Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses


Anddenex
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I guess my point is- sure, one may be further on the path than another in the destination of perfection and eternal life but it's most important to get on the path. Being on the path leads to the same destination. In the end, once everyone arrives, all will have worked the same laws and obedience as another, it just may take some longer. The focus though is on the end result. If the result is the same, perhaps it doesn't matter so much on if one thinks he's working harder than another. The prodigal son testifies of this and also cautions on being prideful thinking one deserves more cause they were obedient longer.

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2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I never turn down an opportunity to exchange ideas - though sometimes I let my ego get the better of things - I still apologize for some of my past digressions with you.  One "principle" I was trying to get to; is that there is a lot more going on than "justice" in the plan of salvation - even though justice is an integral part of the plan of salvation.

One thing that concerns me about salvation is that it seems many are concerned that they get everything that anybody else gets that are included in the rewards associated with salvation that are given out by G-d.  I am quite sure that salvation is not a "just" reward but rather something else that takes it completely out of the reward category.  

 

The Traveler

But, we only gain salvation after all we can do. We still are imperfect without the atonement. The parable of the laborers shows that the reward of salvation from hell and saved is the same regardless of when one comes to repentance just as long as they repent. In the end they still all end up the same type of being.

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4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It depends upon what reward or purpose we are speaking of. The laborers in the vineyard shows this. Was not their pay the same when one worked longer than the other in the Lord's vineyard?

Obviously this is not a perfect example of the principle of justice - which is the question I was asking - so what then is the principle at play in the parable?  I would have loved to moved on to that question if we could only resolved with some agreement -  the principle of justice.

 

The Traveler

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Just now, Traveler said:

Obviously this is not a perfect example of the principle of justice - which is the question I was asking - so what then is the principle at play in the parable?  I would have loved to moved on to that question if we could only resolved with some agreement -  the principle of justice.

 

The Traveler

Justice always will be met. Everyone will find, in the end, the same obedience is required for salvation.

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2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I never turn down an opportunity to exchange ideas - though sometimes I let my ego get the better of things - I still apologize for some of my past digressions with you.  One "principle" I was trying to get to; is that there is a lot more going on than "justice" in the plan of salvation - even though justice is an integral part of the plan of salvation.

One thing that concerns me about salvation is that it seems many are concerned that they get everything that anybody else gets that are included in the rewards associated with salvation that are given out by G-d.  I am quite sure that salvation is not a "just" reward but rather something else that takes it completely out of the reward category.  

I don't know that I agree with the first part...I'll think on it.

As to the second I agree. However, "reward" is just a word. The final state of those exalted will be a fulness of joy. The final state of those not exalted will not be a fulness of joy. Whether we call a fulness of joy a "reward" or not isn't particularly important. But I think it's fairly easy for most to agree that a fulness of joy is rightly considered a "reward". But to your point, salvation, at any level, is a result based on a variety of things. I think getting into equations concerning this beyond the basics taught in the scriptures is useless. The equation that matters is that humility, obedience, repentance, a broken heart and a contrite spirit, faith, etc., results in exaltation. Conversely, the lack of humility and repentance results in a state other than exaltation. Our concern is humility, obedience, and repentance.

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

But, we only gain salvation after all we can do. We still are imperfect without the atonement. The parable of the laborers shows that the reward of salvation from hell and saved is the same regardless of when one comes to repentance just as long as they repent. In the end they still all end up the same type of being.

I think you have completely missed the point of the labors - they are not laboring for themselves, they are laboring for the owner of the vineyard. 

 

The Traveler

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3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't know that I agree with the first part...I'll think on it.

As to the second I agree. However, "reward" is just a word. The final state of those exalted will be a fulness of joy. The final state of those not exalted will not be a fulness of joy. Whether we call a fulness of joy a "reward" or not isn't particularly important. But I think it's fairly easy for most to agree that a fulness of joy is rightly considered a "reward". But to your point, salvation, at any level, is a result based on a variety of things. I think getting into equations concerning this beyond the basics taught in the scriptures is useless. The equation that matters is that humility, obedience, repentance, a broken heart and a contrite spirit, faith, etc., results in exaltation. Conversely, the lack of humility and repentance results in a state other than exaltation. Our concern is humility, obedience, and repentance.

Is not humility, obedience and repentance its own reward?  But then to expect more; would it not be an act that does not reflect humility, obedience and repentance? 

 

The Traveler

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10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I think you have completely missed the point of the labors - they are not laboring for themselves, they are laboring for the owner of the vineyard. 

 

The Traveler

Let me quote from Jefferey R. Holland on what he speaks in part about the laborers in the vineyard-

"My beloved brothers and sisters, to those of you who have been blessed by the gospel for many years because you were fortunate enough to find it early, to those of you who have come to the gospel by stages and phases later, and to those of you—members and not yet members—who may still be hanging back, to each of you, one and all, I testify of the renewing power of God’s love and the miracle of His grace. His concern is for the faith at which you finally arrive, not the hour of the day in which you got there."

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8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Is not humility, obedience and repentance its own reward?

Yes. But that isn't relevant. There are greater "rewards" given as set up by the plan of our Father in Heaven. "Rewards" that could not be achieved by our simply being humble, obedient, and repentant on our own.

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

But then to expect more; would it not be an act that does not reflect humility, obedience and repentance? 

Really? So if I'm kind to my wife and I hope for (expect) a good marriage I'm not humble, obedient and repentant? If I work hard at my job and expect good pay and job security I'm prideful and disobedient?

What does expectation of reward have to do with humility, obedience, and repentance?

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Let me quote from Jefferey R. Holland on what he speaks in part about the laborers in the vineyard-

"My beloved brothers and sisters, to those of you who have been blessed by the gospel for many years because you were fortunate enough to find it early, to those of you who have come to the gospel by stages and phases later, and to those of you—members and not yet members—who may still be hanging back, to each of you, one and all, I testify of the renewing power of God’s love and the miracle of His grace. His concern is for the faith at which you finally arrive, not the hour of the day in which you got there."

I will try again - Christ healed 10 lepers but only one was made whole.  I believe you are trying to compare apples to oranges.  They were all blessed the same and they were all healed and yet one benefited more by becoming whole.  The assumption that all benefit the same in salvation - even if all have the same blessings; I am not sure that means all benefit the same.

 

The Traveler 

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10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yes. But that isn't relevant. There are greater "rewards" given as set up by the plan of our Father in Heaven. "Rewards" that could not be achieved by our simply being humble, obedient, and repentant on our own.

Really? So if I'm kind to my wife and I hope for (expect) a good marriage I'm not humble, obedient and repentant? If I work hard at my job and expect good pay and job security I'm prideful and disobedient?

What does expectation of reward have to do with humility, obedience, and repentance?

I will try to explain my understanding with a statement and a question.  Not all that are kind to their spouses have good marriages and not all that work hard at their jobs are paid well.  Does a humble person in such circumstance rightfully blame G-d for not rewarding them?

 

The Traveler

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1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Not all that are kind to their spouses have good marriages and not all that work hard at their jobs are paid well.

Totally irrelevant to expectation.

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Does a humble person in such circumstance rightfully blame G-d for not rewarding them?

Also not relevant. Just because I expect job stability from working hard, etc., doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to believe it guarantees it.

On the other hand, eternal life...we have promises. So yeah. I expect exaltation if I am humble, obedient, and repent of my sins.

Don't you?

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I will try again - Christ healed 10 lepers but only one was made whole.  I believe you are trying to compare apples to oranges.  They were all blessed the same and they were all healed and yet one benefited more by becoming whole.  The assumption that all benefit the same in salvation - even if all have the same blessings; I am not sure that means all benefit the same.

 

The Traveler 

Christ cleanses "all" those he saves from "all" their sins. If clean, then pure, and all pure.

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7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I will try again - Christ healed 10 lepers but only one was made whole.  I believe you are trying to compare apples to oranges.  They were all blessed the same and they were all healed and yet one benefited more by becoming whole.  The assumption that all benefit the same in salvation - even if all have the same blessings; I am not sure that means all benefit the same.

 

The Traveler 

Another way to conceptualize this salient point is to read the Parable of the Laborers in conjunction with the Parable of the talents. The laborers may receive the same wage/talent, but what they do with that wage/talent may produce quite different results.

Not all who enter the gate reach the end of the path.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Another way to conceptualize this salient point is to read the Parable of the Laborers in conjunction with the Parable of the talents. The laborers may receive the same wage/talent, but what they do with that wage/talent may produce quite different results.

Not all who enter the gate reach the end of the path.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It's true that not enduring to the end results in damnation. But, they aren't saved either if that's the case. Thus, all who are saved reach the destination at the end of the path- that destination is eternal life.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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On 1/18/2019 at 3:54 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Totally irrelevant to expectation.

Also not relevant. Just because I expect job stability from working hard, etc., doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to believe it guarantees it.

On the other hand, eternal life...we have promises. So yeah. I expect exaltation if I am humble, obedient, and repent of my sins.

Don't you?

I have little idea of what eternal life will be like.   I assume that there are some parallels to this mortal life.  Jesus suffered a great deal in this mortal life.  I think there is a connection with being willing to suffer and being humble.  But my expectations of eternal life is not so much of suffering.  I see a logical disconnect with the concept of suffering so we do not have to suffer.  I wonder if we deal with humility in the same manner - in that we think we must be humble now so we do not have to be  humble later.

What if eternal life is just more of the same - willing to suffer, be humble, obedient and forever repenting of our sins?  None of which would seem to be what the most advanced intelligent beings of all eternity would want to do forever with endless powers to be great, happy and wonderful.  Getting all the credit one deserves for being successful is not my idea of being humble.   Such expectations seem more in line with what Lucifer expected.

It is quite possible others may not see any paradox here - I have to deal with my own expectations and difficulties in being humble and willing to suffer.  But I am somewhat confused when anyone indicates that being humble is not a problem for them - somewhere it would seem that one of us is missing something.

 

The Traveler

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On 1/18/2019 at 11:32 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

Care to elaborate? What, exactly, is deeply profound and true?

That contrary to what both LDS scholars and anti-LDS critics often claim, the plan of salvation as presented in the Doctrine & Covenants and the Book of Mormon are actually in perfect harmony with each other. A thorough reading and comprehension of D&C sections 19, 76, 88, 131, 132 and 138 contain the keys to unlock the mystery that reveals there is no doctrinal conflict between the Book of Mormon’s binary presentation of the plan of salvation and the D&C’s three degrees of glory presentation of the plan of salvation.

Rob discovered some of the basic elements that resolve the mystery, but then unwisely went too far with the claim that there aren’t degrees of glory but that one is either fully exalted or totally damned to outer darkness with the sons of perdition. As you know, the Doctrine & Covenants clearly teaches that there are degrees of glory, even within the celestial kingdom, but Rob finds ways of explaining away such scriptures with the claim they were written before the full spiritual illumination on the subject that only he, and not the past and living prophets, has received.

Edited by Jersey Boy
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1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

That contrary to what both LDS scholars and anti-LDS critics often claim, the plan of salvation as presented in the Doctrine & Covenants and the Book of Mormon are actually in perfect harmony with each other. A thorough reading and comprehension of D&C sections 19, 76, 88, 131, 132 and 138 contain the keys to unlock the mystery that reveals there is no doctrinal conflict between the Book of Mormon’s binary presentation of the plan of salvation and the D&C’s three degrees of glory presentation of the plan of salvation.

Rob discovered some of the basic elements that resolve the mystery, but then unwisely went too far with the claim that there aren’t degrees of glory but that one is either fully exalted or totally damned to outer darkness with the sons of perdition. As you know, the Doctrine & Covenants clearly teaches that there are degrees of glory, even within the celestial kingdom, but Rob finds ways of explaining away such scriptures with the claim they were written before the full spiritual illumination on the subject that only he, and not the past and living prophets, has received.

Whoa there, you are making some false claims about my beliefs. I have never taught there weren't three degrees of glory within the Celestial kingdom. I actually advocate that doctrine. Where I differ is that after resurrection and judgment there is only the Celestial kingdom left on the right hand for all the righteous or the eternal hell on the left hand for the wicked. There won't be separate world's of glory for the saved to go to.

My belief is that everyone falls into one of two general places- either immortality unto eternal life in Celestial glory or immortality unto eternal damnation where damnation is hell.

I also have never claimed that only I received this by revelation. This is just not true. My beliefs is that I put together what prophets have already revealed and teach. That's a huge difference.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Whoa there, you are making some false claims about my beliefs. I have never taught there weren't three degrees of glory within the Celestial kingdom. I actually advocate that doctrine. Where I differ is that after resurrection and judgment there is only the Celestial kingdom left on the right hand for all the righteous or the eternal hell on the left hand for the wicked. There won't be separate world's of glory for the saved to go to.

My belief is that everyone falls into one of two general places- either immortality unto eternal life in Celestial glory or immortality unto eternal damnation where damnation is hell.

I also have never claimed that only I received this by revelation. This is just not true. My beliefs is that I put together what prophets have already revealed and teach. That's a huge difference.

Can you name just one past or current LDS Church leader who have indicated they believe as you do? If there is such a person, please provide quotes that will substantiate that they did or do in fact believe as you do.

Does the following passage from D&C 76 mean there will be saved people in the celestial kingdom who, even though they are in the celestial kingdom, will never get to see nor personally be in the presence of God and Christ?

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

Edited by Jersey Boy
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8 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Can you name just one past or current LDS Church leader who have indicated they believe as you do? If there is such a person, please provide quotes that will substantiate that they did or do in fact believe as you do.

Does the following passage from D&C 76 mean there will be saved people in the celestial kingdom who, even though they are in the celestial kingdom, will never get to see nor personally be in the presence of God and Christ?

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared.                                                                                                                                                                                112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

I have shown on many occasions that Jefferey R Holland believes we are currently in the telestial kingdom. I have also stated many times that our temple teaches that we are now in the telestial kingdom. I have also stated my beliefs many times that the vision Joseph Smith saw, as now recorded as section "76" was a vision of the progression of our earth and thus why he sees son's of perdition (verse 103) in the telestial kingdom.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have shown on many occasions that Jefferey R Holland believes we are currently in the telestial kingdom. I have also stated many times that our temple teaches that we are now in the telestial kingdom. I have also stated my beliefs many times that the vision Joseph Smith saw, as now recorded as section "76" was a vision of the progression of our earth and thus why he sees son's of perdition (verse 103) in the telestial kingdom.

How much do you want to bet that if you asked Jeffrey R Holland whether or not he believes in both a pre-resurrection telestial world (our presnt fallen world) and a post resurrection telestial kingdom of heavenly glory that he would wouldn’t say yes?

 

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2 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

How much do you want to bet that if you asked Jeffrey R Holland whether or not he believes in both a pre-resurrection telestial world (our presnt fallen world) and a post resurrection telestial kingdom of heavenly glory that he would wouldn’t say yes?

 

All speculation. What isn't speculation though is his belief that we are currently in the Telestial Kingdom.

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

All speculation. What isn't speculation though is his belief that we are currently in the Telestial Kingdom.

Instead of deflecting, please directly answer the question I asked. Do you believe Elder Holland would agree with you that the earth in its present fallen telestial state is one and the same with the telestial kingdom spoken of in D&C sections 76 and 88?

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