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17 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I disagree. The fact that the three flavours lay next to each other, in a horizontal arrangement clearly suggests that in the celestial kingdom, there are three separate but equal conditions contained within the one boundary. If neopolitan ice cream was intended to be a symbolic representation of the three degrees of glory, then the flavours would be stacked one on top of the other in a vertical arrangement with the darker stuff on the bottom and the lighter stuff on top. Truth can be more fully discerned when we properly study the details. :) 

Very astute observation.  But isn't the arrangement of colors entirely a mortal contrivance?  What if you took the box and laid it on a different side?

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Very astute observation.  But isn't the arrangement of colors entirely a mortal contrivance?  What if you took the box and laid it on a different side?

It is not only a mortal contrivance, but it is bounded by the 3-dimensional limits of mortality. Imagine what it would look like with a 4th and fifth...dimensions?

I mention this because when we mortals think of 3 degrees of heavenly glory and/or 3 degrees of Celestial glory, our minds tend to conceptualize this in 3-dimensional terms, when it may be otherwise--which adds multiple new meanings to how 1 heaven or kingdom can be 3. :eek:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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38 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Very astute observation.  But isn't the arrangement of colors entirely a mortal contrivance?  What if you took the box and laid it on a different side?

This is exactly what God has warned us will happen

Isaiah 13:13  Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. This will be a particularly unfortunate day when this happens, as indicated by the double 13 scriptural reference. 
 

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

This is what I was getting at before dealing with the very core principles of Christ's gospel as found in the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon. One must understand the lay out of the principles of the gospel as found in the Book of Mormon, otherwise contradictions and paradoxes arise. 

Whether we like to admit or not, the Book of Mormon which contains Christ's gospel, very much is a Protestant heaven or hell dichotomy. Look at these verses-

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
            26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
            27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)

This is a paraphrase of the very Lord speaking. We either become righteous and born again becoming his sons and daughters or we are cast off. The casting off is in reference to the great last day of judgment which is pronounced upon the devil and his angels. 

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
            27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:26-28)

The Book of Mormon isn't a Protestant heaven (where God dwells)/hell dichotomy. There really isn't anything to admit, or reject. The Book of Mormon teaches of paradise and prison, and many other things.

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5 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Where's the ice cream here? You're overlooking the really important stuff. 

Overlooked?  HAH!  Shows how 3-dimensional you've become.

That's 5-dimensional ice cream he's floating in. Duh-uh.

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To add yet one more dimension (pun intended) to this binary vs tripartite heaven and hell debate, consider the reality that one man's heaven is another man's hell.

For example, I have a germaphobe friend for whom elaborate, repetitive, and time consuming and costly hygienic  strategies are heavenly (anxiety reducing), whereas to my hyper-pragmatic mind it is tortuous hell (anxiety producing).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

The Book of Mormon isn't a Protestant heaven (where God dwells)/hell dichotomy. There really isn't anything to admit, or reject. The Book of Mormon teaches of paradise and prison, and many other things.

But it is. The BoM teaches one can either repent and be baptized/born again into the everlasting kingdom of God or be cast into the eternal hell.

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1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Won't that cause 5-dimensional obesity? If so, that sounds like hell to me rather than heaven. ;)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

With celestial bodies, it doesn't matter.  Haven't you seen "Defending Your Life"?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101698/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Edited by Carborendum

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On 12/18/2018 at 8:53 AM, Anddenex said:

Exaltation I do not believe is broad. I believe exaltation is pretty clear. It is to become one with the Father and to receive all the Father hath through His Son. This can not be accomplished without a spouse. Neither is man without the woman, nor woman without the man. Truly overcoming second death.

Hello Anddenex,

I didn't know marriage was a requirement for godhood. Is the Holy Spirit (God) married too?  Was
Jesus (God) married before he was born to Mary?

Thank you,

Gale

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10 hours ago, GaleG said:

Hello Anddenex,

I didn't know marriage was a requirement for godhood. Is the Holy Spirit (God) married too?  Was
Jesus (God) married before he was born to Mary?

Thank you,

Gale

I am not sure the purpose of your question? The response I provided was pertaining to the afterlife (Exaltation - a state received after mortal life), not our pre-mortal life.

We do not know much about the Holy Spirit, save that he is part of the Godhead. We know Christ was not married before this mortal life. We know from His words the following:

Quote

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. (emphasis mine)

There is a lot that has not been revealed pertaining to the pre-mortal life. We can speculate with regards to position within the Godhead, similar to any presidency, and it will be just that -- speculation.

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22 hours ago, GaleG said:

Hello Anddenex,

I didn't know marriage was a requirement for godhood. Is the Holy Spirit (God) married too?  Was
Jesus (God) married before he was born to Mary?

Thank you,

Gale

This is exactly the reason why I dislike the use of the term "godhood" when we describe exaltation.  It has too much baggage from common English.  "Exaltation" is the most appropriate gospel term for what we are talking about.

"God" can be a title or a position.  "Exaltation" is a state of being.  But the most common way people understand exaltation is to say "we will be gods," meaning that we will be exalted.  I know of no scriptural evidence that we will attain the "position" of "a god."  But we CAN achieve exaltation.  Thus as I've indicated, linguistic problems are associated with the usage of the term "god" or "godhood."

In the framework of linear time that we mortals understand, Jesus was not "exalted" prior to his mortal ministry.  We know that he said

Quote

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 -- Matt 5:48

This was during his mortal ministry.  But after he performed the Atonement, and he was resurrected and exalted, he came to the Nephites and said something slightly different.

Quote

Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

  -- 3 Ne 12:48

He had to "become" perfect (read: exalted).  He wishes for all of us to do so as well by following the same path that he has trod.

We really don't know about the Holy Ghost.  There's simply not much that has been revealed about him.

As far as the Father being married, the common belief is yes.  But again, there really isn't much revealed about our Heavenly Mother.

Edited by Carborendum

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I know of no scriptural evidence that we will attain the "position" of "a god." 

How about "gods"?

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (D&C 132:20)

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7 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

"They shall be gods" doesn't mean they, each individually, shall be "a god" in your mind?

Because it's you, I'll repeat myself.

I made a distinction between the "status" or "state of being" vs. "position" or "title".  If you could spend just a moment or two to consider the semantic difference I was trying to convey, I'd appreciate it.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Because it's you, I'll repeat myself.

I made a distinction between the "status" or "state of being" vs. "position" or "title".  If you could spend just a moment or two to consider the semantic difference I was trying to convey, I'd appreciate it.

I see that. Seems abitrary to me. I know you made the distinction. I just don't know that it's supportable. 

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I agree with Carb. To think of "Godhood" as if it is a called ecclesiastical position like stake president or Sunday School teacher is not doctrinally supportable.

Furthermore, it opens us to ridicule. I generally don't much care about the world's ridicule, but when we invite it with foolishness (nota bene: any sentence beginning with "When I'm a God" or "When I have my own planet" is foolish and thus eminently mock-worthy), then there is nothing noble about being ridiculed. In such cases, we earn it.

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41 minutes ago, Vort said:

I agree with Carb. To think of "Godhood" as if it is a called ecclesiastical position like stake president or Sunday School teacher is not doctrinally supportable.

Furthermore, it opens us to ridicule. I generally don't much care about the world's ridicule, but when we invite it with foolishness (nota bene: any sentence beginning with "When I'm a God" or "When I have my own planet" is foolish and thus eminently mock-worthy), then there is nothing noble about being ridiculed. In such cases, we earn it.

It strikes me as I consider that we don't know a lot about the nature of what it means to be "a god" -- primarily in that we know that Jesus was God, the Holy Ghost is God, and yet neither of them have/had some of the characteristics of the Father -- a body, a wife, etc. Therefore, it seems plain, that godhood itself does not require these things. In that regard I agree, certainly, that confusing exaltation and godhood can be problematic.

It might actually be interesting to view these things in the other term we commonly use for God -- Heavenly Father.

Now we begin to see where marriage becomes a requirement.

Can there be a "god" without the Father/Mother dynamic? Clearly yes. Can there be a Heavenly Father without it? Clearly not.

My questioning @Carborendum's ideas isn't in the point he was making, which I agree with, but in the distinction that -- "God" can be a title or a position. Well...maybe. That's one way to say it. I'm not sure it's accurate. I mean semantically we can use it that way. But we could use "exalted" semantically different as well. Even then -- no problem with the idea of viewing The Father as both God and "exalted", and the Savior and the Holy Ghost as God but not exalted. I just don't see how his statement -- I know of no scriptural evidence that we will attain the "position" of "a god." -- fits into that or why or how we should view our potential exaltation as distinctly a title but not a position?

I don't particularly understand how it's problematic or mock-worthy to view "Godhood" as an ecclesiastical position either. It may not be doctinally supportable...but it's not specifically doctrinally unsupportable either, by which I mean to say I'm not sure one could prove it wrong. I'm not sure it's a common way to look at it though -- so if it is mock-worthy I expect it's not because the lay Latter-day Saint likely views it that way.

But it being a "position" doesn't have to mean the same thing as being a calling. And it works just fine, English-wise, to think of godhood as a position in the same manner it works to think of a king as both a title and a position. A king is not typically called -- they inherit. And yet they still hold the position of king as well as the title of king as well as the state of king. From a very realistic point of view, I believe, the word god is synonymous with king. The King of Kings, one might say. ;) 

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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Hmm

Quote

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?*
 

Read the Book of Abraham.

We are of a race and thus are the same race as that of our Father.

On this earth you are called a Human Being, and as such, your children are also Human Beings.

As your children grow they develop in capacity and ability. 

The same applies to us and our heavenly parents and race.

We helped to create this world, and as such, even we had much more authority and power than we recall (having passed through the veil).

Is a Father a position?  A title? or more?

In the same way, us becoming as our Father in Heaven, if we inherit all that he has and become joint-heirs with Christ, we too may obtain the same.

Quote

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.**

*From John 10

**From Romans

Edited by JohnsonJones

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18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If you could spend just a moment or two to consider the semantic difference I was trying to convey, I'd appreciate it.

16 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I know you made the distinction. I just don't know that it's supportable. 

I guess you won't spend much effort on trying to understand.  So, I will cease trying.

Or, in your words,"If you can't see the difference, I can't help you."

 

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19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I guess you won't spend much effort on trying to understand. 

How is it that my questions and explanations in the posts to you and Vort are not spending effort?

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, I will cease trying.

Wimp. ;)

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Or, in your words

My words? Where?

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"If you can't see the difference, I can't help you."

Same to you?

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