"it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."


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 "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Do you think this verse could be obsolete because this revelation was given during a time where the Nephites were living the Law of Moses. I always wondered if there something to that argument. Your thoughts are much appreciated. 

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20 minutes ago, Queolby said:

 "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Do you think this verse could be obsolete because this revelation was given during a time where the Nephites were living the Law of Moses. I always wondered if there something to that argument. Your thoughts are much appreciated. 

I do not think so since Moroni taught the same thing in Moroni 10:32-33: "...if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ..."

 

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Not outdated, but often misunderstood.  Read this: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng

"The prophet Nephi made an important contribution to our understanding of God’s grace when he declared, “We labor diligently … to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.31

However, wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase “after all we can do.” We must understand that “after” does not equal “because.”

We are not saved “because” of all that we can do. Have any of us done all that we can do? Does God wait until we’ve expended every effort before He will intervene in our lives with His saving grace?

Many people feel discouraged because they constantly fall short. They know firsthand that “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”32 They raise their voices with Nephi in proclaiming, “My soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.”33

am certain Nephi knew that the Savior’s grace allows and enables us to overcome sin.34 This is why Nephi labored so diligently to persuade his children and brethren “to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God.”35

After all, that is what we can do! And that is our task in mortality!"

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5 hours ago, Queolby said:

 "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Do you think this verse could be obsolete because this revelation was given during a time where the Nephites were living the Law of Moses. I always wondered if there something to that argument. Your thoughts are much appreciated. 

What is all that one can do?

In the mind of a Baptist this phrase is more true than many other religions.

In some other religions they merely do rote ceremonies and say that this will assure them salvation, but a Baptist does not believe works can save them.

Thus, ONLY Grace can save someone, and that grace is sufficient to save any who COME UNTO the Lord.  However, this requires that an individual DOES something.  When they have heard the call of the Lord they must respond.

This means that they MUST accept this Grace.  They have a choice, they can accept or they can refuse, and if they refuse than they have not done what they could.

Thus, they MUST believe, and when they believe and have accepted the Lord's sacrifice their heart will be turned and they will be changed into those who truly follow the Lord, for their heart no longer will be set on the things of the world, but on the things the Lord wills.

What the can one do?

They can choose to believe and accept the Grace of the Lord, and in fact, one may say from a Baptist point of view that this is ALL they can do.

They are incapable of anything else...for none can save themselves.  It is ONLY by grace one is saved, by the Mercy of the Lord.

The LDS believe something similar, but where as Baptist believe that one who has had their heart turned to the Lord by grace will have this manifested easily by their actions as they no longer desire to do evil, the LDS believe that it is by works that we manifest our belief instead.

They understand these verses...

Quote

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

As meaning that we show our FAITH through our works, rather than our Faith being manifested because our works show that we have had that change or turn of heart.

Hopefully that makes sense.

In either instance though, depending on how one believes, one MUST do all they can (whether it is simply to merely accept the Lord and his grace by choice, or whether it is seen to be that we must choose to do works and actions of our own accord to show that we have faith) before they can be saved, thus it still stands today as relevant.

One MUST take action of a sort under any of the belief systems...for without at least one action to accept the Grace and Mercy of the Lord, most Christian religions say we cannot be saved (though I think the Unitarian belief has this idea that everyone goes to heaven and no one goes to hell...which ascribes no effort for anyone).

In fact the Lord himself states...

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6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Which to me indicates that we MUST follow the LORD to be saved.

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If I understood it when I first heard it, I believe that, when John Taylor first translated that verse into French and/or German (and/or other languages he translated the BoM into), he rendered that verse something like "It is by grace we are saved, "in spite of" all we can do." The idea that I get from this verse is one of, even after all you can ever hope to do, it will still be by grace that you are saved. Some of this might be influenced by King Benjamin as he talked about, even if you could serve God with perfect zeal for your entire life, yet you would be unprofitable and need God's grace. There could also be some influence from Abinadi as he asked Noah's priests if the Law was sufficient for salvation, and he asserted that even perfect obedience to the law was not. I don't think the verse is obsolete. I think that we are still saved by grace, and I think that we are required to do certain things to qualify for salvation/exaltation (have faith and repent and receive ordinances and be obedient).

Edited by MrShorty
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17 hours ago, Queolby said:

 "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Do you think this verse could be obsolete because this revelation was given during a time where the Nephites were living the Law of Moses. I always wondered if there something to that argument. Your thoughts are much appreciated. 

This is absolutely not obsolete; it is just as pertinent now as it ever was.  Perhaps if we flip the two phrases a more appropriate interpretation will become clear:

"after all we can do, it is by grace that we are saved"

As should be more apparent, this passage indicates that even after all we can do it is still by grace that we are saved.  Now let us put this understanding back into the full context of the verse from which it comes:

Quote

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
(2 Ne. 2:23)

So why do we labor so diligently to persuade our children and our brethren to believe in Christ?  Because at the end of the day, after everything we can do, it is still by the grace of God that we are saved.  In context, this passage is actually indicative that Nephi was far ahead of his time in the sense that he saw beyond the law of Moses and looked forward to Christ.

Edited by person0
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In my personal study this morning, due to this conversation, here is an application in the Book of Mormon of the phrase "after all we can do," which qualifies a person for the mercy, merits, love, and grace of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

Let me begin with a brief history, summary, of the verse being highlighted. We have understanding between two civilizations (although they were actually multiple): Nephites and Lamanites. The Lamanites are often described as idolatrous, lazy, murders, idle, and many other things. Ammon and his brethren decide to teach the Lamanites and find great success among King Lamoni people, which eventually converts the King of the surrounding lands. The Lamanites converted and then call themselves the Anti-Nephi-Lehis. When the King dies, his son is appointed who is the brother of Lamoni, as King and they recognize a preparation of war happening by those they called brothers -- other Lamanites. They "counseled" together to come up with how they would do this knowing they did not want to shed the blood of any of their brothers due coming to the knowledge of their wicked traditions and past sins. Here is the King's statement from Alma 24: 11:

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And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain— (emphasis mine)

The King continues:

Quote

Now, my best beloved brethren, since God hath taken away our stains, and our swords have become bright, then let us stain our swords no more with the blood of our brethren. (emphasis mine)

And then the understanding of covenant and commitment:

Quote

And now, my brethren, if our brethren seek to destroy us, behold, we will hide away our swords, yea, even we will bury them deep in the earth, that they may be kept bright, as a testimony that we have never used them, at the last day; and if our brethren destroy us, behold, we shall ago to our God and shall be saved. (emphasis mine)

And then the witness of their testimony:

Quote

And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they never would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and covenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would give up their own lives; and rather than take away from a brother they would give unto him; and rather than spend their days in idleness they would labor abundantly with their hands. (emphasis mine)

There are clearly sins which -- if repeated -- upon knowing and covenanting with God is not doing "all we can do" (Top Three):

1) Murder

2) Adultery

3) Fornication

All we can do is, in a sense, another way of saying being "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" till the end.

Edited by Anddenex
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On 1/7/2019 at 3:31 PM, Queolby said:

 "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Do you think this verse could be obsolete because this revelation was given during a time where the Nephites were living the Law of Moses. I always wondered if there something to that argument. Your thoughts are much appreciated. 

There are two interpretations of this verse which believe are equally true and valid.

1) Nephi labored diligently in the hope of persuading his people to realize that even if they were to spend every waking moment of their in sincere and consistent effort to please God, and obtain his salvation, by striving earnestly to be good people it wouldn’t be good enough. No matter how hard men might try to be good, even by applying their most conscientious efforts, it won’t be enough to save them. The most fundamental and essential thing a man must do if he wants to be truly good, and be saved, is to first have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and then repent of his sins and be reconciled to God (receive his forgiveness) through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. In the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin eloquently elucidates a very similar doctrine:

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice , and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. (Mosiah 2)

2) God’s grace truly is able to save and enable us to grow spiritually, but only if we do all we can do to not frustrate the outpouring of God’s grace upon us. It’s another way of expressing the same concept Paul teaches in Philippinans 3...

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but  I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3)

Edited by Jersey Boy
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On 1/7/2019 at 3:31 PM, Queolby said:

 "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Do you think this verse could be obsolete because this revelation was given during a time where the Nephites were living the Law of Moses. I always wondered if there something to that argument. Your thoughts are much appreciated. 

The Law of Moses argument doesn’t work because the Book of Mormon itself, in no uncertain terms, says it doesn’t work. The Nephites didn’t believe mere obedience to the lesser divine law of Moses could save them...

And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men aree cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered. (2 Nephi 2)

And in case it escaped your notice, in the very same chapter of the Book of Mormon from which you quote, the prophet Nephi also shoots the law of Moses idea down:

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

 

Edited by Jersey Boy
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