Changing skin color

[zil]

I can't believe you people have managed three pages all about @MormonGator's tattoos.

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, Scott said:

I don't know if he can maintain his membership, but he can't hold the priesthood or a temple recommend.

What evidence do you have for this? I mean we have Democrats who hold the priesthood and temple recommends.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Scott said:

I don't know if he can maintain his membership, but he can't hold the priesthood or a temple recommend.

Huh???

People do.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

Huh???

People do. 

An ardent racist can hold a temple recommend?

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

An ardent racist can hold a temple recommend?

As long as they keep trying to change -- or at least control those feelings and ideas.

[Guest Scott]

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

What evidence do you have for this? I mean we have Democrats who hold the priesthood and temple recommends.

Although the KKK wasn't mentioned specifically, while I was in the Bishopric, we were specifically told that current members of hate groups, apostate groups, and polygamous groups (even if you weren't a polygamist) are ineligible for temple recommends and priesthood.  

I don't know about retaining membership though.  You would have to ask someone else that question.  

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

Although the KKK wasn't mentioned specifically, while I was in the Bishopric, we were specifically told that current members of hate groups, apostate groups, and polygamous groups (even if you weren't a polygamist) are ineligible for temple recommends and priesthood.  

I don't know about retaining membership though.  You would have to ask someone else that question.  

That would rule out most democrats

 

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

Although the KKK wasn't mentioned specifically, while I was in the Bishopric, we were specifically told that current members of hate groups, apostate groups, and polygamous groups (even if you weren't a polygamist) are ineligible for temple recommends and priesthood.  

I don't know about retaining membership though.  You would have to ask someone else that question.  

Intriguing, where is that language in the temple recommend, or in a priesthood worthiness interview?

[Guest Scott]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

As long as they keep trying to change -- or at least control those feelings and ideas.

Maybe if they are racist, but not if they are a current member of a hate group.  We were told this specifically when I was in the Bishopric.

[Guest Scott]

2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Intriguing, where is that language in the temple recommend, or in a priesthood worthiness interview?

I don't know about the priesthood interview, but Question 7 for the Temple Recommend interview.   The things I mentioned are the specifics pertaining to question 7.   You can ask your bishop for clarification and confirmation.  

[Anddenex]

Just now, Scott said:

I don't know about the priesthood interview, but Question 7 for the Temple Recommend interview.   The things I mentioned are the specifics pertaining to question 7.   You can ask your bishop for clarification and confirmation.  

Don't need to ask my bishop, the clarification you are providing is subjective to the person answering the question (and is personal opinion on the matter). Is it just the KKK, or do you also accept this for Black Panthers, specific LGBT movements (that members participate in and are affiliated with), and democrats who participate and accept and highlight these hate groups, apostate groups, and others?

I was in a bishopric, and when people kept adding something to the temple recommend (as you are), the stake president sadly had to keep telling people "Stop adding to what is not there."

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Don't need to ask my bishop, the clarification you are providing is subjective to the person answering the question (and is personal opinion on the matter). Is it just the KKK, or do you also accept this for Black Panthers, specific LGBT movements (that members participate in and are affiliated with), and democrats who participate and accept and highlight these hate groups, apostate groups, and others?

I was in a bishopric, and when people kept adding something to the temple recommend (as you are), the stake president sadly had to keep telling people "Stop adding to what is not there."

People who are in the KKK and the Black Panthers have no business going into the house of the Lord. 

What some (some, not all, some) can't understand is that racism is a human trait. Everyone no matter what their skin color is can be racist and bigoted. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Scott said:

Maybe if they are racist, but not if they are a current member of a hate group.  We were told this specifically when I was in the Bishopric.

Depends on your definition of "hate group."  

And the truth is that I'm actually ignorant to many member of hate groups.  My great-great-grand uncle was a member of the KKK.  But he was a great man.  In my family history search, I have never found anything that he said that even by modern standards could be considered racist.  I find that very interesting.

I have actually heard only three members of the nation of Islam speak anti-Semitic rhetoric.  But most of the others?  I've never known any.  Do we really know much about the

People say that Jews are truly racist as well.  But I've never heard a Jew actually say anything racist.

So, categorizing or pronouncing summary judgment is not what I feel qualified to do.  I'm more on the side of trying to forgive as long as they keep trying to behave themselves and repent.   

I've said this before.  It is not about where we are on the road.  It is about whether we are turning to the Lord or turning to Satan or the world.

[person0]

50 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

racism that African Americans have encountered

I have a white friend from high school who immigrated from South Africa.  She is an African American.  I have black acquaintances from Brazil, Jamaica, and the Dominican Republic, are they African American?  Nope.

53 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

A white person has no idea-none-what a black person can go through on a daily basis.

You are absolutely right about this; however, in 2019, I would argue that a black man/woman who is willing to work hard and wants to succeed in education and employment has a greater advantage than an individual of any other race.

[anatess2]

11 minutes ago, Scott said:

Maybe if they are racist, but not if they are a current member of a hate group.  We were told this specifically when I was in the Bishopric.

Here's where the pedal hit the metal... What would a bishopric consider a "hate group".  Is there a list?

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

  My great-great-grand uncle was a member of the KKK.  But he was a great man. 

So I join a Nazi group and advocate the murder of jews, would you still call me a great man? 

No offense to your uncle, but no. "Great men" do not join groups that advocate killing innocent people based on skin color. Way off. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by MormonGator

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

So I join a Nazi and advocate the murder of jews, would you still call me a great man? 

No offense to your uncle, but no. "Great men" do not join groups that advocate killing innocent people based on skin color. Way off. 

Well, there go the founding fathers.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, person0 said:

I have a white friend from high school who immigrated from South Africa.  She is an African American.  I have black acquaintances from Brazil, Jamaica, and the Dominican Republic, are they African American?  Nope.

Yes, the term "African American" is often misused. But it's common vernacular now that African American means "black person". 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Grunt said:

Well, there go the founding fathers.

What founding father was in the KKK? 

[Guest Scott]

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

Is it just the KKK, or do you also accept this for Black Panthers, specific LGBT movements

We were instructed on hate groups.

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

I was in a bishopric, and when people kept adding something to the temple recommend (as you are), the stake president sadly had to keep telling people "Stop adding to what is not there."

We did not add anything and nothing more was asked during the interview.   The questions are asked just as they are printed in Church guidelines.

This was instruction to the Bishopric.

And if you want clarification, yes you should ask your Bishop.  Why don't you ask him?   He will either tell you are tell you where to find the answer.

Just because something isn't mentioned specifically in an interview doesn't mean that Bishops aren't instructed.  For example, children of same sex marriage parents are currently not supposed to be baptized.  There is nothing in the Baptism questions that ask this.

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

What founding father was in the KKK? 

None.  But many were, or supported, slave owners.  Unless your position is it's worse to be in a racist organization and not practice racism than it is to actually practice racism.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

So I join a Nazi group and advocate the murder of jews, would you still call me a great man? 

No offense to your uncle, but no. "Great men" do not join groups that advocate killing innocent people based on skin color. Way off. 

You are talking about the advocating of killing innocent people.  I'm trying to get away from the "categorizing" and "guilt by association". Because it's a very thin line between that and ardent racism.  It's categorization and stereotyping.

As I said, I NEVER found anything in any family history work where he advocated any illegal activities or the physical harm of ANYone.  I realize this is making me sound like I'm trying to defend the KKK.  Not so.  What I'm trying to do is say that judgment should be about the individual, not whom he associated with. 

FINE LINE:  If I found something which indicated he "hated" blacks, I might chalk it up to "a product of his times."  If I found that he murdered someone, I'd be very saddened that he would not be inheriting the Celestial Kingdom no matter what temple work we did for him.  But I judge his actual action.  Not the fact that he was "part of a group" -- no matter what GROUP he was a part of (except for the Democrat party, of course -- kidding).

 

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

People who are in the KKK and the Black Panthers have no business going into the house of the Lord. 

What some (some, not all, some) can't understand is that racism is a human trait. Everyone no matter what their skin color is can be racist and bigoted. 

As to the first sentence MG, we are both in agreement. What I often hear though is how someone will point out one "hate group" while accepting another "hate group" as OK.  According to question #7 in the temple recommend, Democrats fit the bill, and yet we see many members who are democrats who are good people (who don't accept all of the democratic dogma). So, the question is then placed upon the one answering, not upon the bishopric to say, "No, you can't hold  recommend because you belong to this group."

The only way a bishop could deny a KKK member is if they know they have committed some crime. Some members of a group stand for certain aspects of the group while rejecting the others. So again, a blanket statement is hard to say if you are part of this group -- no temple recommend. The Law of Witnesses becomes important, which people tend not to understand either.

Your last statement is correct, sadly though we live in a world where my teenage son goes to a conference and is told he is racist because he is white, although he exhibits no hate toward any skin color.

That is the point I am making with Scott. Nothing he specifies is as he specifies it.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

None.  But many were, or supported, slave owners.  Unless your position is it's worse to be in a racist organization and not practice racism than it is to actually practice racism.

John Adams detested slavery. James Madison called it "oppressive". Jefferson spoke out against it, even though he owned slaves. So the founding fathers relationship with slavery is nuanced and complicated.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

Your last statement is correct, sadly though we live in a world where my teenage son goes to a conference and is told he is racist because he is white, although he exhibits no hate toward any skin color.

Totally agree on that. It's incredibly depressing that white people are accused of being racist without actually you know, being racist. 

 

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

What I often hear though is how someone will point out one "hate group" while accepting another "hate group" as OK. 

Yup. Agree again.