The Kingdom of Heaven

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, wenglund said:

At the risk of getting caught in an endless and counterproductive loop of days past,

Whoops.

12 minutes ago, wenglund said:

there are kingdoms on earth and kingdoms in heaven, kingdoms of mortality and kingdoms of immortality.  temporal kingdoms and eternal kingdoms.

No. Don't you know that words can only mean exactly what they mean in every instance!! EVERY -- INSTANCE!

13 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Sound familiar?

Whatchyoutalkin'bout Willis?

14 minutes ago, wenglund said:

"Are we in a mortal and temporal, earthly telestial kingdom as differentiated from an immortal and eternal, heavenly telestial kingdom?"

Or...

Are we in a kingdom that is telestial in nature and therefore may rightly be called a telestial kingdom (or even, if one so wishes to name it, "the telestial kingdom") or are we in The Telestial Kingdom?

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Punctuation matters.

Maybe you should try and get into a situation where you have the opportunity to review the text (meaning inside the temple).

Elder Holland is intelligent enough to understand what the word "represents" means and assumes that everyone else is capable of understanding the implication.

I will not discuss the temple ordinances with you any more. We have been specifically asked not to do this.

For the record, the telestial world room is common knowledge made to a person going through in a temple open house.

I didn't see where Elder Holland said "represents". He specifically said we are in the telestial kingdom. So, I am no wrong.

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed... we read in D&C 130: 2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

We do not have an Eternal Glory now per the D&C...Most understandings of the Degrees of Glory... well require some Glory.  Could we be in Telestial world without Telestial Glory right now?  Sure why not.  But to be the Telestial Kingdom we need a Telestial Glory as most people would understand and use the term. 

Does the earth not abide a telestial glory- the glory of the Holy Ghost? At the beginning of the millennium it will be quickened to a higher glory as stated in scripture. The glory of the resurrected Jesus Christ. At the end of the millennium it will be quickened to a higher glory, even the presence of the Father. At that point it will be quickened to Celestial glory.

[Rob Osborn]

24 minutes ago, wenglund said:

At the risk of getting caught in an endless and counterproductive loop of days past, there are kingdoms on earth and kingdoms in heaven, kingdoms of mortality and kingdoms of immortality.  temporal kingdoms and eternal kingdoms.

Conflating the two sets of kingdoms will cause confusion and may lead to espousal of beliefs in opposition to divinely chosen church leaders. Sound familiar?

Questions like, "Do we live in the telestial kingdom?" lend themselves to conflation, not only because they fail to differentiate between the two, but also because, to the mind of most members, the phrase "telestial kingdom" is rightly understood as referring to the heavenly and immortal and eternal kingdom rather than the esoteric  meaning of earthly and mortal and temporal kingdom. In that regard, TFP is correct about you being incorrect, your quote from Elder Holland notwithstanding.

To avoid conflation in the future, the question needs to be qualified something along the lines of: "Are we in a mortal and temporal, earthly telestial kingdom as differentiated from an immortal and eternal, heavenly telestial kingdom?"

I understand that doing so may work at cross purposes when pitching your Protestant and church-leader-defying beliefs about the after-life, but intellectual honesty demand it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, how is one to decipher temple teachings which use the same wording to describe our earth as the Telestial kingdom/Telestial world? Is it not true the endowment is the "full" plan of salvation laid out? Certainly the "full" plan would expound upon the three kingdoms, right? So then, why is there only one place where salvation is granted in the "full" plan as taught in the temple?

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, how is one to decipher temple teachings which use the same wording to describe our earth as the Telestial kingdom/Telestial world? I

It would behoove you to have figured that out before preaching contrary to church leaders.

Here is a hint: in addition to the Holy Spirit, context is critical, as is also awareness of multiple connotations and layers of meaning, types and shadows, figurative vs. literal, etc. You know, basic principles of reading comprehension. 

It is also quite useful to, as this weeks "Come Follow Me" lesson intimates: have a ready mind (Acts 17:11) cultivated for growth (Mt 13:1-29), or in other words be humble (teachable) and rightly defer to God's chosen servants.

If you believe you are already there, then you have some serious introspection and external feedback issues.

Quote

s it not true the endowment is the "full" plan of salvation laid out? Certainly the "full" plan would expound upon the three kingdoms, right? So then, why is there only one place where salvation is granted in the "full" plan as taught in the temple?

Like TFP, I won't discuss the temple things here with you or anyone else. And, besides, your question doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[askandanswer]

On 1/5/2019 at 7:03 AM, Rob Osborn said:

From there we advance into the terrestrial kingdom and from there to the Celestial. Just like the rungs of the ladder Joseph extrapolated on, we do indeed progress from one kingdom to the next until we become all perfected as one body of saints all to receive eternal life like the scriptures speak of.

This idea, to me, seems to have some similarities with this idea that we have been warned against in the Book of Mormon

8  And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 28:8)

I decided not to include the following verse, as to do so would seem a little judgemental, but it might be worth looking it up. 

This idea that all will be saved also seems to be similar to what Nehor taught, as recorded in Alma 1

 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 1:4)

These two verses alone seem to be sufficient reason to be cautious about the idea that all will eventually be saved. 

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

It would behoove you to have figured that out before preaching contrary to church leaders.

Here is a hint: in addition to the Holy Spirit, context is critical, as is also awareness of multiple connotations and layers of meaning, types and shadows, figurative vs. literal, etc. You know, basic principles of reading comprehension. 

It is also quite useful to, as this weeks "Come Follow Me" lesson intimates: have a ready mind (Acts 17:11) cultivated for growth (Mt 13:1-29), or in other words be humble (teachable) and rightly defer to God's chosen servants.

If you believe you are already there, then you have some serious introspection and external feedback issues.

Like TFP, I won't discuss the temple things here with you or anyone else. And, besides, your question doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

In the temple prep manual it says-

"Explain that in the temple, we learn more about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and we are able to grow closer to Them. We learn about Their plan for us, which is referred to in the scriptures by various titles, such as the plan of redemption or plan of salvation."

"In the Temple We Are Taught the Plan of Salvation
                    
                    Explain that as part of the temple endowment, the plan of salvation is taught"

"Emphasize that the temple provides us with knowledge about this plan, knowledge that brings great blessings into our lives."

And so I ask, if the gospel is revealed line upon line, precept upon precept, and the temple endowment thus represents the most up to date definitions we have on the plan of salvation, why is it that in that plan, in the temple, the only destination for us is the Celestial kingdom? Don't you find it interesting that the specific wording, over and over again, in the endowment shows a progression through the kingdoms rather than assignment eternally to one of them? Is the temple endowment not the real plan of salvation?

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This idea, to me, seems to have some similarities with this idea that we have been warned against in the Book of Mormon

8  And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 28:8)

I decided not to include the following verse, as to do so would seem a little judgemental, but it might be worth looking it up. 

This idea that all will be saved also seems to be similar to what Nehor taught, as recorded in Alma 1

 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 1:4)

These two verses alone seem to be sufficient reason to be cautious about the idea that all will eventually be saved. 

I'm not teaching that at all, actually the opposite. This is what I teach-in the gospel of Jesus Christ

"26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
            27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Doesn't sound like all will be saved, just the righteous, that's what I teach. And what do the saved all receive? Eternal life. That's the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[pam]

Because this thread has actually started getting into what is said in the temple (which we are not to share publicly) I'm closing this thread.