Exaltation and Eternal Life

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I will take note thats your way of saying Im correct. Thanks.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I will take note thats your way of saying Im correct. Thanks.

Cool. As you convince more and more people to disregard your views you can rest happily and content that it's all been proof that you're right. Good plan. Very wisdomous.

👍

[Vort]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

wisdomous

WotD!

[Jersey Boy]

18 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Second death is separation from the Father, which is spiritual death. Will those in the Terrestrial kingdom or Telestial kingdom enjoy the presence of the Father? No -- thus second death, or spiritual death.

Unless you can provide an different definition of second death or spiritual death that has been given by the prophets, your statement is incorrect.

I already did provided a different definition for you, one that came directly from the scriptures. But I can only suppose that you didn’t read the verses I provided carefully enough so as to become more informed on the subject. So i’ll now post two of the verses again in the hope you’ll carefully read and ponder them and thereby become enabled to understand the plain meaning of these inspired passages of scripture from the Prophet Joseph Smith:

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the ONLY ones on WHOM the SECOND DEATH shall have ANY power;  (D&C 76)

Perhaps if you look up the meaning of the words ONLY and ANY you’ll be better able to properly understand verse 37.

 

 

[Anddenex]

Just now, Jersey Boy said:

I already did provided a different definition for you, one that came directly from the scriptures. But I can only suppose that you didn’t read the verses I provided carefully enough so as to become more informed on the subject. So i’ll now post two of the verses again in the hope you’ll carefully read and ponder them and thereby become enabled to understand the plain meaning of these inspired passages of scripture from the Prophet Joseph Smith:

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the ONLY ones on WHOM the SECOND DEATH shall have ANY power;  (D&C 76)

Perhaps if you look up the meaning of the words ONLY and ANY you’ll be better able to properly understand verse 37.

 

 

Perhaps if you look at other definitions you might understand a little more, "Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience. Spiritual death can be overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to His gospel."

Second death is spiritual death, who are separated from God? Hmm....

[Jersey Boy]

19 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

One of Rob's problems is that he believes every time a word or phrase is used anywhere in scripture that it must mean exactly the same thing. I believe you are falling into that same trap here a bit. The scriptures talk of spiritual death in a few different ways. One of them is separation from God. In that regards, those in the Telestial Kingdom certainly are spiritually "dead". D&C 76:112: "...where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Review these scriptures: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/death-spiritual-second?lang=eng

...and see if you come away still believing that every time the scriptures speak of spiritual death it is speaking only of the sons of perdition?

I think you may have declared @Anddenex "wrong" unfairly.

My response wasn’t addressing the term “spiritual death,” rather, I was speaking specifically about the term “second death.” How do you interpret D&C 76 verse 37?

[askandanswer]

Doctrine and Covenants 132:

16  Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17  For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
 

I haven't read the whole thread but these verses suggest to me that

Those who don't marry but who are otherwise worthy become angels

As angels, they dwell in heaven, which I understand is where God also lives

They are saved, they live in the presence of God, or at least in the same place where God lives, but they are not exhalted

[Jersey Boy]

22 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Perhaps if you look at other definitions you might understand a little more, "Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience. Spiritual death can be overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to His gospel."

Second death is spiritual death, who are separated from God? Hmm....

Spiritual death and the second death are, simultaneously, two related but significantly different things. The following is one of the Book of Mormon’s explanations as to what is meant by the term second death. After reading Alma’s explanation of the second death, ask yourself if it sounds like Alma is accurately describing the saved condition of the inhabitants of the post-resurrection Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms of glory?

16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.

17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.

18 Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been noredemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God’s justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption. (Alma 12)

Edited December 20, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[The Folk Prophet]

32 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

My response wasn’t addressing the term “spiritual death,” rather, I was speaking specifically about the term “second death.” How do you interpret D&C 76 verse 37?

I don't consider semantic debate worth it. We know what's meant. Holding rigidly to semantics after meaning has been explained is useless.

Yes. "The Second Death" -- understood as those who are cast into out darkness only applies to those cast into outer darkness. The words "the" and "second" and "death" all have individual meaning, however, and specifically in the gospel the separation from God at judgment day may well be understood to be a second spiritual death. If one uses the term second death to mean such I see no problem with it whatsoever.

Using one meaning and applying it to another's different usage and then claiming the win is less than honest or fair I think. (I'm not accusing you of doing so by saying this. Just pointing out that it is often done.)

[The Folk Prophet]

35 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

As angels, they dwell in heaven

Who says angels have to dwell in "heaven"? (Understanding "heaven" as you're using it to mean the Celestial Kingdom).

35 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

They are saved

They have a saved condition. They are not fully saved. The same applies to Telestial beings. All kingdoms of glory are saved from something. (Specifically from outer darkness). The term "saved" doesn't de facto mean they are living with God. There is only one state which is fully saved from all damnation. That is exaltation.

Edited December 20, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Jersey Boy]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't consider semantic debate worth it. We know what's meant. Holding rigidly to semantics after meaning has been explained is useless.

Yes. "The Second Death" -- understood as those who are cast into out darkness only applies to those cast into outer darkness. The words "the" and "second" and "death" all have individual meaning, however, and specifically in the gospel the separation from God at judgment day may well be understood to be a second spiritual death. If one uses the term second death to mean such I see no problem with it whatsoever.

Using one meaning and applying it to another's different usage and then claiming the win is less than honest or fair I think. (I'm not accusing you of doing so by saying this. Just pointing out that it is often done.)

It may well be understood to be the meaning of the expression in your own mind, but it’s not what the term means in the scriptures. The scriptures clearly teach that the only ones who experience the second death are the sons of perdition. Look it up and see for yourself. Everyone else is forgiven and made spiritually alive, to one degree or another. It’s an insult to the atoning power of Christ’s sacrifice to say that any of those who are redeemed thereby are cut off from all things pertaining to righteousness and enslaved by the devil, “as if there is no redemption made.” The proper term that should be used is degrees of glory, not degrees of spiritual death. 

16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.

17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.

18 Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been noredemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God’s justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption. (Alma 12)

[Rob Osborn]

The "second death" is only mentioned a handful of times in scripture. In every instance it is in reference to the lake of fire and brimstone where the devil and his angels are cast into after the millennium. So, unless one can prove the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are in the lake of fire and brimstone with the devil and his angels it's a purely bunk and false doctrine to claim those kingdom inhabitants suffer the second death!

Edited December 20, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

58 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

It may well be understood to be the meaning of the expression in your own mind, but it’s not what the term means in the scriptures

It seems to just mean that in Rev 21:

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Unless you agree with the Rob O heaven/hell dynamic I think it's pretty plain that those who don't overcome all things shall have part in the second death.

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

Look it up and see for yourself.

Done. I have concluded you are mistaken.

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

Everyone else is forgiven and made spiritually alive, to one degree or another.

True. And all but those who are exalted are spiritually dead, to one degree or another.

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

It’s an insult to the atoning power of Christ’s sacrifice 

Yeah, that Boyd K. Packer, for example. So insulting to Christ's atonement.

"If we remain separated from him and can’t get back to his presence, then it would be as though we were spiritually dead. And that would not be good. This separation is like a second death, a spiritual death."

"The Atonement was absolutely essential for men to cleanse themselves from sin and overcome the second death, which is the spiritual death, which is separation from our Father in Heaven"

"He also makes possible redemption from the second death, which is the spiritual death, which is separation from the presence of our Heavenly Father. This redemption can come only to those who are clean, for no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God."

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Also, compare with this verse-

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev. 3:5)

Now compare with-

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
            14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
            15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 30:13-15)

It all comes full circle back to the fact that the second death is hell where the devil and his angels are. One must "overcometh" to gain salvation which is being saved from hell.

[Jersey Boy]

9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It seems to just mean that in Rev 21:

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Unless you agree with the Rob O heaven/hell dynamic I think it's pretty plain that those who don't overcome all things shall have part in the second death.

Done. I have concluded you are mistaken.

True. And all but those who are exalted are spiritually dead, to one degree or another.

Yeah, that Boyd K. Packer, for example. So insulting to Christ's atonement.

"If we remain separated from him and can’t get back to his presence, then it would be as though we were spiritually dead. And that would not be good. This separation is like a second death, a spiritual death."

"The Atonement was absolutely essential for men to cleanse themselves from sin and overcome the second death, which is the spiritual death, which is separation from our Father in Heaven"

"He also makes possible redemption from the second death, which is the spiritual death, which is separation from the presence of our Heavenly Father. This redemption can come only to those who are clean, for no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God."

Elder Packer said it is like a second death, not that it is the second death. I presented you with an actual verse from the Standard Works (D&C 76:37) that plainly and unambiguously states only the sons of perdition, those who are totally enslaved by Satan and for that reason will spend all eternity with him in hell, will suffer the second death. But it appears because you have a pet idea you will simply ignore and/or discount the plain meaning of D&C 76:37 and the other verses of scripture that clearly and forthrightly indicate the fate of the second death is reserved only for those who have been taken fully captive by the devil and will therefore spend all eternity with him in outer darkness, without an iota of spiritual glory.

The verse in the Book of Revelation cannot be speaking of those who inherit the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms of glory because, in the end, at the time of the final judgement, D&C 76 says they will no longer be numbered among the unbelieving because they will be redeemed through the atonement of the Lord and confess to God the Father that Christ is the Savior..

36 These (the sons of perdition) are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed (forgiven) in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— (D&C 76)

and...

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (D&C 76)

In the LDS Bible, D&C 76: 110 is crossed referenced to the following verses: 

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

The Book of Revelation reference cannot be speaking of the inheritors of the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms because at the time of the final judgement they will not be numbered among the unbelieving and unforgiven.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[The Folk Prophet]

Thanks for sharing your view.

[Rob Osborn]

The way I've always looked at it is everyone at judgment will enter either into "eternal spiritual life" or "eternal spiritual death". This in reference to -

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
            29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom. (2Nephi 2:28-29)

This "eternal death" is the second death. It's an eternal spiritual death.

[askandanswer]

17 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Who says angels have to dwell in "heaven"? (Understanding "heaven" as you're using it to mean the Celestial Kingdom).

They have a saved condition. They are not fully saved. The same applies to Telestial beings. All kingdoms of glory are saved from something. (Specifically from outer darkness). The term "saved" doesn't de facto mean they are living with God. There is only one state which is fully saved from all damnation. That is exaltation.

I'm not sure what Joseph Smith was intending to mean or referring to but what the scripture says is they "are appointed angels in heaven."

I agree with you about the distinction between being saved and exhaltation. D&C 132 verse 17 makes this clear by specifying that angels are saved but not exalted. THe reason why I underlined one of these phrases and bolded the other is this is the first time I have seen any reference to non-exalted beings being able to dwell in the presence of God.

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

non-exalted beings being able to dwell in the presence of God.

We all dwelt with God as non-exalted beings in the pre-earth life.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

We all dwelt with God as non-exalted beings in the pre-earth life.

The big difference is if we are clean or unclean. The third host were removed from heaven because they became unclean. We can return to our HF if we become cleansed from our sins. Section 76 tells us that he cleanses all from sin except for the sons of perdition.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The big difference is if we are clean or unclean. The third host were removed from heaven because they became unclean. We can return to our HF if we become cleansed from our sins. Section 76 tells us that he cleanses all from sin except for the sons of perdition.

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So freaking rude. Forget it!

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Forget it!

PLEASE DO!!

[Rob Osborn]

Some people have no manners. 

[Vort]

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

33 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

We all dwelt with God as non-exalted beings in the pre-earth life.

The big difference is if we are clean or unclean. The third host were removed from heaven because they became unclean. We can return to our HF if we become cleansed from our sins. Section 76 tells us that he cleanses all from sin except for the sons of perdition.

The big difference is that we will be resurrected, with bodies of flesh and bone. Paul spoke of different types of bodies; Joseph Smith's revelations extended this metaphor to a very concrete physical reality. We are resurrected with a physical body capable of enduring and prospering in a celestial glory OR a terrestrial glory OR a telestial glory (OR, for those who are lost, no glory).

Yes, all are cleansed from sin, except for those who remain filthy still. All will, indeed must, confess Jesus as the Christ to receive his cleansing blood. Thus they are saved. Though we think of baptism as an ordinance for celestial glory, my understanding is that baptism is a minimal prerequisite for any glory, because all glories are of the kingdom of God, and baptism is the gateway. But salvation in a kingdom of glory is not the same as exaltation in the celestial kingdom. Only some of the saved will be worthy of "a more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." There can be no reasonable doubt that this, the difference between salvation and exaltation, is the firmly established doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.