Changing skin color


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7 minutes ago, Scott said:

We were instructed on hate groups.

We did not add anything and nothing more was asked during the interview.   The questions are asked just as they are printed in Church guidelines.

This was instruction to the Bishopric.

And if you want clarification, yes you should ask your Bishop.  Why don't you ask him?   He will either tell you are tell you where to find the answer.

Just because something isn't mentioned specifically in an interview doesn't mean that Bishops aren't instructed.  For example, children of same sex marriage parents are currently not supposed to be baptized.  There is nothing in the Baptism questions that ask this.

If you are implying anyone part of KKK can't hold a recommend and can't hold priesthood then yes you are adding to the recommend.

And if you want clarification, yes you should ask your Bishop.  Why don't you ask him?   He will either tell you are tell you where to find the answer.

I already know the answer, why waste a bishop's time with a silly question I already know the answer to.

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

John Adams detested slavery. James Madison called it "oppressive". Jefferson spoke out against it, even though he owned slaves. So the founding fathers relationship with slavery is nuanced and complicated.

So?  That doesn't negate my point.  it does, however, seem to conclude that people and their relationships are nuanced and you believe blanket your statement may not be as cut and dry as you made it out to be originally?

Edited by Grunt
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6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

As I said, I NEVER found anything in any family history work where he advocated any illegal activities or the physical harm of ANYone.  I realize this is making me sound like I'm trying to defend the KKK.  Not so.  What I'm trying to do is say that judgment should be about the individual, not whom he associated with. 

 

I understand that @Carborendum,and you know I mean no offense to you or your family. You are a great guy, and I would never accuse you of trying to defend the KKK. 

if I join a group that advocated the burning of crosses in the homes of LDS families, but I didn't actually do it personally, would you consider me a great man? 

Edited by MormonGator
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Just now, MormonGator said:

John Adams detested slavery. James Madison called it "oppressive". Jefferson spoke out against it, even though he owned slaves. So the founding fathers relationship with slavery is nuanced and complicated.

And any "group" or category is -- including slave owners or Nazis.

Many people in Germany joined the Nazi party simply because of the economic and political principles, not necessarily the racist principles.  Would you judge all them for choosing the wrong side?  Many didn't really know what was going on.  But they were "associated" with the evil generated by Hitler.  Were they just as guilty?

The Left want to paint the Tea Party as a hate group.  If we had an ardent liberal bishop, should he be allowed to exclude any member of the Tea Party from holding a temple recommend?

Do you see how easy "guilt by association" can cut both ways?  I try to do what's best in either direction.

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Many people in Germany joined the Nazi party simply because of the economic and political principles, not necessarily the racist principles.  Would you judge all them for choosing the wrong side? 

Honestly, yes. Eventually you need to take a stand and realize that you are supporting a much greater evil than if you agree with them on politics/economics. Killing innocent people isn't okay, even if you agree with their tax policy. 

 

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The left wants to paint the Tea Party as a hate group.  If we had an ardent liberal bishop, should he be allowed to exclude any member of the Tea Party from holding a temple recommend?

 

For the second time, I agree that conservatives are called racist too often, and it's completely inappropriate. 

Edited by MormonGator
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Just now, MormonGator said:

Honestly, yes. Eventually you need to take a stand and realize that you are supporting a much greater evil than if you agree with them on politics/economics. Killing innocent people isn't okay, even if you agree with their tax policy. 

 

For the second time, I agree that conservatives are called racist too often, and it's completely inappropriate. 

The problem is that you're continuing to conflate the act with the group.  Since I don't know where we really can draw the line with some "groups" I prefer to say that we really shouldn't judge ANYONE on the group, but by their individual acts.

If that INDIVIDUAL endorses, encourages, or participates in killing, then ABSOLUTELY!!! I will condemn their acts.  But shy of that, I'm having difficulty with a blanket statement "ANY member of the KKK is just plain evil."

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

The problem is that you're continuing to conflate the act with the group.  Since I don't know where we really can draw the line with some "groups" I prefer to say that we really shouldn't judge ANYONE on the group, but by their individual acts.

If that INDIVIDUAL endorses, encourages, or participates in killing, then ABSOLUTELY!!! I will condemn their acts.  But shy of that, I'm having difficulty with a blanket statement "ANY member of the KKK is just plain evil."

So I can join a group that advocates putting LDS in concentration camps, threatens interracial couples with physical violence and still be considered a good person? 

No. 

That's where we differ, strongly. I'm not sure we'll be able to come to an agreement on this one. 

Edited by MormonGator
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3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

So I can join a group that advocates putting LDS in concentration camps, threatens interracial couples with physical violence and still be considered a good person? 

Depends on your reason for joining the group.  Let's see...  If you joined the group because the group has all the information about an interracial couple that abducted your daughter and the only way to get the information is if you join the group.... there's no reason for you to be considered a bad person.

A temple recommend is not a group recommend.  It's an individual recommend.  

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Just now, MormonGator said:

So I can join a group that advocates putting LDS in concentration camps, threatens interracial couples with physical violence and still be considered a good person? 

That's where we differ, strongly. I'm not sure we'll be able to come to an agreement on this one. 

I guess I'm not really communicating this very well.  I ask for your patience and understanding as I try to state it another way.

Maybe it really is about ignorance.  Remember, I began this side thread with my admission that I'm really ignorant of these groups.  If I KNEW that the SOLE purpose was something completely reprehensible, then I'd be right alongside you in condemning the group's GOALS and STATED PURPOSE and if made public, their ACTIONS.  And if it really were that extreme, I'd condemn them

But just as "slave owners" could easily be categorized, we make allowance for certain founding fathers?  To think of someone being so callous that they would put their financial well being above the humanity and another human being's desire for liberty is abhorrent to me.  So, why NOT condemn all the founding fathers as evil?

There are even some liberals who agree that abortion is a grave sin and should probably be a crime (in many cases).  But they will defend Planned Parenthood because there are some women who get treated for OTHER things there.  While I disagree, I can't really destroy their argument.  Thus, I'm not all that motivated to destroy PP.

You yourself are pro-choice.  You should understand that.

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Guest MormonGator
6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

  I ask for your patience and understanding as I try to state it another way.

And you certainly have it my brother, it's never personal, even when the disagreement is passionate/heated. You know I consider you a friend and a mentor when it comes to religion.

  Check your private messages, by the way. 

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21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

If that INDIVIDUAL endorses, encourages, or participates in killing, then ABSOLUTELY!!! I will condemn their acts.  But shy of that, I'm having difficulty with a blanket statement "ANY member of the KKK is just plain evil."

At the very least not when it comes to temple recommends.  We don't give temple recommends to the group.  We give the recommends to an individual.  The reasons the individual is in the group matters.

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As it pertains to the KKK, I’ll just note that my understanding is that the organization was intended to “protect” the South against all “nonwhite”/non-WASP influences, including Mormonism.  The Klan was a perennial bane of the Church’s Southern States missionaries; and if I had a family legend that great-grandpa-so-and-so was both a Mormon and a KKK member, I’d approach that legend with extreme skepticism.  

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3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

As it pertains to the KKK, I’ll just note that my understanding is that the organization was intended to “protect” the South against all “nonwhite”/non-WASP influences, including Mormonism.  The Klan was a perennial bane of the Church’s Southern States missionaries; and if I had a family legend that great-grandpa-so-and-so was both a Mormon and a KKK member, I’d approach that legend with extreme skepticism.  

For the record, my uncle was not a member of the Church.  He lived around the turn of the last century, cir. 1900.

My family didn't convert until 1960 or so.

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

If you are implying anyone part of KKK can't hold a recommend and can't hold priesthood then yes you are adding to the recommend.

Here is question 7 in the Temple Recommend Interview:

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Here is a statement from Church leadership on White Supremacy groups:

It has been called to our attention that there are some among the various pro-white and white supremacy communities who assert that the Church is neutral toward or in support of their views. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the New Testament, Jesus said: ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself’ (Matthew 22:37–39). The Book of Mormon teaches ‘all are alike unto God’” (2 Nephi 26:33).

White supremacist attitudes are morally wrong and sinful, and we condemn them. Church members who promote or pursue a ‘white culture’ or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.

Notice that it says "white supremacist attitudes", not violence or words.

President Hinckley said the following:

No man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ.’ For members of the Church, we reaffirm that teaching today and the Savior’s admonition to love our neighbor
 

So how can you be condemned by the Church leadership (condemned is the exact word used in the statement), be not in harmony with the teachings of the Church, and not be a disciple of Christ and yet still receive a temple recommend?   Even if the person wasn't vocal about it, the first statement says the mere attitudes are condemned.  
 

Quote

And if you want clarification, yes you should ask your Bishop.  Why don't you ask him?   He will either tell you are tell you where to find the answer.

The Bishop is the one who told us, but we recently moved to a new ward, and yes I will ask him.   I'm pretty sure I already know what the answer will be.

Edited by Scott
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On 1/16/2019 at 1:14 PM, MormonGator said:

Have you ever experienced any racist behavior from members in the church? 

I can't find the book now (I thought I ordered it on amazon, but I might have borrowed it from my university's library), but I read a book that had letters from the leadership on certain matters, thoughts about girls wearing mini-dresses to the temple, using a Disney film for the temple, etc. One of the issues that came up was members adopting black children - they were advised not to do it. I forget if (other than the racism) one of the reasons was that they couldn't be sealed to these kids. I keep things like this in the back of my mind when dealing with older people who didn't grow up in a diverse area.

Awhile back I posted about a member who asked me, rather imperiously, why I wasn't going to take a 2nd cleaning shift. I really didn't like his attitude, but can't say it came out of racism. He could have just been trying to exert power or he is a sexist pig. We have had some other black converts since I joined, but only 1 has stayed, and she doesn't attend that often, so there's not a lot of people in the ward to be racist about.  : )

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On 1/18/2019 at 12:22 PM, Scott said:

Here is question 7 in the Temple Recommend Interview:

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Here is a statement from Church leadership on White Supremacy groups:

It has been called to our attention that there are some among the various pro-white and white supremacy communities who assert that the Church is neutral toward or in support of their views. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the New Testament, Jesus said: ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself’ (Matthew 22:37–39). The Book of Mormon teaches ‘all are alike unto God’” (2 Nephi 26:33).

White supremacist attitudes are morally wrong and sinful, and we condemn them. Church members who promote or pursue a ‘white culture’ or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.

Notice that it says "white supremacist attitudes", not violence or words.

President Hinckley said the following:

No man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ.’ For members of the Church, we reaffirm that teaching today and the Savior’s admonition to love our neighbor
 

So how can you be condemned by the Church leadership (condemned is the exact word used in the statement), be not in harmony with the teachings of the Church, and not be a disciple of Christ and yet still receive a temple recommend?   Even if the person wasn't vocal about it, the first statement says the mere attitudes are condemned.  ASK A DEMOCRAT. Democrats support abortion which is condemned by the Church. Not only do they support abortion they lobby for it, call others who are pro-life very mean terms, etc... Should we go on how many things the Democrat supports (SSM?) that the Church condemns, is not in harmony with truth, and yet we have members -- even popular ones (Harry Reid) -- who hold a temple recommend despite how easily #7 applies. Unless of course you think the Church supports and doesn't condemn abortion, SSM, and many other things this party platform stands for?
 

The Bishop is the one who told us, but we recently moved to a new ward, and yes I will ask him.   I'm pretty sure I already know what the answer will be.

I am familiar with question #7. I am familiar with the teachings of the Church. With all this you still didn't prove how they couldn't hold a temple recommend, nor hold the priesthood.

Democrats are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church either. Have you ever made the statement that a Democrat is not able to do as you have suggested like the KKK?

If not, then you shouldn't make statements regarding the KKK either. As mentioned previously I am not in support of the KKK, nor Black Panthers, nor any other party or group that makes any disparaging remarks against race. Notice President Hinckley says "race." This includes anyone making a disparaging remark toward the "white race" also. Have you ever heard of members of the Church who make disparaging remarks against "white race"? I have, and these are people who hold temple recommends.

EDIT: The last statement to your response was actually a question you asked me, which I answered with, "I already know the answer, why waste a bishop's time with a silly question I already know the answer to."

You didn't provide anything I wasn't already familiar with.

Edited by Anddenex
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11 hours ago, Anddenex said:

ASK A DEMOCRAT. Democrats support abortion which is condemned by the Church. Not only do they support abortion they lobby for it, call others who are pro-life very mean terms, etc... Should we go on how many things the Democrat supports (SSM?) that the Church condemns, is not in harmony with truth, and yet we have members -- even popular ones (Harry Reid) -- who hold a temple recommend despite how easily #7 applies. Unless of course you think the Church supports and doesn't condemn abortion, SSM, and many other things this party platform stands for?

Harry Reid holds a temple recommend and taught Gospel Doctrine class even as he publicly contradicts the teachings of the Church (abortion, same sex marriage, gambling) and led the Senate in the promotion of such things.

And the reason he holds a recommend is because... personally, he doesn't do those things even as he works hard to make it easier for others to do such things.

Edited by anatess2
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11 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I am familiar with question #7. I am familiar with the teachings of the Church. With all this you still didn't prove how they couldn't hold a temple recommend, nor hold the priesthood.

Democrats are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church either. Have you ever made the statement that a Democrat is not able to do as you have suggested like the KKK?

If not, then you shouldn't make statements regarding the KKK either. As mentioned previously I am not in support of the KKK, nor Black Panthers, nor any other party or group that makes any disparaging remarks against race. Notice President Hinckley says "race." This includes anyone making a disparaging remark toward the "white race" also. Have you ever heard of members of the Church who make disparaging remarks against "white race"? I have, and these are people who hold temple recommends.

EDIT: The last statement to your response was actually a question you asked me, which I answered with, "I already know the answer, why waste a bishop's time with a silly question I already know the answer to."

You didn't provide anything I wasn't already familiar with.

I was in the ACLU and got a temple recommend @Anddenex.  No one said anything to me. If my former stake president found white robes and large wooden crosses in my truck, then he'd probably say something. 

Edited by MormonGator
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27 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Harry Reid holds a temple recommend and taught Gospel Doctrine class even as he publicly contradicts the teachings of the Church (abortion, same sex marriage, gambling) and led the Senate in the promotion of such things.

And the reason he holds a recommend is because... personally, he doesn't do those things even as he works hard to make it easier for others to do such things.

Correct, and that is the point being made. Question #7 in the temple recommend doesn't say "if you do those things"? It specifically says, if you "support," "affiliate with," or "agree with" any group. I don't have to "do" I only have to agree, support, or affiliate.

If a democrat who supports, agrees with, and affiliates with practices and teaching that are condemned by the gospel, and are opposed how then are they able to hold the priesthood and a temple recommend?

Simple, the temple question is a personal question, and while people may or may not hold to all tenets of a group they can answer according to their conscience. As bishops, you can't call out one "group" while allowing others. Thus we don't add or take away from what the temple recommend says by pointing out one group/party.

There may be KKK members who hold to the notion of, the same notion, I have seen so many other races wear (Black power, polynesian power, shirts), but do not participate or do anything that is harmful, but have pride in their race.

 

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28 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I was in the ACLU and got a temple recommend @Anddenex.  No one said anything to me. If my former stake president found white robes and large wooden crosses in my truck, then he'd probably say something. 

I wouldn't say anything to either. Again, we don't add or take away from what the temple recommend says. If you can't "call out" ALL organizations that support, affiliate with, or agree with things that oppose Church teachings then you (general) shouldn't call out any, and allow the person in the recommend answer "yes" or "no" to this question.

I for one, could not answer in good conscience if I was a member of the KKK, Black Panther, Democrat, ACLU, or any other group or organization that specifies such. Thus I am not a Republican, I am not a Libertarian, I am not affiliated with any party or group that supports such.

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52 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Harry Reid holds a temple recommend and taught Gospel Doctrine class even as he publicly contradicts the teachings of the Church (abortion, same sex marriage, gambling) and led the Senate in the promotion of such things.

And the reason he holds a recommend is because... personally, he doesn't do those things even as he works hard to make it easier for others to do such things.

I don't know how that's possible, in my humble opinion.

Edited by Grunt
changed to be less contradictory.
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Guest MormonGator
25 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I wouldn't say anything to either. Again, we don't add or take away from what the temple recommend says. If you can't "call out" ALL organizations that support, affiliate with, or agree with things that oppose Church teachings then you (general) shouldn't call out any, and allow the person in the recommend answer "yes" or "no" to this question.

I for one, could not answer in good conscience if I was a member of the KKK, Black Panther, Democrat, ACLU, or any other group or organization that specifies such. Thus I am not a Republican, I am not a Libertarian, I am not affiliated with any party or group that supports such.

I understand.

One of the members of my old ward was an ex-democratic congressional representative. His entire family was wonderful. I always found it funny that for a church so dominated by republicans one of the most wonderful and moral families I've ever met were all democrats.  Still do find it funny, to be honest. 

 

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I understand.

One of the members of my old ward was an ex-democratic congressional representative. His entire family was wonderful. I always found it funny that for a church so dominated by republicans one of the most wonderful and moral families I've ever met were all democrats.  Still do find it funny, to be honest.

Your last statement is the point being made here by me. A person that affiliates with, participates in, and supports a group that teaches and opposes Church teachings doesn't mean thy adhere to everything within that group. Thus any statement of "Anyone" belonging to a particular group can't hold a recommend (or priesthood) is in error, unless the bishop or stake president has received witness that the individual is indeed doing something truly against the question found in #7 of the temple recommend.

EDIT: If a person is a part of the KKK, and only because they are proud they are white and care about their race. I have no problems with. If there is witness, multiple witness, that they dressed in an outfit with a white hoodly and then began torching crosses in front of a house that isn't white to scare, make a statement, whatever...Ya, totally fine with #7 and discipline or removal of temple recommend. Same goes for any group, not just KKK.

Edited by Anddenex
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