Stacey Harkey comes out


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6 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Stacey Harkey comes out

Really? no one can be suprised by this can they? Somehow this is news?

I never saw the show he was on, but I think it's news whenever a prominent LDS person announces their sexuality because of the churches stance on homosexuality. Should it be news? Of course not. But it is. 

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Maybe my "gaydar" doesn't work. What were the tells? That he's funny? Well-spoken? Kind of chunky?

I just found out yesterday that my manager is homosexual*. I had kind of thought he was, but didn't know for sure until yesterday. I'm sure it would be obvious to some, but not to me. On the other hand, I had a manager fifteen or so years ago that I was just 99.999% sure was gay. It was just so obvious. But guess what? Not gay.

"Gaydar", like "Jewdar", may be a real thing, but I'm not convinced. Some homosexuals are over-the-top in their mannerisms, but I doubt that anyone can reliably distinguish between homosexuals and heterosexuals through casual conversation and public observation. Maybe 60% or even 70% correct, but that's not what I consider reliable.

*Apropos of nothing, my manager is probably the kindest manager I have ever had. I told him exactly that in this morning's one-on-one, because I thought he deserved the feedback. He's also clever and quite funny.

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56 minutes ago, Vort said:

Maybe my "gaydar" doesn't work.

Not everyone has "gaydar".  I have a brother who is gay who kept it in the closet for a long time.  So, I developed it while my family were still in the "I wonder" phase.  I picked up on some minutiae that my family did not because I like spending time observing people.  Well, he was on of my test subjects.

I also grew up with several gay guys in school at different times.  And as a control group, I grew up with several others who seemed to have tells, but turned out to NOT be gay.

56 minutes ago, Vort said:

What were the tells?

You have to have watched a lot of episodes to pick up on it because it wasn't just one tell.  But when you put a lot of them together, at some point the balance tips.

1. The few times he actually kissed Mallory, you could see a really strong awkwardness from him more than Mallory.  Not conclusive.  But it put my gaydar up to look for more tells.
2. He wrote and starred in a skit where he played a woman wearing a dress and formal hat.  Really raised my eyebrows as well as my gaydar.  Yes, acting.  But it raised my eyebrows.
3. His gait, posturing, and gestures continued to lean toward the effeminate side far too often.
4. His voice was highly feminine.  It's a "thing" because I teach voice.  I pay attention to voices and notice nuances that others miss.
5. Every once in a while a "gay" not-quite-lisp came out that he made efforts to hold back.
6. Not with every gay man, but it is in the 60% to 70% range, there are certain facial features that are indicative of gays.  It has to do with the expressions made by gay men vs. straight men.  Different muscles tend to be exercised.  I don't know how developed that science is.  But I looked into it a while back.  And he had enough of them.

Edited by Guest
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5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I picked up on some minutiae that my family did not because I like spending time observing people.

I've had people tell me I must be gay/straight because:

  • I'm "anti" gay
  • I love musical theater
  • I love Metallica
  • I ride big beefy motorcycles that make tons of noise
  • I ballroom dance
  • I dress nice (this not so much any more)

Every one of those holds about as much value to the assessment as your list.

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Guest Godless
4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Wait, so I am the one who points out that Stacey is a Child of God.  And that will cause people to have suicidal thoughts? 

You probably weren't thinking along those lines, but that is exactly what you said.  Do you want to modify that a bit or at least explain what you meant by "responses like this"?

You're right, I did a poor job addressing your statement. Sorry about that.

In a perfect world, you're right, sexual orientation would be a simple descriptor, like height, weight, and shoe size. It shouldn't define who a person is, but it turns out that the world isn't perfect. People still make a fuss about it, particularly in places like Utah, I'd imagine. The cultural stigma is still there to some degree. There are no such stigmas attached to height, hair color, etc. THAT'S why many LGBT people are so eager to have that as a defining trait of their identity, because it's the one part of their identity that many people, sometimes including loved ones, are unlikely to understand or accept. Short people don't live in fear of being disowned and labeled as sinners for being short.

To me, it's telling that the first reaction that some people are having to this is to question his virtue. I have no idea if Stacey intends to remain celebate for the rest of his life like the Church will expect. Frankly, that's none of my business. I applaud him for being a voice of hope and comfort for those who are still living in fear of their sexuality being revealed. It's possible that his path will lead him away from the church, as has been the case with many other LGBT members. I sincerely hope not. He strikes me as someone who loves God and the Church, and I'd hate to see him lose that. As @unixknight pointed out, that's a very difficult path for someone to take. I imagine it's even harder when people expect you to fail by default.

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24 minutes ago, Godless said:

You're right, I did a poor job addressing your statement. Sorry about that.

No problem.  I just noticed a disconnect that I was trying to reconcile.

24 minutes ago, Godless said:

In a perfect world, you're right, sexual orientation would be a simple descriptor, like height, weight, and shoe size. It shouldn't define who a person is, but it turns out that the world isn't perfect. People still make a fuss about it, particularly in places like Utah, I'd imagine. The cultural stigma is still there to some degree. There are no such stigmas attached to height, hair color, etc. THAT'S why many LGBT people are so eager to have that as a defining trait of their identity, because it's the one part of their identity that many people, sometimes including loved ones, are unlikely to understand or accept. Short people don't live in fear of being disowned and labeled as sinners for being short.

To me, it's telling that the first reaction that some people are having to this is to question his virtue. I have no idea if Stacey intends to remain celebate for the rest of his life like the Church will expect. Frankly, that's none of my business. I applaud him for being a voice of hope and comfort for those who are still living in fear of their sexuality being revealed. It's possible that his path will lead him away from the church, as has been the case with many other LGBT members. I sincerely hope not. He strikes me as someone who loves God and the Church, and I'd hate to see him lose that. As @unixknight pointed out, that's a very difficult path for someone to take. I imagine it's even harder when people expect you to fail by default.

Well, if we go back to my comment, I believe the problem on both sides can be solved by my comment.

People who are "fusspots" as you allude to would do better to simply focus on the fact that the person who just came out is a child of God -- regardless of temptation or weakness.

Those who experience same sex attraction would do well to remember they are children of God regardless of the personal challenges they have in their lives.

Those who stand out to become "a voice of hope and comfort" would better provide hope and be more likely to stay true to the gospel if they didn't focus on the idea that "Being gay is who I am."  Notice the difference:

  • Being gay is who I am.  (implied: and that's ok).  But homosexual acts are sins in the eyes of God.
  • As a child of God I seek Him out, regardless of what roadblocks are in my path.  And with His help, I'll overcome them all.

Which do you think will encourage individuals towards a better life?  I believe the reason that religious gay teens are suicidal is that they're told these competing ideologies.  Instead of determining which is right, they try to walk a tightrope of reconciling the two together.  And they can't.

They're also told that homosexuality is a special case.  It's something you can't change.  BULL! Any desire can be changed.  Some things take more effort than others.  But every desire can be altered.  You could even get me to stop liking kim chee. ;) 

Which of the following gives people more hope?

  • You can't change these sinful desires.  YOU'LL ALWAYS BE THIS WAY.
  • With the Lord's help, ANY desire can be changed.  And the power of the Atonement is available to help you.
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29 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I believe the reason that religious gay teens are suicidal is that they're told these competing ideologies.

FWIW, I not entirely convinced of this.

29 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Instead of determining which is right, they try to walk a tightrope of reconciling the two together.  And they can't.

Not that I disbelieve this part or the ideas in your post. I'm just unconvinced this leads to being suicidal.

I disbelieve, as a general rule, that suicidal is a product of circumstance so much as it is a product of mental health. And as much as I understand that mental health could be compromised by the circumstance you mention above, in and of itself I suspect that in most cases it is not circumstance that is the primary agent in suicidal thoughts, though it may be the catalyst in cases.

In point of fact, the entire, "the church's lack of acceptance is causing suicide" idea is fundamentally flawed when the church and it's members have consistently become more and more accepting of homosexuality and yet the trauma and suicide of those so afflicted continues to increase.

And it is well to also note that suicide rates are up across the board, not just in Utah, not just in the church, not just for homosexuals.

Something else is going on here besides lack of acceptance.

On a side note: What's in the water in Carbon County?

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/utah-suicide

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7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

If you mean the new generation now thinks having homosexual sex and even marriage is not only normal but moral, then yes.  You are right.  Hooray to the LGBT+++ movement who has now successfully achieved such status.

Thanks for the recognition.

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2 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Sometimes the truth is hard to hear. To paraphrase BY, "When somebody criticizes me the first thing I do is look in the mirror."

He says as he defiantly refuses to look in the mirror after being criticized for being inflammatory and divisive.

Edit: Ah...man. @Vort beat me to it.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Just now, Vort said:

Why don't you take Brother Brigham's advice to heart?

Inform me what is wrong with two consenting adults having sexual relations without saying that it's merely sin. I want a logical argument. Something I've seen nobody do.

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1 minute ago, Tyme said:

Inform me what is wrong with two consenting adults having sexual relations without saying that it's merely sin. I want a logical argument. Something I've seen nobody do.

First tell me: Why don't you take Brother Brigham's advice to heart?

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1 minute ago, Tyme said:

Inform me what is wrong with two consenting adults having sexual relations without saying that it's merely sin. I want a logical argument. Something I've seen nobody do.

You are on a religious based forum... It being a SIN is all we need.  You might want to tell God to sit down and shut up be we do not.

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Just now, Tyme said:

If you're on a mission to prove that consenting relations between two adults is wrong use a logical argument. You're not going to persuade people by simply saying it's a sin.

Why don't you take Brother Brigham's advice to heart?

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2 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Inform me what is wrong with two consenting adults having sexual relations without saying that it's merely sin. I want a logical argument. Something I've seen nobody do.

So, you're saying "wrong" MUST have logic to it?  It isn't enough that God has condemned it?

Q: What's wrong with murder?  
A: Well, you're ending a life.
Q: So, what's wrong with that?  I really didn't like the guy.
A: Life is precious!
Q: Prove it!

You could say this about anything.  And you simply won't be able to come to right and wrong unless you trace it back to "God said so."

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1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

You are on a religious based forum... It being a SIN is all we need.  You might want to tell God to sit down and shut up be we do not.

Answer this 8 year old question: Why would god create people who are gay if it's something the majority of people are going to act on? That doesn't sound like a loving god or loving leaders to parrot the thought. It's one reason I believe gay marriage will be solemnized in the Temple once the older generation follows the spirit or dies off.

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

So, you're saying "wrong" MUST have logic to it?  It isn't enough that God has condemned it?

Q: What's wrong with murder?  
A: Well, you're ending a life.
Q: So, what's wrong with that?  I really didn't like the guy.
A: Life is precious!
Q: Prove it!

You could say this about anything.  And you simply won't be able to come to right and wrong unless you trace it back to "God said so."

Murder is wrong just like pedophilia because a person is harming another person. Come up with something better then we will talk.

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Just now, Tyme said:

Inform me what is wrong with two consenting adults having sexual relations without saying that it's merely sin. I want a logical argument. Something I've seen nobody do.

Um. Sin = wrong and wrong = sin. You cannot separate the two.

You're basically saying, "Tell me what's sinful about [blah blah] without saying it's sinful" or, "Tell me what's wrong about [blah blah] without saying it's wrong".

Maybe you mean to say, "Tell me WHY it's wrong."

Anyhow, you and your logic don't get to determine what only God has the right to determine. So...you know...go jump.

But for anyone interested: It is the antithesis of the eternal family -- the union whereby we gain exaltation, therefore choosing to embrace said action/lifestyle without repentance leads to spiritual death, as in no exaltation, which pretty much defines right and wrong.

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