We Are Responsible For Our Own Learning

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Do you want to discuss or not?

What, exactly, do you believe will be gained by further discussion with me on the matter? That you'll convince me to view everyone else's spirituality as derisively as you do? No thanks.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

And how does one propose to know how its possible that someone who lacks knowledge of exaltation will be exalted?

Obedience.

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Will they enter their exaltation as children?

Please don't hijack my thread.

[wenglund]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Will they enter their exaltation as children?

I believe that our bodies will all be resurrected at the age at which they died, and will then grow to  a perfect age. So, in that respect, my answer is yes.

And, given that the resurrection is, itself ,a  rebirth (i.e. born again),  then in that sense those resurrected unto exaltation may be considered as babes when first resurrected.

More generally speaking, I also believe that, with the exception of Christ, all who are exalted (i.e. resurrected to Celestial glory) will be lacking in at least some understanding of exaltation, and won't achieve omniscience until much later in eternal progression--wherein they will continue to be responsible .for their own learning.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by wenglund
To make my answer applicable to the thread

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, wenglund said:

I believe that our bodies will all be resurrected at the age at which they died, and will then grow to  a perfect age. So, in that respect, my answer is yes.

Please feel free to open a different thread on this subject and I'll then ask my very obvious question, which is, what, exactly, is the "perfect age"?

[wenglund]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Please feel free to open a different thread on this subject and I'll then ask my very obvious question, which is, what, exactly, is the "perfect age"?

I edited my post so as to answer Rob's tangential question in a way applicable to the thread (tying it into "born Again," which you previously approved, and also the notion that we are responsible for our learning). Beyond that, I have no motivation to say more--particularly since your follow-up question exceeds  the upper limits of my current understanding.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, wenglund said:

and also the notion that we are responsible for our learning

Forgive me for making a bit of fun here:

I'm not sure adding "...we will continue to be responsible for our own learning" to the end of any given sentence qualifies as "applicable to the thread."

Examples:

"I'd like to buy a 1911 handgun, whereupon I will continue to be responsible for my own learning."

"Pizza Hut is disgusting, but those who choose to eat it still continue to be responsible for their own learning."

"Don't diss the Hut man, even though you continue to be responsible for your own learning."

"Star Wars used to be great, now it suck, and yet we continue to be responsible for our own learning."

 

Okay...fun making time over. Sorry Wade.

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

48 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I believe that our bodies will all be resurrected at the age at which they died, and will then grow to  a perfect age. So, in that respect, my answer is yes.

And, given that the resurrection is, itself ,a  rebirth (i.e. born again),  then in that sense those resurrected unto exaltation may be considered as babes when first resurrected.

More generally speaking, I also believe that, with the exception of Christ, all who are exalted (i.e. resurrected to Celestial glory) will be lacking in at least some understanding of exaltation, and won't achieve omniscience until much later in eternal progression--wherein they will continue to be responsible .for their own learning.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I believe everyone is responsible for their own learning of which includes the necessary covenants for exaltation (exaltation is the highest glory being bound in eternal marriage in the CK). So no, it makes no logical sense that a baby is automatically exalted. They do not bypass their own learning and understanding. They too will be responsible for their own learning.

[The Folk Prophet]

Day 2:

I'm not sure I have any real insights from today's family study time, so I'm mostly summarizing. Learning stems from understanding how the Savior applied gospel principles. So as we study how the Savior taught and acted in regards to forgiveness, humility, love, etc., and as we work to do the same we learn.

Elder Bednar helps us understand that faith and the doing of the word are one and the same.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Elder Bednar helps us understand that faith and the doing of the word are one and the same.

This is the point that struck me most in a related podcast at the Interpreter Foundation: "We Are Responsible For Our Own Learning."

As I noted in the comment section:

"I was particularly impressed by the shared advise to learn not just by hearing and study (ostensive learning) but by doing (experiential learning–Alma 32; Jn 7:17; 8:31-32). One can get a sense for mountain climbing by reading and studying mountaineering. However, one can only fully know mountaineering by getting out and climbing."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, wenglund said:

This is the point that struck me most in a related podcast at the Interpreter Foundation: "We Are Responsible For Our Own Learning."

As I noted in the comment section:

"I was particularly impressed by the shared advise to learn not just by hearing and study (ostensive learning) but by doing (experiential learning–Alma 32; Jn 7:17; 8:31-32). One can get a sense for mountain climbing by reading and studying mountaineering. However, one can only fully know mountaineering by getting out and climbing."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think there's an exponential cumulative beyond-the-practical reality to the gospel when it comes to these things, however. In life you get good at something by doing it. Yes. That is true in the gospel as well. But in life you only get good at what you do. In the gospel the windows of heaven open and pour out blessings, light and knowledge, strength, wisdom, character, and etc., beyond what even the practical experience gives us.

God asks us to climb mountains to prepare us for much greater things than climbing mountains. And he knows, in climbing those mountains, that we will all fall and fail. And yet His grace is sufficient.

This is a similar idea to what we repeatedly learned in the self reliance course. Self reliance, ironically, primarily means relying upon God. Being responsible for our own learning means the same.

[Traveler]

This thread was started based on responsibility for learning.  At this point I am going to take a stand in support of learning by doing.  There are some terms that need to be defined.  One is intelligence - I propose that we define intelligence as the ability to learn.   I see that there is a problem in that many think we are in the process of learning doctrine.  I will try to explain a principle.  There is a difference or should I say paradigm shift between doctrine and truth.  I believe doctrine can be true but that truth is not just doctrine.  In mathematical terms using set theory - I will put it this way.  The set of truth contains all true doctrine and much much more.  In short the set of doctrine is a sub-set of the set of truth.

I believe the focus of teaching is slightly changing in the church from principles of doctrine to principles of doing or becoming.  Since I an a skier I will use skiing as the example of what I am getting at.  We can talk a lot and teach the doctrine of skiing.  We can discuss the purpose of our ski polls and how to un-weight and shift our weight when turning.  We can discuss the doctrine of skiing on steep sloops and groomed and un-groomed sloops.  We can discuss the doctrine of skiing on ice and deep powder.  We can become experts in doctrine - all without ever putting on a pair of skis and getting on the sloops.  Putting what doctrine we have learned into practice is a whole different kind of learning.

Using skiing again - we discover very quickly that we are constantly relearning the fundamentals in new applications.   The experts call this muscle memory.  For example we are constantly learning the principle of keeping our center of gravity directly over or above our feet.   If we have a personal trainer they may suggest that in tight turns we may be leaning too far to the inside of the turn and developing a bad habit that may work on blue sloops but will cause us to fall (and perhaps hurt ourselves) on black diamond sloops. 

Still using the skiing analogy - I believe that the Latter-day Saints are being upgraded and prepared (taught) for skiing beyond the bunny sloops to the black diamond sloops and that this is going to take a lot more than being expert in doctrine and discussing principles of truth is Sunday School and Priesthood and Relief Society.  And I also believe we are going to need to learn to ski on cold windy days when the visibility is really poor and the conditions are so bad that no one is skiing for fun - and it will not be just ourselves but we will likely be helping others who are hurt and have no way to survive without our "expert" learned and demonstrated help.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 1, 2019 by Traveler

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

God asks us to climb mountains to prepare us for much greater things than climbing mountains. And he knows, in climbing those mountains, that we will all fall and fail. And yet His grace is sufficient.

G-d asks us to keep the commandments by covenant - if we fail to keep the commandments by covenant - we have no promise.

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I believe the focus of teaching is slightly changing in the church from principles of doctrine to principles of doing or becoming.  Since I an a skier I will use skiing as the example of what I am getting at. 

I believe the point about "becoming" (like the Father and Son) is critical, particularly as it relates to learning through doing.

And, while analogies like mountain climbing and skiing bear this point out on one level, it is taken to a whole other level when analogies with a key attribute of godliness--i.e. that of "father" or "mother."  

As I well know as a single man who has yet to marry, we can read and learn endlessly about what it means to be a father and mother, but that learning doesn't make us a father or mother.  We need to do father and mother things--i.e. get married and become one (fruitful and multiply) .

Doing, then, in this sense, is absolutely necessary to becoming.

Furthermore, as married couples have children, they continue to learn what it means to be a father and mother by doing the raising of their children. And, once their children are raised and begin to have children of their own, the couple may learn anew what it means to be a father and mother in a grand sense. And on and on until they learn what it means to be a Father and Mother in a Heavenly sense, by become even as our Heavenly Father and Mother.

Doing, then, is necessary to becoming, and becoming is necessary to learning. I love it!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 1, 2019 by wenglund
Underscore a point

[The Folk Prophet]

13 minutes ago, Traveler said:

G-d asks us to keep the commandments by covenant - if we fail to keep the commandments by covenant - we have no promise.

All of us will fail to keep the commandments.

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I believe the point about "becoming" (like the Father and Son) is critical, particularly as it relates to learning through doing.

And, while analogies like mountain climbing and skiing bear this point out on one level, it is taken to a whole other level when analogies with a key attribute of godliness--i.e. that of "father" or "mother."  

As I well know as a single man who has yet to marry, we can read and learn endlessly about what it means to be a father and mother, but that learning doesn't make us a father or mother.  We need to do father and mother things--i.e. get married and become one (fruitful and multiply) .

Doing, then, in this sense, is absolutely necessary to becoming.

Furthermore, as married couples have children, they continue to learn what it means to be a father and mother by doing the raising of their children. And, once their children are raised and begin to have children of their own, the couple may learn anew what it means to be a father and mother in a grand sense. And on and on until they learn what it means to be a Father and Mother in a Heavenly sense, by become even as our Heavenly Father and Mother.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Agree - it is not a pass or fail.  The process of testing and learning is not an pass and move on process but rather a learn (study) - apply  learn and make adjustments - apply again and again and again.   

One thing I learned from my father (who was an artist) was that he never completed a painting.  There was always something he felt needed to be improved or done before it was truly ready.  As a parent he never told me I had completed something well enough - he always said that I could have done better.  My wife was raised differently - she was always told by her parents that she had done wonderfully - even if she hadn't.  I do believe there are times to give encouragement - but I believe in there is value in being encouraged to do better.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

All of us will fail to keep the commandments.

I honestly think that if you believe this - that you do not understand covenants or keeping the commandments.  One does not repent because they fail - they fail because they do not repent.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I believe the point about "becoming" (like the Father and Son) is critical, particularly as it relates to learning through doing.

And, while analogies like mountain climbing and skiing bear this point out on one level, it is taken to a whole other level when analogies with a key attribute of godliness--i.e. that of "father" or "mother."  

As I well know as a single man who has yet to marry, we can read and learn endlessly about what it means to be a father and mother, but that learning doesn't make us a father or mother.  We need to do father and mother things--i.e. get married and become one (fruitful and multiply) .

Doing, then, in this sense, is absolutely necessary to becoming.

Furthermore, as married couples have children, they continue to learn what it means to be a father and mother by doing the raising of their children. And, once their children are raised and begin to have children of their own, the couple may learn anew what it means to be a father and mother in a grand sense. And on and on until they learn what it means to be a Father and Mother in a Heavenly sense, by become even as our Heavenly Father and Mother.

Doing, then, is necessary to becoming, and becoming is necessary to learning. I love it!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I accept the principle of being by doing as accurate when it comes to practicing to become like God. But I don't think our weak-minded mortal understanding of it is reality. In other words, the things we think we're doing to practice being like God are probably not the actual things that are in any way like God, but it is the attending spiritual characteristics that really applies.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Traveler said:

I honestly think that if you believe this - that you do not understand covenants or keeping the commandments.

Thanks. Not condescending or rude at all.

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Thanks. Not condescending or rude at all.

Sorry - I apologize and ask for your forgiveness. 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

This thread was started based on responsibility for learning.  At this point I am going to take a stand in support of learning by doing.  There are some terms that need to be defined.  One is intelligence - I propose that we define intelligence as the ability to learn.   I see that there is a problem in that many think we are in the process of learning doctrine.  I will try to explain a principle.  There is a difference or should I say paradigm shift between doctrine and truth.  I believe doctrine can be true but that truth is not just doctrine.  In mathematical terms using set theory - I will put it this way.  The set of truth contains all true doctrine and much much more.  In short the set of doctrine is a sub-set of the set of truth.

I believe the focus of teaching is slightly changing in the church from principles of doctrine to principles of doing or becoming.  Since I an a skier I will use skiing as the example of what I am getting at.  We can talk a lot and teach the doctrine of skiing.  We can discuss the purpose of our ski polls and how to un-weight and shift our weight when turning.  We can discuss the doctrine of skiing on steep sloops and groomed and un-groomed sloops.  We can discuss the doctrine of skiing on ice and deep powder.  We can become experts in doctrine - all without ever putting on a pair of skis and getting on the sloops.  Putting what doctrine we have learned into practice is a whole different kind of learning.

Using skiing again - we discover very quickly that we are constantly relearning the fundamentals in new applications.   The experts call this muscle memory.  For example we are constantly learning the principle of keeping our center of gravity directly over or above our feet.   If we have a personal trainer they may suggest that in tight turns we may be leaning too far to the inside of the turn and developing a bad habit that may work on blue sloops but will cause us to fall (and perhaps hurt ourselves) on black diamond sloops. 

Still using the skiing analogy - I believe that the Latter-day Saints are being upgraded and prepared (taught) for skiing beyond the bunny sloops to the black diamond sloops and that this is going to take a lot more than being expert in doctrine and discussing principles of truth is Sunday School and Priesthood and Relief Society.  And I also believe we are going to need to learn to ski on cold windy days when the visibility is really poor and the conditions are so bad that no one is skiing for fun - and it will not be just ourselves but we will likely be helping others who are hurt and have no way to survive without our "expert" learned and demonstrated help.

 

The Traveler

In your analogy I think, from my own point of view, we arent really doctrine masters. We are like beginner skiers in the 19th century just starting to find out how e may be able to construct some kind of contraption to go over the snow. Perhaps we havent even invented the ski yet! This is how I see the doctrine in the church, where we are at, what we know and how it can be applied. I do however see a shift in "doing". But, I think this is the Lords way of getting us to truly learn what can be invented to go over the snow (doctrine).

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I accept the principle of being by doing as accurate when it comes to practicing to become like God. But I don't think our weak-minded mortal understanding of it is reality. In other words, the things we think we're doing to practice being like God are probably not the actual things that are in any way like God, but it is the attending spiritual characteristics that really applies.

I agree in part. Our mortal experiences, at best, are types and shadows of eternal things to come, but to me, types and shadow are, in their own right, reality.

As a young boy I didn't fully comprehend what it meant to be a grown male. But, nevertheless, I had some real comprehension of what it meant to be male.

Likewise, "know ye not that ye are gods...."

Ye are also fathers...

That having been said, I remain enthralled with my new-found  appreciation (thanks to this thread) for the necessity of doing as a means of becoming , and this as it relates to our taking responsibility for our learning. [big thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

In your analogy I think, from my own point of view, we arent really doctrine masters. We are like beginner skiers in the 19th century just starting to find out how e may be able to construct some kind of contraption to go over the snow. Perhaps we havent even invented the ski yet! This is how I see the doctrine in the church, where we are at, what we know and how it can be applied. I do however see a shift in "doing". But, I think this is the Lords way of getting us to truly learn what can be invented to go over the snow (doctrine).

For myself, and perhaps others, doctrine is a means to an end, and not the end itself. And, rationally, this means the end take precedence over the means of doctrine.

As such, this reasonably explains the shift in priorities of the Church from learning to doing, which corresponds to the shift from "knowing" to "becoming"-- as most notably explicated by Elder Oaks in his Conference talk of April, 2018. 

This doesn't mean that doctrine isn't important. It just means that it isn't as important as the end objective of the gospel plan of progression--i.e. to become as the Father and Son.

I would also submit that the shift from the Church as the center for learning to the Church as a support for learning in the home,  is intimately tied to the shifts mentioned above.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, wenglund said:

For myself, and perhaps others, doctrine is a means to an end, and not the end itself. And, rationally, this means the end take precedence over the means of doctrine.

As such, this reasonably explains the shift in priorities of the Church from learning to doing, which corresponds to the shift from "knowing" to "becoming"-- as most notably explicated by Elder Oaks in his Conference talk of April, 2018. 

This doesn't mean that doctrine isn't important. It just means that it isn't as important as the end objective of the gospel plan of progression--i.e. to become as the Father and Son.

I would also submit that the shift from the Church as the center for learning to the Church as a support for learning in the home,  is intimately tied to the shifts mentioned above.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree but I see the angle like this- "Father, they don't really understsnd the doctrine". "We will thus emphasize for them to go into the vineyard and work, that through it they may not only feed my sheep but help them realize the depth of my doctrine and help them realize some of their misunderstandings concerning my work".

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree but I see the angle like this- "Father, they don't really understsnd the doctrine". "We will thus emphasize for them to go into the vineyard and work, that through it they may not only feed my sheep but help them realize the depth of my doctrine and help them realize some of their misunderstandings concerning my work".

I suppose that may be true in your personal case (particularly given your Protestant view of the gospel), though I don't see it as applicable to the general church membership, who accept the gospel of Christ as conveyed by Chris't's chosen leaders, and are receptive to further light and knowledge.. For them, they understand well enough the doctrine, and now it is time for them to apply what they correctly understand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-