.  This is why leftists hate him.  He's living proof that what we're saying is true.  Could just anybody have done that?  No.  Of course Dr. Carson is exceptional.  But by the same token plenty of people who are born rich are utter losers and I wouldn't trade places with them for anything.  Paris Hilton was born rich and will die rich.  You think she's happier than Dr. Carson?  You think she's got a happier, more fulfilling life than YOU?  I bet she doesn't.

Redistribution of wealth is about class envy. Period. 

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

 

Indeed. I find I learn most from those who disagree with me. Especially if they can justify their disagreements, rather than just pour out scorn and insults. After all, I already know what those who agree with me have to say. And mistakes are rarely discovered in a mutual admiration society.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Good for you. The sign of a secure, intelligent person is the ability to listen to those who disagree with them. The sign of a fragile and weak mind is turning into a sniveling baby when presented with an idea that they don't already agree with. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by MormonGator

[2ndRateMind]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

But then, life isn't fair.  Some people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth, some people are born in an alley.  Some people are born with working eyes, some are blind.  Some people are born very healthy, some are born sickly.  Life isn't fair.  It never has been.

Agreed. But do you not think God gave us our sense of justice for a reason? To make life for each other, if not completely fair, then at least a tad more fair?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Agreed. But do you not think God gave us our sense of justice for a reason? To make life for each other, if not completely fair, then at least a tad more fair?

Justice is about righting wrongs.  Nowhere in Scripture is justice defined as fairness.  

[2ndRateMind]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Justice is about righting wrongs.  Nowhere in Scripture is justice defined as fairness.  

Do you think, then, that life should be unfair?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[unixknight]

Just now, 2ndRateMind said:

Do you think, then, that life should be unfair?

I don't think about it in those terms.  Define fairness.  Everybody has their own idea of what "fair" looks like.  So if we define fairness as "everybody is accountable for their own choices and what they do with their own resources" then yes, life should be fair by that definition, but that's my definition.

What's your definition?  I know you've probably expressed it in this thread but I'm asking for a definition to work with in this case.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, if we are all alike and share alike in Zion, is Zion Satan's plan?

Zion is voluntary, not forced. You don't have to live the Law of Consecration. 

[2ndRateMind]

4 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Define fairness.

That's not an easy thing to do. Just as defining beauty is not easy. But I think we recognise their absence when they are not present. I would want to throw this challenge out to the entire forum, to try to define 'fairness'.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited December 18, 2018 by 2ndRateMind

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, if we are all alike and share alike in Zion, is Zion Satan's plan?

I'm not interested in having a discussion with someone who cannot understand the difference between force and choice.

So....can you?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

36 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I just cling to a sliver of hope that he may actually see that his position doesn't hold water when he can't even provide a response that addresses the question.  But I guess that's just asking too much.

Logical thinking is not a natural inborn ability; it must be learned though study and careful application.

[unixknight]

Just now, 2ndRateMind said:

That's not an easy thing to do. But I think we recognise it's absence when it is not present. I would want to throw this challenge out to the entire forum, to try to define 'fairness'.

Not gonna let you off the hook on this one.    You've pushed for fairness a lot.  You should be able to define it.  Granted that isn't necessarily easy to do, but it's important.  I don't agree that we all recognize its absence when it isn't present.  This whole debate is fueled by the fact that we all have different notions of what fairness is, so how can we mutually agree when it's absent?

But I do think you're right to put out that challenge.  I think it would be an interesting exercise to see how each person defines "fairness."

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

9 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Do you think, then, that life should be unfair?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

What is fair?

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, 2ndRateMind said:

If the race is to be fair, it helps if everyone starts out the same distance from the finishing line.

And yet God didn't seem to see fit to make life "fair" in this regard. You cannot make everyone equally smart, equally coordinated, equally strong. The race is not fair. That's just reality.

3 hours ago, 2ndRateMind said:

I just want no one malnourished and in absolute poverty; no one dying of hunger; no one so poor they and their families starve. Is that really so hard to understand?

It is the means that is being questioned.

[The Folk Prophet]

18 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Nowhere in Scripture is justice defined as fairness.

I don't believe the scriptures make a habit of defining words. That doesn't mean they don't mean what they mean, of course.

Of course the scriptures are primarily concerned with eternal justice, not mortality. In other words, the injustice of mortality is specifically for the justice of eternity. 

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Do you think, then, that life should be unfair?

Obviously life should be unfair. It it weren't meant to be unfair then God would have made it fair. Do you believe God is cruel? Do you believe God is indifferent? Or do you believe God is, ultimately, eternally fair?

Of course the reality that life is unfair should not be used as an excuse for us to disregard our fellowman. We have been commanded to care for him. But, once again, it is the means that is in question.