Possible reasons why God does what He does

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I do not know that I understand what you are implying - so I will probe your response with a couple of questions to try to understand.  

I'm not implying. I'm saying that if you already know that someone is going to get killed by going somewhere and you send them there anyway then the agency of whatever forces involved in the killing is irrelevant to whether you had control over and chose to send said person anyhow.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

First - Did he send (force) us or did we come voluntarily by our own choice? 

Second - Did G-d "trick" or deceive us by sending us into this life ignorant and void of what we were getting ourselves into?  Or is it the method of G-d (as Isaiah testified 46:10) not just seeing the beginning to the end but "Declaring the end from the beginning"?

I'm not getting into this bullcrap with you again.

[Guest]

On 1/6/2019 at 12:12 AM, askandanswer said:

Sometimes people feel inclined to question why God does what He does. I suggest that it may be that everything that God does can be explained by one of four reasons. They are

1. He loves us and is doing all He can to enable our learning and progression. I suspect that this is the reason that explains the majority of His actions.

2. He is bound by universal and eternal laws to which even He is subject, ie  laws that relate to truth, justice, sin opposition, suffering and progression. (The need to comply with such laws is the only reason why I can think of that an atonement was needed)

3. He is bound by covenants that He has made, eg, to His wife, and possibly, to us, and possibly to other beings or Gods with whom He co-exists

4. He has personal preferences on some issues, eg, white, rather than any other colour to symbolize purity, 2, rather than any other number, being the preferred number of counselors in a presidency, 12, rather than any other number being the preferred number of apostles, and olive oil, rather than any other kind of oil, to be the oil that is used for sacred purposes.

Is this too few, or too many reasons to explain all of God’s actions? What might need to be deleted or added to give a more accurate understanding of why God does what He does?

I look forward to your responses because this is something I have been thinking about a bit lately and I think it would be useful to have an improved understanding of why God does what He does.

Actually, I tend to think this is 1. Oversimplification and 2. Not inclusive enough.

My impression has been that the Lord always makes a "big" move because of MANY different things.  You can ask why he did that.  The answer is: X.  But why didn't he do it this other way?  Because of Y.  But then... Because of Z.  As you go down this road a lot, we begin to realize that the decision he made took care of MANY different things with a single choice.  But because we are so short sighted, we simply don't see all the reasons until we really search, ponder, and pray.  Without that, we tend to think we know better than God.

Who was it that came on the site and said how stupid it was for Nephi to kill Laban?  They didn't realize there were MULTIPLE things going on.  And this one decision -- this prompting of the Spirit addressed MANY different things with a single decision.

The problem there was not with God.  It was with man for not being able to see all the culmination of purposes and the myriad of ramifications from that choice.

[Traveler]

35 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not implying. I'm saying that if you already know that someone is going to get killed by going somewhere and you send them there anyway then the agency of whatever forces involved in the killing is irrelevant to whether you had control over and chose to send said person anyhow.

I'm not getting into this bullcrap with you again.

Wow - so you believe Isaiah is bullcrap!!!!  That explains a lot.

 

The Traveler

[person0]

14 hours ago, Kidney58 said:

Try reading tragedy or destiny by Kimball

I love that talk.

[person0]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

when He will get involved and when He won't

He is always involved. Intimately. Personally. Absolutely. Just because we don't see or understand. Just because we aren't aware or don't "feel" the matter. He is there. He is involved. He cares. He loves. And this is His plan, His world, His children, and His work and glory.

I think that watching and being aware counts as being involved, even if He doesn't 'do' anything.  Even if God takes an 'inactive' role in a situation, that is Him being involved; He is doing the 100% perfect and right thing to do.

[The Folk Prophet]

31 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Wow - so you believe Isaiah is bullcrap!!!!  That explains a lot.

Rob?

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

I think that watching and being aware counts as being involved, even if He doesn't 'do' anything.  Even if God takes an 'inactive' role in a situation, that is Him being involved; He is doing the 100% perfect and right thing to do.

I think that this is an example of God being involved

18  But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
19  ¶ Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
20  And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
21  Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
22  Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.
23  And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24  Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?  They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25  He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
 

I think that this is an example of God watching and observing, and to me, being uninvolved

8  And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.
9  And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.
10  And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene?  Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11  But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.
 

[person0]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

I get your point, but this reads to me that God is definitely involved.

[askandanswer]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Who was it that came on the site and said how stupid it was for Nephi to kill Laban?  They didn't realize there were MULTIPLE things going on.  And this one decision -- this prompting of the Spirit addressed MANY different things with a single decision.

It seems to me that this event would fit comfortably under reason 1 - He loves us and is doing all He can to enable our learning and progression.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

It seems to me that this event would fit comfortably under reason 1 - He loves us and is doing all He can to enable our learning and progression.

With that reasoning, you could say that about ANYthing.

[askandanswer]

On 1/6/2019 at 5:12 PM, askandanswer said:

 

Well, as I said, "I suspect that this is the reason that explains the majority of His actions." However, I don't think it explains all His actions, hence reasons 2 - 4. 

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Rob?

I will try this again.  Often I will ask you questions seeking clarifications and your responses are (for lack of a better term) demeaning, unpleasant and appear intended to create a contentious spirit between us. - Please explain (especially with a spirit of kindness) because I often think to answer in kind; thinking that is the way you desire to roll.  Would you answer - why you think Isaiah 46:10 as quoted below is bullcrap.  

Quote

is it the method of G-d (as Isaiah testified 46:10) not just seeing the beginning to the end but "Declaring the end from the beginning"?

 

The Traveler

Edited January 10, 2019 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Would you answer - why you think Isaiah 46:10 as quoted below is bullcrap.

I don't. That's you (as seems to be common) misinterpreting what I said.

When I don't see eye to eye with you you claim I must disagree with the scriptures. That's the Rob-like thing and part of why I won't get into it with you. It is an underhanded, dishonest approach to conversation. It is a prime example of the bullcrap of which I speak.

I have explained, ad nauseum, my views on agency and where I consider your approach flawed. If you want to rehash it then search out old posts on the matter and review them, but I'm not going to argue with you about it any longer.

Edited January 10, 2019 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Well, as I said, "I suspect that this is the reason that explains the majority of His actions." However, I don't think it explains all His actions, hence reasons 2 - 4. 

No, really.  With the reasoning you appear to be using, " He loves us and is doing all He can to enable our learning and progression. " explains EVERYTHING he does.

Quote

For behold, this is my work and my glory: To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

There it is.  All nicely packaged for you.  EVERYthing he does can be summed up with this.  But in your OP, you were going for something a little more down to earth.  And I provided that more down to earth explanation.  But for some reason, you took that and went back to the more grandiose reasoning as if it were any different than the Moses scripture I quoted.

Further, you want to add to it?  Huh?

There are dozens of reasons why.  And the Lord will always have multiple reasons for doing anything.  Either you want an overarching explanation, or you want the nitty-gritty.

The over-arching explanations are already given.  No need to re-hash them or re-word them.  But you obviously can if that rocks your boat.

But if you're asking for smaller "fit for purpose" reasons, then you have to eventually admit:

1) We don't know the mind of God.
2) There are as many explanations for His actions as there are actions.

And to try to explain them the way you seem to be doing... well, I just don't see the purpose here.  What is it you're trying to accomplish?  And I'm not saying that in a critical way.  I'm just confused why you seem to be untethered in your take on this.

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't. That's you (as seems to be common) misinterpreting what I said.

When I don't see eye to eye with you you claim I must disagree with the scriptures. That's the Rob-like thing and part of why I won't get into it with you. It is an underhanded, dishonest approach to conversation. It is a prime example of the bullcrap of which I speak.

I have explained, ad nauseum, my views on agency and where I consider your approach flawed. If you want to rehash it then search out old posts on the matter and review them, but I'm not going to argue with you about it any longer.

The scripture in Isaiah 46:10 says that G-d declares the end from the beginning.   Is that bullcrap?  Now I want to put this squarely on you and your use of the term bullcrap - Please note that you did not say I misused that passage in Isaiah.  You say my view on Agency is flawed - but you do not say what is flawed.  I think it is my belief that G-d intends that we are informed and understand the "end from the beginning".  Is this what you think is flawed - If so I will avoid offending you on this point.

To be honest - It appears to me that it is not my opinion but that I will challenge logic I do not understand - and I think you do not like to challenge your logic.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The scripture in Isaiah 46:10 says that G-d declares the end from the beginning.   Is that bullcrap?  Now I want to put this squarely on you and your use of the term bullcrap - Please note that you did not say I misused that passage in Isaiah.  You say my view on Agency is flawed - but you do not say what is flawed.  I think it is my belief that G-d intends that we are informed and understand the "end from the beginning".  Is this what you think is flawed - If so I will avoid offending you on this point.

To be honest - It appears to me that it is not my opinion but that I will challenge logic I do not understand - and I think you do not like to challenge your logic.

Which part of "I am not getting into this with you" are you not understanding? You can judge and accuse me 'til the cows come home. I'm still not getting into it with you.

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

1) We don't know the mind of God.

This is currently true. But it need not remain true. The fact that we don't know the mind of God is the main reason why we should inquire and question about it. And starting with His motivations seems to be like a good place to start. 

I disagree that Moses 1:39 is an all-embracing explanation although I agree that it explains most things. However, taking reason two, just as an example, that some of God's actions can be explained by the need to comply with universal, or natural laws, I can't see any other reason why God would require His dearly beloved only begotten Son to endure the enormous agonies of the atonement unless it was to satisfy some sort of demand for justice imposed by a law that God is bound by. I suspect that an atonement is not something you would require your loved one to go through if it could be prevented or if there is some other way.

As to my down to Earth examples, I think you're referring to my examples about the fourth reason, that 2, rather than any other number is the preferred number of counsellors in a Presidency, and white, rather than any other colour is the preferred symbol of purity, or 12, rather than any number being the preferred number of apostles. Yes, these are down to earth examples, but they are only examples to illustrate the point that God may have personal preferences, and that these preferences influence some of His choices and actions. There may be many more, more significant examples of where His personal preferences have influenced His decisions, and if one is seeking to better understand the mind of God, and His motivations and decision making, then one would need to take into account His personal preferences. Why do we have a sun and an atmosphere that appears yellow instead of red when it would have been just as easy as to create a red sun rather than a yellow one? Perhaps God likes yellow more than red. Why does it take a male and a female to create new life rather than a male and a female and something else? I can't see any necessary reason why it has to be two and only two, and not two plus something else, and it seems that if, from the beginning, that male and female and something else is how it was done, then I'm sure that things could be arranged so that such an arrangement would have no impact at all on God's intentions and ability to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. But the fact He, is chose the current arrangement whereby the creation of new life requires a male and a female. I think if we ask why we have this arrangement, I think that the best explanation is because that's God's personal preference, that's how He likes/wants it to be.  

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

But the fact He, is chose the current arrangement whereby the creation of new life requires a male and a female. I think if we ask why we have this arrangement, I think that the best explanation is because that's God's personal preference, that's how He likes/wants it to be. 

I think this is an area of law. Certainly life could be made another way but it would be breaking divine law of the which God himself is bound to to remain God.

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think this is an area of law. Certainly life could be made another way but it would be breaking divine law of the which God himself is bound to to remain God.

You may be right. Or not. I think its a bit hard to tell whether this particular example is because of preference or divine law. I think you can make a good case for either possibility. I think it's more likely to do with something like when God was a human, perhaps life was created by one male and one female together, so that's the way He's continued to do it, but having said that, it still leaves open the question of whether its' by preference or law. When considering whether its by preference or law, it might be relevant to consider that some creatures on earth are hermaphrodites. I'm not sure exactly what that adds to the discussion but it might add something in that it shows there are exceptions to the one male one female rule.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

You may be right. Or not. I think its a bit hard to tell whether this particular example is because of preference or divine law. I think you can make a good case for either possibility. I think it's more likely to do with something like when God was a human, perhaps life was created by one male and one female together, so that's the way He's continued to do it, but having said that, it still leaves open the question of whether its' by preference or law. When considering whether its by preference or law, it might be relevant to consider that some creatures on earth are hermaphrodites. I'm not sure exactly what that adds to the discussion but it might add something in that it shows there are exceptions to the one male one female rule.

It's safe to say there are genetic problems that create people such as hermaphrodites. I tend to think male and female procreation is a divine law, even an unchanging law.

[Traveler]

On 1/10/2019 at 11:47 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

Which part of "I am not getting into this with you" are you not understanding? You can judge and accuse me 'til the cows come home. I'm still not getting into it with you.

You are very hard to understand - especially when you respond by saying in essence that you will not respond????

I, on the other hand, feel obligated (for lack of a better term) to respond as long as anyone is willing to engage - even when I do not want to - especially in what I believe to be important spiritual matters.

 

The Traveler