Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses

[Colirio]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I will start a new thread.

[Guest MormonGator]

This thread reminds me that you can be intelligent, devout and passionate-but if you can't find a way to communicate effectively with others, it's all sort of meaningless. 

[Rob Osborn]

23 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This thread reminds me that you can be intelligent, devout and passionate-but if you can't find a way to communicate effectively with others, it's all sort of meaningless. 

This thread reminds me of this verse-

6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (Matthew 7:6)

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This thread reminds me that you can be intelligent, devout and passionate-but if you can't find a way to communicate effectively with others, it's all sort of meaningless. 

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean.

LOL! It's certainly advice that is wasted on the people who need it most! Previous posts on this thread prove my point 100000000%. 

I see this again and again in life. People who are bright, hard working, educated-yet for whatever reason they can't get along with people and they make their lives much more difficult  than it has to be, and no one listens to them. 

And on the flip side, I see people who lazy, average intelligence, not dressed well-yet for whatever reason they get along with people and they are happy, influential, and successful

[Guest MormonGator]

In fairness, I don't know of many people who have the backbone to look inside and say "Maybe I need to fix this or that aspect of my personality." It's a rare trait. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by MormonGator

[Rob Osborn]

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12:11)

[wenglund]

If there is only wheat or tares (weeds), then what does one make of wheat chaff or stubble  or root or blossoms that are to be consumed by fire and furnace?  (Mt 3:12; Lk 3:17; 2 Nephi 15:24; Mosiah 7:29-31); 

What about the other grains to be resurrected? (1 Cor. 15:37)

That BOOM you hear is the mind of a binary thinker (particularly those with "hardened hearts") being exposed to nuanced and non-binary scriptures:

I am just playfully teasing, of course.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 17, 2019 by wenglund

[The Folk Prophet]

18 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

This thread reminds me of this verse-

6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (Matthew 7:6)

Yep, according to you the following are all swine, trampling your "holy" words under their feet:

• zil
• anddenex
• Vort
• Just_a_Guy
• Traveler
• CV75
• estradling75
• MormonGator
• Guest
• anatess2
• wenglend
• Scott
• person0
• Jersey Boy
• Emmanuel Goldstein
• askandanswer
• Edspringer
• Colirio
• Carborendum
• ...etc
• ...etc
• ...(sorry if your name got left off...but there's a lot of posts and a lot of names....)...etc
• ...[your name goes here]...
• ...and, of course...The Folk Prophet

Come on people! Don't be swine! The great and wisdomful Rob has shared his great and wisdomful pearls with you. By not turning your back on the teachings of the prophets and apostles (all, of course...except that one by Elder Holland), and the basic teachings of the church you're being taken captive by the devil and being led by his will down to destruction!

Why will ye not listen to the wisdomfulness of Rob? Ye fools! Ye hardhearted fools!

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

One of the frustrating aspects is we tend to nitpick over frivolous things as a means to mock or degrade others. Anyone who knows me and my thinking knows the context I was using. So, it frustrates me when you chime in as a means to mock. It's childish, we need to get over such things if we are ever going to understand the gospel. I have many things I don't know much about, I know my weaknesses. What I do know is the gospel principles pretty good. I'm sorry if that troubles people.

No one here on the forum knows you - do not feel bad - they do not know me either.  So you can know me a little better - my goal and purpose in posting is to  attempt to get others to consider elements (or in your case - Principles) that they do not seem to understand.  In short it is a "have you considered this?" kind of thing.  Not because something is always right or wrong - just an effort to see what someone does with a different point of view.

I have assumed that, since your point of view is very different from most that you would want others to consider your point of view and that you would understand that as a "principle" of the Gospel or teachings of Christ - in short "The Golden Rule".  So when you imply that the church and others are embroiled in "false doctrine" and need to consider your point of view - I considered that a licence to approach you with the possibility that you are teaching false doctrine.  As you see above - you do not receive such an approach any better than everybody is receiving your methods to espouse your opinion.  Thus the accusation of "nitpick" and being mocked and and childish.  

Now, I will take an opportunity to say directly something I believe - something I do seldom on this forum but when I do I try to preface as I have done here.  I believe it you want something to change - the only possibility for change is yourself.  We have no power but to change ourselves.  And if we keep doing the same thing - we should expect the same results.  One of the other things I personally try to do in a discussion is to respond as long as someone is willing to listen.  So once in a while I will test a notion at extremes - as an engineer I have learned that you will learn more at the limits than at what is expected and usual.  

So the question now - are you as willing to consider and discuss with others meeting the same expectations yourself and consideration of their opinions as you expect them to consider and discuss with the same considerations you give to them.

 

The Traveler 

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

No one here on the forum knows you - do not feel bad - they do not know me either.  So you can know me a little better - my goal and purpose in posting is to  attempt to get others to consider elements (or in your case - Principles" that they do not seem to understand.  In short it is a "have you considered this?" kind of thing.  Not because something is always right or wrong - just an effort to see what someone does with a different point of view.

I have assumed that, since your point of view is very different from most that you would want others to consider your point of view and that you would understand that as a "principle" of the Gospel or teachings of Christ - in short "The Golden Rule".  So when you imply that the church and others are embroiled in "false doctrine" and need to consider your point of view - I considered that a licence to approach you with the possibility that you are teaching false doctrine.  As you see above - you do not receive such an approach any better than everybody is receiving your methods to espouse your opinion.  Thus the accusation of "nitpick" and being mocked and and childish.  

Now, I will take an opportunity to say directly something I believe - something I do seldom on this forum but when I do I try to preface as I have done here.  I believe it you want something to change - the only possibility for change is yourself.  We have no power but to change ourselves.  And if we keep doing the same thing - we should expect the same results.  One of the other things I personally try to do in a discussion is to respond as long as someone is willing to listen.  So once in a while I will test a notion at extremes - as an engineer I have learned that you will learn more at the limits than at what is expected and usual.  

So the question now - are you as willing to consider and discuss with others meeting the same expectations yourself and consideration of their opinions as you expect them to consider and discuss with the same considerations you give to them.

 

The Traveler 

 

That's what we have been doing, discussing. I'm certainly up to other possiblities. It's interesting though that I can point something out and others don't see it and instead read something, completely not in the text, and say I'm wrong. For example, I explained earlier that in the parable of the wheat and the tares the "garners" are temples. I was told I was wrong. And so I go and get scriptures and words of prophets to support this meaning and in the end people just assume I'm a bafoon. As of yet, 5 pages later, I don't think anyone really believes there are just wheat or tares in the world. It's like they don't really believe Jesus. Have you ever seen the video of the invisible gorrilla http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html

We get so fixated on something we don't see something plain as day right in front of us and adamantly deny it. This is one of those things. I honestly think we get so fixated on things we can't see what simple thing is really going on. In the parable it really is true that there are only wheat and tares. But, because of our beliefs in general we don't see it. We keep insisting there is another group or another meaning.

I'm not kidding when I say I have been studying this parable quite diligently for nigh on to 20 years. For the longest time I couldn't see the gorilla. Then one day there it was and everything changed. It all fit in and made sense. And, I know I'm right. Now I am working on finding out how this all fits in together. My reference to people not understanding baptism and it's effects is spot on. But,bits sad that some take it so lightly and make fun of it to me that I'm just not willing to share. So, I hoped to help someone with that "aha!" Moment too but I'm afraid the window shut. I don't take these things lightly. I'm a very serious gospel thinker. I spend most of my waking day contemplating the details. I'm willing to share my knowledge and wisdom, even listen to others input and valuable knowledge and wisdom. Do you understand where I am coming from?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Come on people! Don't be swine! The great and wisdomful Rob has shared his great and wisdomful pearls with you. By not turning your back on the teachings of the prophets and apostles (all, of course...except that one by Elder Holland), and the basic teachings of the church you're being taken captive by the devil and being led by his will down to destruction!

 

Why will ye not listen to the wisdomfulness of Rob? Ye fools! Ye hardhearted fools!

Don't you mean Bob?

I hear he wrote a book called "Death Therapy".  Perhaps it was meant to be "Death Treatise".

Edited January 17, 2019 by Guest

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

That's what we have been doing, discussing. I'm certainly up to other possiblities. It's interesting though that I can point something out and others don't see it and instead read something, completely not in the text, and say I'm wrong. For example, I explained earlier that in the parable of the wheat and the tares the "garners" are temples. I was told I was wrong. And so I go and get scriptures and words of prophets to support this meaning and in the end people just assume I'm a bafoon. As of yet, 5 pages later, I don't think anyone really believes there are just wheat or tares in the world. It's like they don't really believe Jesus. Have you ever seen the video of the invisible gorrilla http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html

We get so fixated on something we don't see something plain as day right in front of us and adamantly deny it. This is one of those things. I honestly think we get so fixated on things we can't see what simple thing is really going on. In the parable it really is true that there are only wheat and tares. But, because of our beliefs in general we don't see it. We keep insisting there is another group or another meaning.

I'm not kidding when I say I have been studying this parable quite diligently for nigh on to 20 years. For the longest time I couldn't see the gorilla. Then one day there it was and everything changed. It all fit in and made sense. And, I know I'm right. Now I am working on finding out how this all fits in together. My reference to people not understanding baptism and it's effects is spot on. But,bits sad that some take it so lightly and make fun of it to me that I'm just not willing to share. So, I hoped to help someone with that "aha!" Moment too but I'm afraid the window shut. I don't take these things lightly. I'm a very serious gospel thinker. I spend most of my waking day contemplating the details. I'm willing to share my knowledge and wisdom, even listen to others input and valuable knowledge and wisdom. Do you understand where I am coming from?

Let us review a couple of points.  Because of the war in heaven we are told that a third part were cast out with Satan.  Not only did the ancient Hebrews not understand the mathematical concept of zero - they did not understand fractions.  This tells us that it was not 1/3 of heaven but rather that during the war in heaven there that the kingdom was divided into 3 parts - one of which was cast out.  The next obvious question is - what were the other two "parts".  If you study scripture and know to look for 3 parts you will find them.

Interestingly the number 3 has "symbolic" meaning in scripture - do you know what that meaning is?  I will help you a little - where is the number 3 used and for what purpose and reason?  Why 3 and not 1, 2 or 4?  In particular where is man divided into 3 parts?  and what is the covenant made with each of the 3 parts?

I will try to help you a little - one of the symbolic references given to one part of heaven is the term "first born".  What is the symbolic meaning of the first born?  Here is a hint - it does not mean the chronological oldest.  The people of ancient Near Eastern kingdoms were divided into three parts - Egypt was one such kingdom.  One part was called "the first born".  In the revelations we have of the pre-existence, G-d says of one part of the population (after Satan and his followers had been cast out) - "These I will make my rulers".   In Alma chapter 13 - we are told that if we were not pre-ordained in the pre-existence that we would not have opportunity to receive the priesthood and the blessings of the priesthood during our mortal probation.  

Now lets go back a little - where was Satan and those that followed him sent to?   Where did they go when they left heaven?  Here is a possible answer - they came to earth and became tareson earth.  Where did the rest of the spirits of heaven end up going?  Here is a possible answer - the came to earth as wheat.  What will happen when the wheat has grown and is ready for harvest?  Note wheat does not grow for most of the season and somehow end up as a tare - likewise something growing as a tare does not end up as wheat.

 

The Traveler 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Let us review a couple of points.  Because of the war in heaven we are told that a third part were cast out with Satan.  Not only did the ancient Hebrews not understand the mathematical concept of zero - they did not understand fractions.  This tells us that it was not 1/3 of heaven but rather that during the war in heaven there that the kingdom was divided into 3 parts - one of which was cast out.  The next obvious question is - what were the other two "parts".  If you study scripture and know to look for 3 parts you will find them.

Interestingly the number 3 has "symbolic" meaning in scripture - do you know what that meaning is?  I will help you a little - where is the number 3 used and for what purpose and reason?  Why 3 and not 1, 2 or 4?  In particular where is man divided into 3 parts?  and what is the covenant made with each of the 3 parts?

I will try to help you a little - one of the symbolic references given to one part of heaven is the term "first born".  What is the symbolic meaning of the first born?  Here is a hint - it does not mean the chronological oldest.  The people of ancient Near Eastern kingdoms were divided into three parts - Egypt was one such kingdom.  One part was called "the first born".  In the revelations we have of the pre-existence, G-d says of one part of the population (after Satan and his followers had been cast out) - "These I will make my rulers".   In Alma chapter 13 - we are told that if we were not pre-ordained in the pre-existence that we would not have opportunity to receive the priesthood and the blessings of the priesthood during our mortal probation.  

Now lets go back a little - where was Satan and those that followed him sent to?   Where did they go when they left heaven?  Here is a possible answer - they came to earth and became tareson earth.  Where did the rest of the spirits of heaven end up going?  Here is a possible answer - the came to earth as wheat.  What will happen when the wheat has grown and is ready for harvest?  Note wheat does not grow for most of the season and somehow end up as a tare - likewise something growing as a tare does not end up as wheat.

 

The Traveler 

All good points. The 1/3 bit is a topic all by itself and would be fun to discuss. I think the main point is that in the end all those Christ saves are all part of his one fold. They have all come in by the same gate and followed the same path. They all end up alike at harvest. All their saving ordinances and covenants are in order and obedience has been shown. It is only this type of person that can be saved. We should be viewing the parable of the wheat and tares as all of the wheat are "all" those Christ saves from perdition. There isn't some other group. There is only one shepherd and only one fold- only one kingdom and it is Christ's and Christ is Father's. All the saved become sons and daughters and heirs to all that God has.

[Jersey Boy]

20 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yep, according to you the following are all swine, trampling your "holy" words under their feet:

• zil
• anddenex
• Vort
• Just_a_Guy
• Traveler
• CV75
• estradling75
• MormonGator
• Guest
• anatess2
• wenglend
• Scott
• person0
• Jersey Boy
• Emmanuel Goldstein
• askandanswer
• Edspringer
• Colirio
• Carborendum
• ...etc
• ...etc
• ...(sorry if your name got left off...but there's a lot of posts and a lot of names....)...etc
• ...[your name goes here]...
• ...and, of course...The Folk Prophet

Come on people! Don't be swine! The great and wisdomful Rob has shared his great and wisdomful pearls with you. By not turning your back on the teachings of the prophets and apostles (all, of course...except that one by Elder Holland), and the basic teachings of the church you're being taken captive by the devil and being led by his will down to destruction!

Why will ye not listen to the wisdomfulness of Rob? Ye fools! Ye hardhearted fools!

Believe it or not, Rob is actually onto something that’s deeply profound and true, which is why he’s so bold and adamant when he defends his position. What he’s discovered is so beautiful and wonderful that he can’t imagine having to let it go.

The only problem is that while what he has discovered does have a strong element of truth that’s not widely understood and therefore nor generally talked about in today’s Church, the sad reality that he’s taken that vein of great truth he’s discovered way too far, to the point that he’s often at odds with the scriptures and the teachings of the modern prophets. And it seems whenever scriptures are presented to him that powerfully contradict his views he rationalizes his rejection of the teachings of the Church by claiming the verses cited were either written at a time when the writers had limited understanding or that the verses don’t mean what they very clearly appear to be saying. He will also cite verses of scripture that appear to bolster his point of view and expect those who disagree with him to have to confront and deal with what those verses say, while he’s simultaneously dismissive of any verses that strongly contradict his ideas

About 25 years ago I discovered the same vein of gospel truth Rob has discovered, but I made darn sure that while I was processing this newfound knowledge that I wasn’t also contradicting the scriptures and the doctrines of the restored Church. By the time I had fully finished formulating and setting in order this newfound gospel knowledge, much to my intense joy I learned the Book of Mormon’s plan of salvation and the one presented in D&C sections 19, 76, 88, 132 and 138 are in total harmony with each other. Thanks to the acquisition of this deeper understanding of the gospel, the joy and confidence I now feel when defending the doctrines of the restoration is great. 

What follows is a good example of verses of scripture that clearly contradict what Rob believes. After coming to an understand of what these verses say there are only two possibilities: either Rob is clearly wrong, or the celestial kingdom has three degrees of glory. And if the later is the case,, we might as well just accept that there are three degrees of glory in the Father’s mansions of glory. 

(Please note the word ‘quickened’ in the following verses means ‘resurrected’j

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.(D&C 88)

Edited January 18, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

All good points. The 1/3 bit is a topic all by itself and would be fun to discuss. I think the main point is that in the end all those Christ saves are all part of his one fold. They have all come in by the same gate and followed the same path. They all end up alike at harvest. All their saving ordinances and covenants are in order and obedience has been shown. It is only this type of person that can be saved. We should be viewing the parable of the wheat and tares as all of the wheat are "all" those Christ saves from perdition. There isn't some other group. There is only one shepherd and only one fold- only one kingdom and it is Christ's and Christ is Father's. All the saved become sons and daughters and heirs to all that God has.

For as in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  We also know that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

But let us consider what I think you would understand and call a principle.  That is the eternal principle of "Justice".  Is that eternal principle justice served (achieved) if someone less dedicated (even ever so slightly) receives the same conclusion of someone more disciplined?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

29 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Believe it or not, Rob is actually onto something that’s deeply profound and true, which is why he’s so bold and adamant when he defends his position. What he’s discovered is so beautiful and wonderful that he can’t imagine having to let it go.

Care to elaborate? What, exactly, is deeply profound and true?

[Traveler]

26 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Believe it or not, Rob is actually onto something that’s deeply profound and true, which is why he’s so bold and adamant when he defends his position. What he’s discovered is so beautiful and wonderful that he can’t imagine having to let it go.

The only problem is that while what he has discovered does have a strong element of truth that’s not widely understood and therefore nor generally talked about in today’s Church, the sad reality that he’s taken that vein of great truth he’s discovered way too far, to the point that he’s often at odds with the scriptures and the teachings of the modern prophets. And it seems whenever scriptures are presented to him that powerfully contradict his views he rationalizes his rejection of the teachings of the Church by claiming the verses cited were either written at a time when the writers had limited understanding or that the verses don’t mean what they very clearly appear to be saying. He will also cite verses of scripture that appear to bolster his point of view and expect those who disagree with him to have to confront and deal with what those verses say, while he’s simultaneously dismissive of any verses that strongly contradict his ideas

About 25 years ago I discovered the same vein of gospel truth Rob has discovered, but I made darn sure that while I was processing this newfound knowledge that I wasn’t also contradicting the scriptures and the doctrines of the restored Church. By the time I had fully finished formulating and setting in order this newfound gospel knowledge, much to my intense joy I learned the Book of Mormon’s plan of salvation and the one presented in D&C sections 19, 76, 88, 132 and 138 are in total harmony with each other. Thanks to the acquisition of this deeper understanding of the gospel, the joy and confidence I now feel when defending the doctrines of the restoration is great. 

What follows is a good example of verses of scripture that clearly contradict what Rob believes. After coming to an understand of what these verses say there are only two possibilities: either Rob is clearly wrong, or the celestial kingdom has three degrees of glory. And if the later is the case,, we might as well just accept that there are three degrees of glory in the Father’s mansions of glory. 

(Please note the word ‘quickened’ in the following verses means ‘resurrected’j

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.(D&C 88)

Isaiah gives insight when he prophesied that we acquire a understanding of truth - line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  One of the principles (please note that I used the term principle rather than doctrine) is that a paramount purpose of our mortal probation and second estate, is growth - or perhaps better understood as evolution.  In short we are in a universe, galaxy, solar system, planet and culture of change.  One of the best indicators of where change is taking us is - what we have become over the last 13 or so billion years?  Not so much at to the data we have accumulated but the love and compassion (beyond ourselves) that we have achieved.  And how does that compare to Christ?

For all the "talk" of doctrine - it does us little if we are not evolving into Christ as surly as an egg evolves into a chicken.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Care to elaborate? What, exactly, is deeply profound and true?

That Jesus is the Christ and through him all can be saved and receive exaltation.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Believe it or not, Rob is actually onto something that’s deeply profound and true, which is why he’s so bold and adamant when he defends his position. What he’s discovered is so beautiful and wonderful that he can’t imagine having to let it go.

The only problem is that while what he has discovered does have a strong element of truth that’s not widely understood and therefore nor generally talked about in today’s Church, the sad reality that he’s taken that vein of great truth he’s discovered way too far, to the point that he’s often at odds with the scriptures and the teachings of the modern prophets. And it seems whenever scriptures are presented to him that powerfully contradict his views he rationalizes his rejection of the teachings of the Church by claiming the verses cited were either written at a time when the writers had limited understanding or that the verses don’t mean what they very clearly appear to be saying. He will also cite verses of scripture that appear to bolster his point of view and expect those who disagree with him to have to confront and deal with what those verses say, while he’s simultaneously dismissive of any verses that strongly contradict his ideas

About 25 years ago I discovered the same vein of gospel truth Rob has discovered, but I made darn sure that while I was processing this newfound knowledge that I wasn’t also contradicting the scriptures and the doctrines of the restored Church. By the time I had fully finished formulating and setting in order this newfound gospel knowledge, much to my intense joy I learned the Book of Mormon’s plan of salvation and the one presented in D&C sections 19, 76, 88, 132 and 138 are in total harmony with each other. Thanks to the acquisition of this deeper understanding of the gospel, the joy and confidence I now feel when defending the doctrines of the restoration is great. 

What follows is a good example of verses of scripture that clearly contradict what Rob believes. After coming to an understand of what these verses say there are only two possibilities: either Rob is clearly wrong, or the celestial kingdom has three degrees of glory. And if the later is the case,, we might as well just accept that there are three degrees of glory in the Father’s mansions of glory. 

(Please note the word ‘quickened’ in the following verses means ‘resurrected’j

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.(D&C 88)

I think we speak of many of the same great truths. However, I'm curious, what do you think is meant by those "who are of a Celestial spirit" means? I have my own drawn out belief here but I want to hear what you think it means.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

For as in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  We also know that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

But let us consider what I think you would understand and call a principle.  That is the eternal principle of "Justice".  Is that eternal principle justice served (achieved) if someone less dedicated (even ever so slightly) receives the same conclusion of someone more disciplined?

 

The Traveler

Definitely an advantage in a sense. But, on an individual basis, seeking the same destination, is there not just one gate? Is there not but one path? And if a path, to one destination?

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Definitely an advantage in a sense. But, on an individual basis, seeking the same destination, is there not just one gate? Is there not but one path? And if a path, to one destination?

I thought my question was clear - The question is about the principle of justice.  It appears to me that either you do not understand the principle of justice or that you do not want to discuss that principle and are trying to shift my question to a completely different principle.  So I will ask again - it is "just" to compensate two individuals exactly the same; when one has definitely worked harder, longer, with more dedication and sacrifice than the other?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I thought my question was clear - The question is about the principle of justice.  It appears to me that either you do not understand the principle of justice or that you do not want to discuss that principle and are trying to shift my question to a completely different principle.  So I will ask again - it is "just" to compensate two individuals exactly the same; when one has definitely worked harder, longer, with more dedication and sacrifice than the other?

For what it's worth: I believe any who attain Exaltation will have, ultimately, done what is required to get there. Certainly that doesn't mean in this life, whereas one individual, born in the covenant, works at it their whole life, and another individual, born out of covenant, only finds the truth late in life, but embraces it fully.

Regardless, of course it's just to reward the fastest runner with the fastest runner award regardless of whether that individual had to work hard to run fast or does so with ease.

Sorry to step on your toes on this point, as I certainly support your intentions here, but I'm not sure the path your going down leads to the correct conclusion.

[Rob Osborn]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I thought my question was clear - The question is about the principle of justice.  It appears to me that either you do not understand the principle of justice or that you do not want to discuss that principle and are trying to shift my question to a completely different principle.  So I will ask again - it is "just" to compensate two individuals exactly the same; when one has definitely worked harder, longer, with more dedication and sacrifice than the other?

 

The Traveler

It depends upon what reward or purpose we are speaking of. The laborers in the vineyard shows this. Was not their pay the same when one worked longer than the other in the Lord's vineyard?

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For what it's worth: I believe any who attain Exaltation will have, ultimately, done what is required to get there. Certainly that doesn't mean in this life, whereas one individual, born in the covenant, works at it their whole life, and another individual, born out of covenant, only finds the truth late in life, but embraces it fully.

Regardless, of course it's just to reward the fastest runner with the fastest runner award regardless of whether that individual had to work hard to run fast or does so with ease.

Sorry to step on your toes on this point, as I certainly support your intentions here, but I'm not sure the path your going down leads to the correct conclusion.

I never turn down an opportunity to exchange ideas - though sometimes I let my ego get the better of things - I still apologize for some of my past digressions with you.  One "principle" I was trying to get to; is that there is a lot more going on than "justice" in the plan of salvation - even though justice is an integral part of the plan of salvation.

One thing that concerns me about salvation is that it seems many are concerned that they get everything that anybody else gets that are included in the rewards associated with salvation that are given out by G-d.  I am quite sure that salvation is not a "just" reward but rather something else that takes it completely out of the reward category.  

 

The Traveler