1000 years in hell??


dahlia
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3 hours ago, Grunt said:

It gets confusing.  I had a long talk with my Stake President today about other confusing things I've read.   It's tough.

Technically Spirit Prison is Hell (not sure why others aren't telling you that), however, when people speak of Hell, they are usually thinking of what would most closely relate to Outer Darkness.

Every person who dies without being baptized by proper authority goes to Hell (Spirit Prison) until, at minimum, their baptism is complete and they accept it in sincerity.  Only those who are considered Sons of Perdition will remain in Hell (Outer Darkness) for all eternity.

The problem originates from the fact that there are 4 biblical words translated to 'hell' in English: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.  Although these words represent different things, their common English translation, 'Hell', is generally recognized in mainstream society as the eternal abode of Satan and the wicked.

Sheol - (Hebrew) - The abode of departed spirits (Including both prison and paradise).

Gehenna - (Greek) - The Valley of Hinnom. An actual geographical location south of Jerusalem.  It eventually became the place for disposing and burning garbage and thus was used as a symbol of torment after death.  It is from Gehenna that imagery of fire and brimstone originates.

Hades - (Greek) - The Greek equivalent of Sheol.  It is the most well known of the 4 translated words. What is not well known (and modern pop-culture usage always leaves out) is that Hades always included more than one realm, and contained the afterlife for both the good and evil.

Tartarus - (Greek) - The deepest pit, far below Hades, used as a dungeon where the wicked are punished.  This word is only used a single time in the Bible 2 Peter 2:4.  Interestingly, it is used to describe the place where Satan and his followers were cast after their rebellion.  Hence, this is the only passage in the Bible that appropriately represents what we often refer to as Outer Darkness, being the eternal abode only of the Devil, his angels, and the Sons of Perdition.

It is extremely interesting to note that there is not a single biblical passage that indicates the wicked are sent to Tartarus upon death or judgement.  I personally find this truth to be an additional witness to the Restored Gospel, and the doctrine of the three Kingdoms of Glory.  Additionally, it is easy to see how, with the combined contextualization of these words, that Catholics would come up with the concept of Purgatory.

I hope this is helpful!  I did a very thorough study regarding the 4 words translated as hell while serving my mission; understanding this adds valuable strength to my testimony of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Edited by person0
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23 minutes ago, person0 said:

Every person who dies without being baptized by proper authority goes to Hell (Spirit Prison) until, at minimum, their baptism is complete and they accept it in sincerity.  Only those who are considered Sons of Perdition will remain in Hell (Outer Darkness) for all eternity.

I have oft wondered over this. My opinion is that the basically righteous in mortality go to Paradise whether they were baptized or not. I'm not sure the dividing line is baptism by proper authority. Can you provide a scripture?

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56 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have oft wondered over this. My opinion is that the basically righteous in mortality go to Paradise whether they were baptized or not. I'm not sure the dividing line is baptism by proper authority. Can you provide a scripture?

Excellent question.  In addition to the resources linked in my post above, please take note of D&C 138:29-34, which states:

Quote

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

(emphasis added)

Anyone who has not received baptism by the proper authority, by definition, dies in their sins; this includes those who would generally be considered good people.  Additionally, the unbaptized can fall into one of two categories, those 'without a knowledge of the truth' (meaning the Restored Gospel), or those 'having rejected the prophets' (including Joseph Smith et al.).  Hence, all who are not baptized by proper authority in mortality wait in Spirit Prison until their baptism is performed vicariously.

Additional Resources:

LDS.org Topics - Hell

LDS.org Topics - Spirit World

Gospel Principles - CH 41 - The Postmortal Spirit World

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It is important to note that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the finished state of the gospel. President Nelson just recently said we are still in the beginning of the Restoration. Also, The Church of the Firstborn is the church of the Celestial Kingdom and we are not in it yet.

Edited by Emmanuel Goldstein
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1 hour ago, person0 said:

Excellent question.  In addition to the resources linked in my post above, please take note of D&C 138:29-34, which states:

Anyone who has not received baptism by the proper authority, by definition, dies in their sins; this includes those who would generally be considered good people.  Additionally, the unbaptized can fall into one of two categories, those 'without a knowledge of the truth' (meaning the Restored Gospel), or those 'having rejected the prophets' (including Joseph Smith et al.).  Hence, all who are not baptized by proper authority in mortality wait in Spirit Prison until their baptism is performed vicariously.

Additional Resources:

LDS.org Topics - Hell

LDS.org Topics - Spirit World

Gospel Principles - CH 41 - The Postmortal Spirit World

Hum...I don't know if I agree. I have a different interpretation. I read section 138 in light of a need to separate the wicked from the righteous. Much like on our earth, we separate the wicked into prisons away from the righteous who are free. I see this as the same over on the other side. There are indeed righteous people who belong to other faiths or no faith at all. There really isn't a need to separate someone who is trying to do what they believe is righteous and do good works and throw them into torment just because they aren't baptized at that point. To the thief on the cross Jesus declared he would go to Paradise. His penalty for sin is death of which he paid. His acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ at that moment was the deciding factor.

Reading section 138 I am left to wonder why Christ appears in paradise to teach them his gospel-

"19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance."

If they already we're all baptized there isn't a need to teach them to repent and be baptized. It is in this light I read verse-

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

The two groups spoken of here, the first being those who were in paradise who died not knowing the truth but had Christ appear to them to be taught, and two, the wicked who are in prison because they rejected the truth but have missionaries commissioned to teach them there because Christ couldn't go because of their wickedness in rejecting the truth.

A person who dies without knowing the truth cannot be judged by law. In the days of Noah the wicked all perished in the flood and we're shut up in the prison to be in torment because of their rejection of the gospel.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...I don't know if I agree. I have a different interpretation. . .

There are various things in your statement that are contradictory to the teachings of the Church and its Prophets and Apostles.  Please read the articles linked in my previous post under 'Additional Information'; they make it clear that the interpretation I represented is accurate to the teachings of the Church.  Additionally, the screenshot below is formatted from the New Testament Seminary Teacher Manual, which provides additional clarification.

image.thumb.png.8c168f63f461184dbff004f5902f7587.png

The passage below is found in the Gospel Principles manual linked in my previous post:

image.png.934ca830a2d18343b221ded09f4592c8.png

Whether you are unwilling to accept the interpretation given to us by the Church and its leaders is your choice, but at least those reading this thread will have ample evidence that I have taught the true doctrine espoused by the Church on this matter.

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

There are various things in your statement that are contradictory to the teachings of the Church and its Prophets and Apostles.  Please read the articles linked in my previous post under 'Additional Information'; they make it clear that the interpretation I represented is accurate to the teachings of the Church.  Additionally, the screenshot below is formatted from the New Testament Seminary Teacher Manual, which provides additional clarification.

image.thumb.png.8c168f63f461184dbff004f5902f7587.png

The passage below is found in the Gospel Principles manual linked in my previous post:

image.png.934ca830a2d18343b221ded09f4592c8.png

Whether you are unwilling to accept the interpretation given to us by the Church and its leaders is your choice, but at least those reading this thread will have ample evidence that I have taught the true doctrine espoused by the Church on this matter.

Well, certainly opinion abounds. It's an interesting story which carries rich symbolism. On the left hand is the wicked malefactor who takes upon the role of Satan tempting him and railing the Savior to save themselves. On the right hand is the sinner who recognizes Christ and submits his will to him just as Christ gave his will to the Father. Thus, Christ saves those on the right hand but not the wicked on the left.

It's interesting that paradise as used here is the place where Christ himself will be- that they will dwell together in the same place in the here after. Christ has the ability to fogive whom he will. Now, of course he still must be baptized but baptism is not a requirement to be saved into Paradise as it is not heaven but rather a go between. 

The question still remains- why did Christ appear in paradise and teach them the gospel of repentance and baptism?

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16 hours ago, Grunt said:

Where do you see that?  Everything I've seen says "Spirit Prison".

Church's teachings regarding hell:

Quote

In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the Resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76:84–85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9:10–12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6:28; Moro. 8:13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19:4–12, which defines eternal and endless punishment. (emphasis mine)

In this sense, Rob is correct. Upon death the sons and daughters of God will enter one of two places: spirit prison (hell) or paradise (which can be described as a type of heaven). The difference though Rob carries his thoughts toward a heaven/hell dichotomy, which isn't supported by modern teachings. He will provide his own support, which is fine, but it isn't supported by modern revelation.

EDIT: I see @person0 beat me to the clarification.

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15 hours ago, person0 said:

Technically Spirit Prison is Hell (not sure why others aren't telling you that),

Because Rob usually doesn't mean what you think he means when he says anything about the afterlife.

Quote

however, when people speak of Hell, they are usually thinking of what would most closely relate to Outer Darkness.

Do you believe he is saying the same thing you are?  From his earlier posts, no.

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:19 PM, dahlia said:

I was looking for something else (as usual) and came upon an article in 'Ask Gramps' about what happens if your kids can't join you in the eternities. In the response was, "If the children of the faithful couples, whose marriages remain in force for the eternities, stray from the gospel and live recreant lives, those children will not participate in the first resurrection, but will be remanded to the custody of Satan for a thousand years." 

What? But what if they were good people, but just decided not to stay in the church?

And what about adult children of converts, who decide not to convert themselves? I understand there is probably a problem about them joining you in the Celestial Kingdom, but 1000 yrs w/Satan? 

I thought we were supposed to respect people of other faiths? It's kinda hard to say, "I respect you being a Methodist, but you're going to spend 1000 years with Satan. Sorry." 

 

In some personal conversations I have had with my father he said one thing that stood out to me that, in my minds eye, relates to your questions. He said, "As I convert, I didn't notice how my education and learning was affecting my ability to understand and accept certain gospel principles. Because of this I struggled where other members who grew up learning these truths did not."

In our life, there is this concept (temporal theory) of what or how a person defines good. I think @unixknight covered it pretty well. If we are defining "good" as the world defines "good" then we will have questions like these that arise. If we understand, and seek to truly understand how God defines "good" then the answer becomes more plain and more clear. Remember, our Savior -- who was perfect -- did not define himself as "good" when he was called "Good Master." Our Savior's response was, "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

So the question we can ask ourselves, if our Savior who was perfect (which we easily would call good) did not define himself as good, are we attributing the word "good" correctly when it comes to the sons and daughters of God in the eternities? The statement our Savior makes after this is all the more important, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

If we want to enter where God dwells, and not experience anything else (due to our choice, our moral agency), then we had better keep the commandments. If we do not keep the commandments, then we will receive our reward after this life. There are a lot of people who think they are "good" (according to an earthly definition they are good) who fornicate, and think it is OK because they aren't hurting anyone else. Fornication is not good, and does not keep one within a "good" status. We receive what we chose to receive, nothing unjust or wrong. We merit what we chose to merit.

What? But what if they were good people, but just decided not to stay in the church?

If a person is "good" as defined by temporal definitions then this doesn't really have any affect in the afterlife. God is the ultimate judge, and he is the one that defines what is "good" -- not us humans. All that is good come from God, are these individuals following God, his truth, his way, his life? If not, then they cannot feel entitled to a blessing they have not merited. They can only accept the outcome of their personal decisions. If they choose not to stay in the Church, by this alone, they have removed "good" from their lives. They have chosen to reject the commandments and will pay the price of their decision. The Lord God doesn't carry the modern political theory "Everyone is a winner." We receive according to the decisions of our moral agency in this life.

And what about adult children of converts, who decide not to convert themselves? I understand there is probably a problem about them joining you in the Celestial Kingdom, but 1000 yrs w/Satan? 

I would say @Just_A_Guy provided the clarification required. If an adult child of an adult convert merits a 1000 years with Satan (Telestial glory), this means they chose to live a life that merited such. This is sad, but we shouldn't be surprised when people choose to live a life that merits this in the afterlife. God's ways are just and merciful. If they did not live a life that would merit such, then they will not receive such. In other words they lived at least a Terrestrial life, or a life worthy of a Terrestrial glory.

I thought we were supposed to respect people of other faiths? It's kinda hard to say, "I respect you being a Methodist, but you're going to spend 1000 years with Satan. Sorry." 

I would think there is some irony though to the last statement, but let's begin with the first. To respect another person's agency doesn't mean that consequences are removed. We respect other people's agency to believe or disbelieve. We respect other people's agency to steal. This doesn't mean that if I respect them that we will remove the consequence of a felony from them (unless of course they are a celebrity ;) ). The Lord respects, or better said honors the moral agency of his children, but respect and honor doesn't remove consequences of our decisions.

Now, it appears our belief is actually more merciful and just than Christian beliefs regarding "Mormons." I have been told many times, although I am a "good" person by the definition of this world, because I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I will spend an "eternity" (not just a thousand years) with Satan in hell. It appears our belief, the gospel of Jesus Christ is more merciful than Christian beliefs' pertaining to our Church. So the irony is not lost on me.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Church's teachings regarding hell:

In this sense, Rob is correct. Upon death the sons and daughters of God will enter one of two places: spirit prison (hell) or paradise (which can be described as a type of heaven). The difference though Rob carries his thoughts toward a heaven/hell dichotomy, which isn't supported by modern teachings. He will provide his own support, which is fine, but it isn't supported by modern revelation.

EDIT: I see @person0 beat me to the clarification.

I carry my thoughts in the direction the Lord speaks. Does he not have only two hands? The righteous on the right and the wicked on the left? Is there not but just the sheep he keeps or the goats he cast aside? Is it false there be just wheat who inherit Celestial glory or tares to be burned in everlasting fire? All of these are teachings by Jesus Christ. I am not the author, He is.

Now, in relevance to the topic at hand, Joseph saw his brother Alvin in heaven. He was told that God will judge those who didn't have the opportunity to accept by the desire of their hearts. In the Book of Mormon we read of those who depart into spirit prison at death-

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
            14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. (Alma 40:13-14)

So I ask- Did Alvin fit this criteria of those who go to hell after death?

1. Evil and wicked

2. Have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord

3.Chose evil works rather than good

4.Spirit of the devil entered in and took possession of their soul

5. Because of their iniquity were led down captive by the devil

6. In a state of awful fear looking for the wrath and fiery indignation of God upon them.

This is the criteria for those who are to be sent to hell at death. So, was Alvin sent here? Did he fit the criteria?

 

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6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

All of these are teachings by Jesus Christ. I am not the author, He is.

As I have clarified before it is not the teaching of Jesus Christ which are at odds, it is your interpretation that is at odds with modern revelation and interpretation as revealed through Christ servants the prophets.

The ability to come up with a scripture, or a thought, or a question doesn't add any value if the thought in relation to scripture contradicts what the Lord has revealed through His servants the prophets.

Your response with regards to modern revelation (to @person0 given information), as revealed by Christ's prophets, "Well, certainly opinion abounds," is evidence that your interpretation contradicts His servants.

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30 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Now, it appears our belief is actually more merciful and just than Christian beliefs regarding "Mormons." I have been told many times, although I am a "good" person by the definition of this world, because I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I will spend an "eternity" (not just a thousand years) with Satan in hell. It appears our belief, the gospel of Jesus Christ is more merciful than Christian beliefs' pertaining to our Church. So the irony is not lost on me.

Yes, Yes.  1000 times (or 1000 years) yes.

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Just now, Anddenex said:

As I have clarified before it is not the teaching of Jesus Christ which are at odds, it is your interpretation that is at odds with modern revelation and interpretation as revealed through Christ servants the prophets.

The ability to come up with a scripture, or a thought, or a question doesn't add any value if the thought in relation to scripture contradicts what the Lord has revealed through His servants the prophets.

Your response with regards to modern revelation (to @person0 given information), as revealed by Christ's prophets, "Well, certainly opinion abounds," is evidence that your interpretation contradicts His servants.

And if we contradict Christ himself? Just a quick quiz- read section 101 verses-

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
            66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.

What is your interpretation here of who the wheat are? What they receive? And, who the tares are? What they receive? And, is there anyone else that got left out?

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As much as we talk about heaven or hell - it would appear that none of us know very much about either.  The classic definition of hell is "Death".  This can include being subject to death.  With the Fall of Man all "righteous" spiritual children of G-d became subject to death.  There are two deaths.  The first is the physical death of the body where spirits are separated from a physical body.  If someone were to think about this in any detail they would realize that until we were born into mortality we suffered the first death which by definition is a "kind" of Hell - even though we existed in the presents of G-d the Father.  They would also realize that we all suffer Death or the Hell of physical death.

The second Death is spiritual death.  We are to understand that this means separation from G-d or more specifically the spirit of G-d and the spirit of Christ.  With the Fall of Man - all the righteous spirits of G-d were introduced to the second death or spiritual death.  We remain in this state until be become "Born Again - Saints of G-d".  The Born Again refers to a spiritual rebirth that is initiated or enabled with Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost - but remember that to be initiated by ordinance and covenant there must be a previous act of Faith in Jesus Christ and Repentance. 

I believe and it is logical to me that when we have been Born Again of the spirit and given the Gift of the Holy Ghost - we are no longer suffer from the Second Death or Hell.  If this is accomplished in this life - we will remain delivered from spiritual death when we enter the spirit rheum - thus immediately enter spiritual paradise.  Others may be delivered from spirit prison or spiritual hell through Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance and the ordinance of Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Finely when we are resurrected we are delivered eternally from the first Death and our spirits become inseparable from our bodies and we are for ever free from the first death (or Hell).

 

There is something else that many associate with Hell - and that is being subject to Satan or the influence of Satan.  Sometimes this is called the "Darkness" of Hell and is represented symbolically in the scriptures as Darkness and Night as opposed to Light and Day.  The power to distinguish and choose between light and darkness or eternal life and hell is called "Agency".  We were first introduced to light and darkness in "The Beginning" while in the pre-existence where we exercised agency to become children of light or children of darkness.  Those that "Kept" their first estate and exercised Agency to choose light were enabled to become mortal.  At what is called "The Final Judgement" we will complete or Agency and choose even greater light or a kind or type of darkness.  Those that choose the greater light - even the light of G-d become resurrected beings of light - even as G-d the Father.

 

The Traveler

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5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And if we contradict Christ himself? Just a quick quiz- read section 101 verses-

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
            66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.

What is your interpretation here of who the wheat are? What they receive? And, who the tares are? What they receive? And, is there anyone else that got left out?

Contradict Christ himself, or our interpretation contradicts Christ and His servants the prophets and apostles? All scriptures are interwoven that pertain to the same subject. A person may say, Christ himself said, "If I ask, I will recieve, and I asked and I did not receive." and provide scriptural evidence for this statement, but they are forgetting where Christ also said, "if we ask not amiss" (and many other statements and conditions added to "if we ask we will receive."

My interpretation follows the Lord's servants. Rob, it is not to offend, but you are not one of them. So you can provide me any and all your interpretations, but if they contradict what Christ's servants have provided in relation to Christ's words, then I know which side I choose, if I have not as yet had a spiritual witness on either matter. 

God has declared there are three degrees of glory, but he doesn't need more than two hands to declare this.

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Contradict Christ himself, or our interpretation contradicts Christ and His servants the prophets and apostles? All scriptures are interwoven that pertain to the same subject. A person may say, Christ himself said, "If I ask, I will recieve, and I asked and I did not receive." and provide scriptural evidence for this statement, but they are forgetting where Christ also said, "if we ask not amiss" (and many other statements and conditions added to "if we ask we will receive."

My interpretation follows the Lord's servants. Rob, it is not to offend, but you are not one of them. So you can provide me any and all your interpretations, but if they contradict what Christ's servants have provided in relation to Christ's words, then I know which side I choose, if I have not as yet had a spiritual witness on either matter. 

God has declared there are three degrees of glory, but he doesn't need more than two hands to declare this.

So, rather than answer my question you default to the standard "you don't know what you are talking about". I really would be interested in your interpretation of those verses. It's not a hard thing. It spells it right out. I'm all ears.

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

As much as we talk about heaven or hell - it would appear that none of us know very much about either.  The classic definition of hell is "Death".  This can include being subject to death.  With the Fall of Man all "righteous" spiritual children of G-d became subject to death.  There are two deaths.  The first is the physical death of the body where spirits are separated from a physical body.  If someone were to think about this in any detail they would realize that until we were born into mortality we suffered the first death which by definition is a "kind" of Hell - even though we existed in the presents of G-d the Father.  They would also realize that we all suffer Death or the Hell of physical death.

The second Death is spiritual death.  We are to understand that this means separation from G-d or more specifically the spirit of G-d and the spirit of Christ.  With the Fall of Man - all the righteous spirits of G-d were introduced to the second death or spiritual death.  We remain in this state until be become "Born Again - Saints of G-d".  The Born Again refers to a spiritual rebirth that is initiated or enabled with Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost - but remember that to be initiated by ordinance and covenant there must be a previous act of Faith in Jesus Christ and Repentance. 

I believe and it is logical to me that when we have been Born Again of the spirit and given the Gift of the Holy Ghost - we are no longer suffer from the Second Death or Hell.  If this is accomplished in this life - we will remain delivered from spiritual death when we enter the spirit rheum - thus immediately enter spiritual paradise.  Others may be delivered from spirit prison or spiritual hell through Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance and the ordinance of Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Finely when we are resurrected we are delivered eternally from the first Death and our spirits become inseparable from our bodies and we are for ever free from the first death (or Hell).

 

There is something else that many associate with Hell - and that is being subject to Satan or the influence of Satan.  Sometimes this is called the "Darkness" of Hell and is represented symbolically in the scriptures as Darkness and Night as opposed to Light and Day.  The power to distinguish and choose between light and darkness or eternal life and hell is called "Agency".  We were first introduced to light and darkness in "The Beginning" while in the pre-existence where we exercised agency to become children of light or children of darkness.  Those that "Kept" their first estate and exercised Agency to choose light were enabled to become mortal.  At what is called "The Final Judgement" we will complete or Agency and choose even greater light or a kind or type of darkness.  Those that choose the greater light - even the light of G-d become resurrected beings of light - even as G-d the Father.

 

The Traveler

We shouldn't conflate the "second death" language with "hell" or "spiritual death" as the second death in scripture has a unique and separate meaning.

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

So you can provide me any and all your interpretations, but if they contradict what Christ's servants have provided in relation to Christ's words

As an aside: I wonder if @Rob Osborn reins in his extra-revelatory opinions when called to give a talk.  In a similar situation, being outside the mainstream of revealed truth, I would probably keep most of those types of things in as a pearls before swine kind of thing, except with family and close friends.  I do make a sincere effort to always give Rob the benefit of the doubt; in my time on this forum there are often posts of his that I am the only person that 'likes' them.

That said, we gotta call you out Rob.  I mean, you essentially said that what Joseph Smith taught regarding the Saviors words to the thief on the cross are just opinion, despite the fact that it has been established and canonized as true doctrine by the prophets and apostles who followed.  Joseph Smith was entitled to have opinions, but in this case that is really pushing it!  I am truly baffled at how many members of the Church in general don't accept many of the inspired teachings of those whom they claim to accept as the Lord's Anointed.  Anyway, Rob, I am grateful that you have a testimony of the Restored Gospel; despite your disagreement with many of the restored teachings.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

We shouldn't conflate the "second death" language with "hell" or "spiritual death" as the second death in scripture has a unique and separate meaning.

????  Death and Hell are two sides of the same coin in scripture.  And as long as we are referencing scripture - According to the Book of Revelation - all shall be delivered from death and hell.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, rather than answer my question you default to the standard "you don't know what you are talking about". I really would be interested in your interpretation of those verses. It's not a hard thing. It spells it right out. I'm all ears.

I will respond, but I wasn't saying "you don't know what you are talking about." I will open a new thread. I believe you sincerely believe what you profess; I am just not seeing the accuracy in light of revealed word through the Lord's servants.

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23 minutes ago, person0 said:

As an aside: I wonder if @Rob Osborn reins in his extra-revelatory opinions when called to give a talk.  In a similar situation, being outside the mainstream of revealed truth, I would probably keep most of those types of things in as a pearls before swine kind of thing, except with family and close friends.  I do make a sincere effort to always give Rob the benefit of the doubt; in my time on this forum there are often posts of his that I am the only person that 'likes' them.

That said, we gotta call you out Rob.  I mean, you essentially said that what Joseph Smith taught regarding the Saviors words to the thief on the cross are just opinion, despite the fact that it has been established and canonized as true doctrine by the prophets and apostles who followed.  Joseph Smith was entitled to have opinions, but in this case that is really pushing it!  I am truly baffled at how many members of the Church in general don't accept many of the inspired teachings of those whom they claim to accept as the Lord's Anointed.  Anyway, Rob, I am grateful that you have a testimony of the Restored Gospel; despite your disagreement with many of the restored teachings.

Thanks. My belief concerning the thief on the cross stems from what the scripture actually says not what we want to shoehorn it to mean to fit our own paradigms. On the one hand we want to relegate the thief to hell as a wicked sinner yet on the other forgive the women caught in adultery immediately as Christ did. It's like a double standard. We don't want to believe Christ has the power to forgive a thief and so we make the thief out to be a murdering wicked sinner so that we are justified in saying he went to hell after his death on the cross. And, to top it off, we take Christ's words out of context completely to say he actually meant the opposite (paradise here actually meaning hell).

I don't buy any of it. It's all built on misunderstandings and disregarding Christ's ability to forgive. In our paradigm we have this hazy foggy line on one hand of who goes to hell at death and yet on the other we claim it's a hard and easily discerned line. And so, I prove this point- yes, a wicked murderer who loves and revels in wickedness will go to hell upon death. But, we don't have these same reservations in regards to say an 11 year old Israeli girl who is of the Jewish faith and dies of cancer at that age. We don't say she's going to hell.

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29 minutes ago, Traveler said:

????  Death and Hell are two sides of the same coin in scripture.  And as long as we are referencing scripture - According to the Book of Revelation - all shall be delivered from death and hell.

 

The Traveler

Yes, but the "second death" is a second spiritual death and only those not saved at the last great day of judgment suffer that demise.

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19 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I will respond, but I wasn't saying "you don't know what you are talking about." I will open a new thread. I believe you sincerely believe what you profess; I am just not seeing the accuracy in light of revealed word through the Lord's servants.

Open a new thread. I am happy and willing to chime in.

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