Be it unto Me According to Thy Word


wenglund
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9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm finding myself in a bit of a predicament. 

I usually disagree with Mikbone.  But I find myself agreeing with him. That's bad.

But I'm disagreeing with Anatess.  That's good.

But you agree with Anatess.  That's not quite right.

So, I'm wondering...

While you agree with mikbone, the fact that you are made to wonder, and aren't publicly red-marking the statement of an Apostle, nor publicly pushing your conjecture in the face of a stiff wind of contrary evidence,  makes your "dilemma" not a problem in my estimation, and an example to us all on what to do when we have ideas that take the road less traveled and potentially meanders at odds with current church sentiment.  [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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6 hours ago, wenglund said:

While you agree with mikbone, the fact that you are made to wonder, and aren't publicly red-marking the statement of an Apostle, nor publicly pushing your conjecture in the face of a stiff wind of contrary evidence,  makes your "dilemma" not a problem in my estimation, and an example to us all on what to do when we have ideas that take the road less traveled and potentially meanders at odds with current church sentiment.  [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Kind of. The part that I agree with Milkbone on is NOT in disagreement with statements by apostles.  The part about the "Son of David", I agree with you (I think).  Milkbone is being ridiculous about that.  I don't even get what his argument is.  It seems he's just talking in circles.

Edited by Guest
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8 hours ago, wenglund said:

While you agree with mikbone, the fact that you are made to wonder, and aren't publicly red-marking the statement of an Apostle, nor publicly pushing your conjecture in the face of a stiff wind of contrary evidence,  makes your "dilemma" not a problem in my estimation, and an example to us all on what to do when we have ideas that take the road less traveled and potentially meanders at odds with current church sentiment.  [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I’m confused.  I make a statement that disagrees with an absolute comment from Talmage in a book that is 2 inches think and you label me as someone going down the road of apostasy.

Jesus the Christ is not scripture.  Its not even doctrine.  It’s commentary.

Scripture is amazing.  As explained by Dallin H Oaks in Jan 1995.

“The idea that scripture reading can lead to inspiration and revelation opens the door to the truth that a scripture is not limited to what it meant when it was written but may also include what that scripture means to a reader today. Even more, scripture reading may also lead to current revelation on whatever else the Lord wishes to communicate to the reader at that time. We do not overstate the point when we say that the scriptures can be a Urim and Thummim to assist each of us to receive personal revelation.”

I’ll give you another example.  I hear all the time how people explain that Jehovah / Jesus Christ is our Brother or Older Brother. It is a personal pet-peeve of mine.

I understand the logical trail that leads to this familial association.  And there are a few scriptures that can give the perception that we have a brother-like relationship.

But there are thousands of scriptures that state that He is our Lord, Savior, and Father.  If my children treated me as a brother I would not be pleased.

If you have seen my posts you know that I use Scripture and General Conference talks to support my idieology.  

And I don’t require you or anyone to agree with my perceptions.  And I don’t castigate anyone who agrees with any of your statements.

You don't know me and I dont know you.  But the tone, animosity, and quarrelsome nature of the arguements in some of the these forums I find dissagreable. And I’m not singling you out.  There are many comments from many posters that are less than saintly.  Perhaps if we were in a classroom our comments would be less personal.  Or we would be less likely to share doctrinal perceptions that are esoteric and loaded with feelings.  I don’t know.  

I like to discuss esoteric doctrine and always have.  And I appreciate learning others perceptions from my brothers and sisters here on this site.  I have learned from you, and I have thanked you.

Don’t worry you haven’t hurt my feelings.  My wife jokes about my feeling.  I think that you have misperceived my intentions. And, I would like to continue having a discourse with you.  

 

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49 minutes ago, mikbone said:

but the tone, animosity, and quarrelsome nature of the arguements in some of the these forums I find dissagreable.

He says with a quarrelsome and disagreeable tone.

😕

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I’m confused.  I make a statement that disagrees with an absolute comment from Talmage in a book that is 2 inches think and you label me as someone going down the road of apostasy.

No. i did nothing of the sort. At worst I implied that there is a higher road for members of the restored gospel to take when discussing controversial issues on a public message board.  In other words, I implied that you may lack humility in this case. You weren't all that teachable.

I might prove useful to self-reflect on why you way WAY over reacted to my relatively benign compliment to Carb.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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39 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I implied that you may lack humility in this case. You weren't all that teachable.

Devil's advocate stance here:

Being "teachable" by any old source, no matter how -- um -- sane or not -- isn't really what humility is all about.

Being teachable by God, His ways and means, is closer to the reality.

Frankly any time anyone states something that disagrees with me and then throws out "you aren't humble because you aren't teachable" is laughable.

Done.

Carry on.

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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Devil's advocate stance here:

Being "teachable" by any old source, no matter how -- um -- sane or not -- isn't really what humility is all about.

Being teachable by God, His ways and means, is closer to the reality.

Frankly any time anyone states something that disagrees with me and then throws out "you aren't humble because you aren't teachable" is laughable.

Done.

Carry on.

You're right about this.

In this case though, the issue was mikbone's perceived disagreement with apostles, prophets, and scriptures.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Devil's advocate stance here:

Being "teachable" by any old source, no matter how -- um -- sane or not -- isn't really what humility is all about.

Being teachable by God, His ways and means, is closer to the reality.

Frankly any time anyone states something that disagrees with me and then throws out "you aren't humble because you aren't teachable" is laughable.

Done.

Carry on.

That is an interesting point worthy of consideration.

However, the issue for me isn't people disagreeing with me since I value differing perspectives.  

Rather, it is a seeming intractable mindset lacking in healthy self-doubt or curiosity towards thoughtfully exploring challenges and varied points of view, to the point of not only trusting deferentially in one's own view over those in a likely position to know better,  if not also  in the face of strong reasoning and authoritative evidence to the contrary, but having the  gall to unhesitatingly judge the Lord's anointed to be in error.

Perhaps there are better words to describe such attitudes, but I am comfortable with my flexible and generalizable use of the words "humility" and "teachable" in this informal setting--though I appreciate you giving me pause to reconsider. [Thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

You're right about this.

In this case though, the issue was mikbone's perceived disagreement with apostles, prophets, and scriptures.

Ahhh.

Is it ok to disagree with General Authorities?  

I’m pretty sure I don’t disagree with scripture. Although I commonly disagree with other people’s interpretation of scripture.

Scriptures are written in a style that allows inspiration and wide variation of interpretation depending on the situation of the reader.

And if you notice the tone and instruction of recent general conference talks the church leadership have been doing a wonderful job teaching Core and Eternal principles and staying out of esoteric doctrine.

In the past many authorities made commentary / books on esoteric topics.  It is understandable that they would make mistakes here and there.

Edited by mikbone
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1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Is it ok to disagree with General Authorities?

Depends on what you mean by "ok"?

I think a better question would be, is it smart to disagree with General Authorities? Or even better, is it wise to agree with general authorities? Or even, is it ever foolish to agree with general authorities? (Actually...let's be clear here...prophets and apostles anointed and authorized to determine doctrine. That does not apply to all "general authorities".)

I still have to wonder though...why?

Why would you disagree with general authorities on this matter? If and when I disagree with any given statement or any given idea by a general authority (which has happened, sure), I have a very good reason why. At least many who disagree with general authorities on some subjects, although misguided and not seeing an eternal perspective, have at least a semblance of a well meaning, compassionate, reason behind the thinking.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Is it okay for a grade school student to disagree with his post graduate educated math teacher?

I suppose it depends on the nature and extent of the disagreement.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Of course.  Especially if the math teacher is incorrect.  Granted these instances will be few.

Just out of curiosity, which comment of mine (that disagreed with a GA), did you find offensive?

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6 hours ago, mikbone said:

Of course.  Especially if the math teacher is incorrect.  Granted these instances will be few.

Just out of curiosity, which comment of mine (that disagreed with a GA), did you find offensive?

I wasn't offended. I just thought it problematic for you to say an Apostle of the Lord,is in error on a particular point that is an established belief in the Church, in a work that was commissioned by church authorities and read and approved by the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve at the time, and well supported by a straightforward interpretation of various scriptural passages,  and this with no other justification than you speculatively believe differently and after all, the book is 600 pages, so it isn't like Talmage couldn't have made a mistake.

But, what do I know?

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

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