Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, Jersey Boy said:

Instead of deflecting, please directly answer the question I asked. Do you believe Elder Holland would agree with you that the earth in its present fallen telestial state is one and the same with the telestial kingdom spoken of in D&C sections 76 and 88?

The way I read Holland's statement is that the specific wording of this world being the telestial kingdom is the same as the temple and scripture. I'm not sure what his actual detailed thoughts are, none of us do. What we do know is that no differentiation has been explained by Elder Holland to say they are different kingdoms. I honestly would hope that he believes we are in the telestial kingdom now and progress through the terrestrial and then into the Celestial just as the temple teaches. I expect he is more of a temple knowledge master and thus understands the true meaning and placement of the kingdoms. But, he probably reserves most of his beliefs to himself.

[Jersey Boy]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The way I read Holland's statement is that the specific wording of this world being the telestial kingdom is the same as the temple and scripture. I'm not sure what his actual detailed thoughts are, none of us do. What we do know is that no differentiation has been explained by Elder Holland to say they are different kingdoms. I honestly would hope that he believes we are in the telestial kingdom now and progress through the terrestrial and then into the Celestial just as the temple teaches. I expect he is more of a temple knowledge master and thus understands the true meaning and placement of the kingdoms. But, he probably reserves most of his beliefs to himself.

Just because the temple teaches the earth has, so far, gone through a paradisical phase and is now in a telestial phase, and that it will once again go through a paradisical phase during the millennium, and then finally be celestialized, doesn’t mean there aren’t also going to be post-resurrection telestial and terrestrial kingdoms of glory — a fact that is repeatedly taught in the scriptures. Your mistake is that you are stubbornly conflating two distinct cosmological phenomena. For example, D&C 88 clearly teaches a great many humans will receive telestial and terrestrial bodies and glories after the day of quickening, or resurrection day. 

Since joining the Church in 1970, I have known for decades that the Church teaches there’s a big difference between our present fallen telestial earth and what will be the post-resurrection telestial and terrestrial abodes of heavenly glory. Perhaps you didn’t get the memo?

Now in time past this earth had a paradisiacal glory, and then came the fall, bringing a change, and that change has been upon the earth in the neighborhood of 6,000 years. What is meant by the restoration of the earth? This earth is to be renewed and brought back to the condition in which it was before it was cursed through the fall of Adam. When Adam passed out of the Garden of Eden, then the earth became a telestial world, and it is of that order today. I do not mean a telestial glory such as will be found in telestial worlds after their resurrection, but a telestial condition which has been from the days of Adam until now and will continue until Christ comes. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:85)

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

Just because the temple teaches the earth has, so far, gone through a paradisical phase and is now in a telestial phase, and that it will once again go through a paradisical phase during the millennium, and then finally be celestialized, doesn’t mean there aren’t also going to be post-resurrection telestial and terrestrial kingdoms of glory — a fact that is repeatedly taught in the scriptures. Your mistake is that you are stubbornly conflating two distinct cosmological phenomena. For example, D&C 88 clearly teaches a great many humans will receive telestial and terrestrial bodies and glories after the day of quickening, or resurrection day. 

Since joining the Church in 1970, I have known for decades that the Church teaches there’s a big difference between our present fallen telestial earth and what will be the post-resurrection telestial and terrestrial abodes of heavenly glory. Perhaps you didn’t get the memo?

Now in time past this earth had a paradisiacal glory, and then came the fall, bringing a change, and that change has been upon the earth in the neighborhood of 6,000 years. What is meant by the restoration of the earth? This earth is to be renewed and brought back to the condition in which it was before it was cursed through the fall of Adam. When Adam passed out of the Garden of Eden, then the earth became a telestial world, and it is of that order today. I do not mean a telestial glory such as will be found in telestial worlds after their resurrection, but a telestial condition which has been from the days of Adam until now and will continue until Christ comes. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:85)

 

What section 88 isn't exactly clear on is the resurrection and kingdoms. It does speak of one recieving their body according to the glory of their resurrection. Now, we know that since Christ the resurrection has already begun. But what glory has their resurrection been with? This is the grand key in my opinion. A body is resurrected by the glory which it is quickened with. It is the earth and glory of that it posseses that resurrects. Thus, because we now enjoy telestial glory all those resurrected to this point have been resurrected by telestial glory. The key word on section 88 is where it says all those of a "Celestial spirit" meaning those living according to a Celestial law in the spirit world are able to be resurrected first and they are resurrected by the glory at that time.  The earth, even though it abides a Celestial law, it only has telestial glory at this time and thus as a mother bearing children in this sense, resurrects with that glory. That said, all resurrected bodies will be quickened to terrestrial glory when Christ comes again.

 

[Colirio]

Wrong thread

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Colirio

[Jersey Boy]

On 1/21/2019 at 8:51 PM, Rob Osborn said:

What section 88 isn't exactly clear on is the resurrection and kingdoms. It does speak of one recieving their body according to the glory of their resurrection. Now, we know that since Christ the resurrection has already begun. But what glory has their resurrection been with? This is the grand key in my opinion. A body is resurrected by the glory which it is quickened with. It is the earth and glory of that it posseses that resurrects. Thus, because we now enjoy telestial glory all those resurrected to this point have been resurrected by telestial glory. The key word on section 88 is where it says all those of a "Celestial spirit" meaning those living according to a Celestial law in the spirit world are able to be resurrected first and they are resurrected by the glory at that time.  The earth, even though it abides a Celestial law, it only has telestial glory at this time and thus as a mother bearing children in this sense, resurrects with that glory. That said, all resurrected bodies will be quickened to terrestrial glory when Christ comes again.

 

There you go again totally ignoring another wonderful clarifying statement from an apostle of the Lord — in this case one of the greatest scholars in the history of the restored Church — who testifies there’s a major difference between the pre-resurrection fallen telestial orb on which we now dwell, and the telestial world of post-resurrection glory that will be inherited by those who receive a telestial glory.

D&C 88 builds upon the foundation of D&C 76, so why are you mystified about where the inheritors of telestial, terrestrial and celestial resurrected bodies will dwell? Doesn’t D&C 76 make it perfectly clear that those who are resurrected with telestial bodies are going to inherit the telestial kingdom glory? And isn’t it also true that those who are resurrected with terrestrial bodies will dwell in the terrestrial kingdom of glory,  and that those who are resurrected with celestial bodies will inhabit the celestial kingdom of glory? This is what the Church has been teaching as fundamental truth since 1832. It’s very odd to encounter an apparently knowledgeable member of the Church who expresses wonderment about where those who inherit resurrected telestial bodies will dwell in the eternities. This is the kind of basic stuff a young member teenager would know.

Another question: I’m curious to know how many members of the Church you’ve thus far been able to convince that there aren’t three degrees of glory after the resurrection?

 

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

There you go again totally ignoring another wonderful clarifying statement from an apostle of the Lord — in this case one of the greatest scholars in the history of the restored Church — who testifies there’s a major difference between the pre-resurrection fallen telestial orb on which we now dwell, and the telestial world of post-resurrection glory that will be inherited by those who receive a telestial glory.

D&C 88 builds upon the foundation of D&C 76, so why are you mystified about where the inheritors of telestial, terrestrial and celestial resurrected bodies will dwell? Doesn’t D&C 76 make it perfectly clear that those who are resurrected with telestial bodies are going to inherit the telestial kingdom glory? And isn’t it also true that those who are resurrected with terrestrial bodies will dwell in the terrestrial kingdom of glory,  and that those who are resurrected with celestial bodies will inhabit the celestial kingdom of glory? This is what the Church has been teaching as fundamental truth since 1832. It’s very odd to encounter an apparently knowledgeable member of the Church who expresses wonderment about where those who inherit resurrected telestial bodies will dwell in the eternities. This is the kind of basic stuff a young member teenager would know.

Another question: I’m curious to know how many members of the Church you’ve thus far been able to convince that there aren’t three degrees of glory after the resurrection?

 

 

My understanding has come from a thorough study of the doctrine of over 20+ years on this subject. I first noted some inconsistencies about 20 plus years ago and decided to embark on a more thorough study of it. It took two decades to come to where I am at today. Several Paramount paradoxes exist in section 76 when read through the lens of our current plan of salvation doctrine. I have been working through those to eliminate the paradoxes. It really led back to reading the Book of Mormon through the words how Joseph Smith used them in the 1830's and structuring the gospel kind of from scratch, not using our modern understanding as that is not how Joseph Smith used the words. The beautiful part is that once it all started to come together I found those gems in the temple that sealed the deal for me. It's now almost picture perfect.

I have been able to convince most of my family members who are still alive of these truths.