So... Solo. The Han Solo Movie. The.... yeah.


unixknight
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26 minutes ago, Scott said:

As pointed out, I also enjoyed the movies.  I have even read a few of the books (two relating to Revenge of the Sith).   Although I read a lot, I usually don't read fiction, but I read those, so I would think that that says a lot.

So, no, I have no problem with anyone who enjoys the movies and books, even if they are geared towards children (older children).   I still like the Power Puff Girls (the older version, not the new one), the Animaniacs, and Disney movies.  How's that?

There is nothing wrong with enjoying a movie as long as it doing become an obsession.  Either way they are still just movies.  

I understand enjoying a movie (or book or whatever).   What I don't understand is (I'm not referring to anyone on this thread specifically-or I hope not) people that take Star Wars or something so seriously that they actually felt wronged if a movie came out that they didn't like.   There are a lot of people that have said something like "Star Wars 8 (or whatever) ruined my childhood".   Really?   Ruined your childhood?   That really is pathetic if a movie ruined your childhood.   

Ok that makes more sense. I apologize if I took your tone wrong, internet posts can be hard to recognize without being able to read the emotion behind it. Yes I agree, if someone allowed a bad movie, even in a popular and interesting franchise, to ruin their life they are way to invested in something. But I don't think disliking a movie or show and wanting things to have turned out differently is letting it ruin your life, I just think it shows interest and care in a subject.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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21 minutes ago, Scott said:

So, pointing out what George Lucas himself says about what Star Wars actually is (and you are the one that brought up George Lucas and his universe) is trolling?  George Lucas wanted Star Wars to be kids movies and stories.   That is the whole reason he create Star Wars.  He has said this many, many times.  If you or anyone else missed this, then you should listen to his own words.

George Lucas sold the thing to Disney.  Disney decided to slash the expanded universe.  What's left is the movies and Clone Wars that, except for Revenge of the Sith, tries to stay at a PG rating. 

When he created Star Wars, Lucas never planned on Star Wars becoming a cultural phenomenon.  But it did become one despite of it.   The universe exists BEYOND Lucas even as he is the one that has the final say of what goes in and what gets rejected.  Lucas ONLY created the movies.  Every single storyline that expands the universe outside of the movies is created and owned by somebody other than Lucas.  For example, Lucas got ripped to shreds by the fandom when he decided to create the midichlorian storyline because it is not consistent with the universe.

I have seen/read quite possibly every single George Lucas interview on the planet including that one.  I've been doing so since the 70's.  It's not just about listening to "his own words" on one interview.  It's the HISTORY of everything Lucas and Star Wars.

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6 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Ok that makes more sense. I apologize if I took your tone wrong, internet posts can be hard to recognize without being able to read the emotion behind it. Yes I agree, if someone allowed a bad movie, even in an popular and interesting franchise, ruin their life they are way to invested in something. But I don't think disliking a movie or show and wanting things to have turned out differently is letting it ruin your life, I just think ot shows interest and care in a subject.

I don't know what '"ruin your childhood" means.  But, The Last Jedi ruined Luke Skywalker - the guy who graced my bedroom wall throughout my childhood.  I have fond memories making fantasy stories and daydreaming about space with that guy and his sister and his brother-in-law.

So, does The Last Jedi make me upset.  Yep.  It does.

But, to be honest, it wouldn't have gotten SO BAD that it's almost a miracle for Episode 9 to recover from it if Disney did not attack it's own fans with their crap telling fans they just hate TLJ because they're sexists and racists and just can't stand it that a black man and a woman is headlighting the good guys.  That's when the fandom - Empire and Rebel alike, Prequels and OT fans alike, even Jarjar haters and Jarjar fans - united in their vocal criticism of Lucasfilm.

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33 minutes ago, unixknight said:

George Lucas is completely full of it right up to his eyeballs when he says Star Wars is, and always was, for kids.  He's maintained that nonsense from day 1 and when you hear his words and compare it with what we see, they just don't mesh.  The examples you're citing were not as graphic as blood splattered all over the cantina floor from the severed arm.  I'm not talking violence, I'm talking graphic violence.  

I (respectfully) disagree.  George Lucas may not have geared his movies for young children, but they are still made for older children, even if adults also do like them.  George Lucas said he made the movies primarily for 12 year olds and younger teens.   I don't know how old you were when you started watching Star Wars, but a lot of kids that age liked the movies.  A little blood an violence are exactly what a lot of kids that age enjoy in movies (surely you remember?).  

How old were you when you watched Star Wars?    Did you enjoy it?   Would you say that you enjoyed the movies in your childhood?   If so, why do you think they weren't kids movies?   

Quote

He continued that same nonsensical claim about the  prequels, even after many years of adult fandom.  He knew who the audience was, but continued saying that same line.  You think those long, dragged out scenes in the Republic Senate discussing setting  up exploratory committees to look into the  Trade Federation blockade of Naboo to determine the legalityzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ……..

*snore*

*sniff*  *ahem*  

You think that stuff was written with kids in mind?  Jar-Jar I'll give you.  Senate debates... no.  

Episodes IV through VI were more kid orientated then the more recent ones; I agree on this.   Still, I believe George Lucas when he said that he created Star Wars for (older) children.  

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Just now, anatess2 said:

I don't know what '"ruin your childhood" means.  But, The Last Jedi ruined Luke Skywalker - the guy who graced my bedroom wall throughout my childhood.

I actually did not like what they did with Luke in that film either (he was always a hero of mine when I was a kid, although I didn't have a poster). For me, it doesn't ruin him because nothing done by Rian Johnson can get rid of Luke's arc and the inspiration it gave me from the original series. Anything I don't like will just get ignored in my head canon of Star Wars☺.

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4 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

I actually did not like what they did with Luke in that film either (he was always a hero of mine when I was a kid, although I didn't have a poster). For me, it doesn't ruin him because nothing done by Rian Johnson can get rid of Luke's arc and the inspiration it gave me from the original series. Anything I don't like will just get ignored in my head canon of Star Wars☺.

Well and good if Lucasfilm declares they're done with Luke and he will not grace future Star Wars offerings.... yeah right.  Episode 9 lists Mark Hamill in a major casting role.  What are they gonna do?  Make every Luke interaction in Episode 8 a hallucination of some wild mushroom?

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13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I don't know what '"ruin your childhood" means.  But, The Last Jedi ruined Luke Skywalker - the guy who graced my bedroom wall throughout my childhood.  I have fond memories making fantasy stories and daydreaming about space with that guy and his sister and his brother-in-law.

So, does The Last Jedi make me upset.  Yep.  It does.

If that's true (and this is a serious question), why even bother watching the newer ones if you're afraid that they might ruin it for you?   Why not just focus on the older ones and ignore Episode 8?  Or watch them and ignore what happened in the latest episode.

I agree that Episode VIII was a waste of Skywalker (even Mark Hamill said this).   The story in VII was too similar to IV (in my opinion).  Still, I see no reason to get upset about it.

If Star Wars really, really is that important, why would one movie ruin it?  Would Church be completely ruined if one person gave a bad Sunday School lesson?  

Edited by Scott
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10 minutes ago, Scott said:

I understand enjoying a movie (or book or whatever).   What I don't understand is (I'm not referring to anyone on this thread specifically-or I hope not) people that take Star Wars or something so seriously that they actually felt wronged if a movie came out that they didn't like.   There are a lot of people that have said something like "Star Wars 8 (or whatever) ruined my childhood".   Really?   Ruined your childhood?   That really is pathetic if a movie ruined your childhood.   

I agree with you here.  My affinity for the original trilogy doesn't go away just because my take on the latest offerings is that they're mostly garbage.  When I hear "X ruined my childhood!" I feel the same way you do.

1 minute ago, Scott said:

I (respectfully) disagree.  George Lucas may not have geared his movies for young children, but they are still made for older children, even if adults also do like them.  George Lucas said he made the movies primarily for 12 year olds and younger teens.   I don't know how old you were when you started watching Star Wars, but a lot of kids that age liked the movies.  

How old were you when you watched Star Wars?    Did you enjoy it?   Would you say that you enjoyed the movies in your childhood?   If so, why do you think they weren't kids movies?   

Episodes IV through VI were more kid orientated then the more recent ones; I agree on this.   Still, I believe George Lucas when he said that he created Star Wars for (older) children.  

I was about 4 or 5 when I saw Star Wars.  At first I was  terrified of the 6' cardboard Vader out in front of the theater so the first time, I saw The Cat from Outer Space instead.  Later, I did go see it.  I liked all the spaceships and the lasers and the things blowing up.  I found Empire to be boring because it was all drama and people talking and yawwwwwwn and I liked Jedi because they had lots of wicked cool spaceships that weren't seen before and hey, who doesn't love a Super Star Destroyer smashing into the Death Star II?

Now, we should keep in mind that Episode 5 and 6 were NOT directed or solely written by Lucas, and were more sophisticated films, especially 5.  Go back and watch the imagery when Luke confronts Vader at Cloud City.  The backgrounds are saturated with red and blue.  When Luke seems to have the advantage and is ascendant,  the background colors are mostly blue, which represents him.  (That's why his lightsaber was blue.)  Vader's ascendancy is signaled to us by the reds, and when Vader has the advantage the background is awash in red.  The inversion comes when Luke, seemingly defeated, is perched out on the antenna over the chasm and Vader has him cornered.  It seems a paradox that the environment is overwhelmingly blue.  But that's a signal to us that Luke will win, because the Light side of the Force isn't about fighting or anger or violence... (Yoda taught Luke/the audience) that earlier in the film.  So even though Luke is afraid, wounded, cornered and has just received the shock of his life ("I am your father.")  he is still the victor, because he escapes alive and without succumbing to the temptation to join Vader.  He has learned to know the good side from the dark side.  ("You will know.  When your mind is calm, at peace.")

Kids don't get that.  They can't get it.  It's more sophisticated storytelling than what you'd get in a movie that's mainly aimed at kids.  Maybe that was Lucas' intent (which I still find dubious) but the end result mostly goes right over the kids' heads.  As an adult, I regard Empire as the best film of the series.

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6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Well and good if Lucasfilm declares they're done with Luke and he will not grace future Star Wars offerings.... yeah right.  Episode 9 lists Mark Hamill in a major casting role.  What are they gonna do?  Make every Luke interaction in Episode 8 a hallucination of some wild mushroom?

Force Ghost.

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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

- In like episode 2 of Discovery, the other minority female died.  So let's give her a show focused on the years before she died.  [image: TV Exec board meeting:  "We're here to talk about what people with money like.  Minority females!  Those like those, right?"

This show is actually about the Evil empress from the mirror universe. Have you watched Discovery or just sketchy news stories about it?

I binged the crap out of my 3 day trial period, watched half of the first season.  The rest of my info came from your second guess. 

It's fun to poke fun at CBS executives, because some trekkies end up making it personal.  :)

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32 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I agree with you here.  My affinity for the original trilogy doesn't go away just because my take on the latest offerings is that they're mostly garbage.  When I hear "X ruined my childhood!" I feel the same way you do.

I was about 4 or 5 when I saw Star Wars. 

What age did you like Star Wars?   

Quote

At first I was  terrified of the 6' cardboard Vader out in front of the theater so the first time, I saw The Cat from Outer Space instead.  Later, I did go see it.  I liked all the spaceships and the lasers and the things blowing up.  I found Empire to be boring because it was all drama and people talking and yawwwwwwn and I liked Jedi because they had lots of wicked cool spaceships that weren't seen before and hey, who doesn't love a Super Star Destroyer smashing into the Death Star II?

In my opinion V was the best of the bunch.

Anyway, there are a few things that did bother me in some Star Wars movies (especially the prequels); just not enough to get upset.

For example, I really don't like the idea that Jedi are not allowed to love.  I didn't like that at all.  I think love should be the primary motivation for doing good rather than evil.  I didn't like that part.

I didn't like Jar Jar or the slobbering Boss Nass either.

The whole mitichlorian thing was just dumb (in my opinion-no offence to anyone who disagrees).

Skywalker was a waste in VIII and for that matter VII.

Also it would be nice if the new characters were simply done away with.    It seemed like bringing Skywalker or Princess Lea back was only a marketing ploy.  They really didn't do anything (other than perhaps Luke's force projection-which even then wasn't even Luke himself).  

Also, it seems like some of the stories or themes are too similar.    Starkiller Base was just a bigger death star.  Haven't we already seen this?

Kylo Ren seems similar to Anakin, but is more conflicted.  

Do latter episodes all have to be about the same family?   I mean their stories might be interesting, but certainly everything that happens in the entire galaxy isn't dependent on relatives (both good and bad) of the Skywalkers, especially since there are supposedly trillions of beings in the so called galaxy.  Something new and we haven't seen before would be cool.  

Still, to me, it's only a movie, or movies.  

Quote

Kids don't get that.  They can't get it.  It's more sophisticated storytelling than what you'd get in a movie that's mainly aimed at kids.  Maybe that was Lucas' intent (which I still find dubious) but the end result mostly goes right over the kids' heads.  As an adult, I regard Empire as the best film of the series.

There's a lot of things in kids movies that go over kids heads.   This is even true of shows geared for young children.   

Here's one from a show that was geared for younger children:
 

Anyway, if George Lucas did plan for children to be the target audience for Star Wars; it doesn't mean that they are the only audience that was meant to see the movie.  

Edited by Scott
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7 minutes ago, Scott said:

What age did you like Star Wars?   

In my opinion V was the best of the bunch.

Anyway, there are a few things that did bother me in some Star Wars movies (especially the prequels); just not enough to get upset.

For example, I really don't like the idea that Jedi are not allowed to love.  I didn't like that at all.  I think love should be the primary motivation for doing good rather than evil.  I didn't like that part.

I didn't like Jar Jar or the slobbering Boss Nass either.

The whole mitichlorian thing was just dumb (in my opinion-no offence to anyone who disagrees).

Skywalker was a waste in VIII and for that matter VII.

Also it would be nice if the new characters were simply done away with.    It seemed like bringing Skywalker or Princess Lea back was only a marketing ploy.  They really didn't do anything (other than perhaps Luke's force projection-which even then wasn't even Luke himself).  

Also, it seems like some of the stories or themes are too similar.    Starkiller Base was just a bigger death star.  Haven't we already seen this?

Kylo Ren seems similar to Anakin, but is more conflicted.  

Do latter episodes all have to be about the same family?   I mean their stories might be interesting, but certainly everything that happens in the entire galaxy isn't dependent on relatives (both good and bad) of the Skywalkers, especially since there are supposedly trillions of beings in the so called galaxy.  Something new and we haven't seen before would be cool.  

Still, to me, it's only a movie, or movies.  

There's a lot of things in kids movies that go over kids heads.   This is even true of shows geared for young children.   

Here's one from a show that was geared for younger children:
 

Anyway, if George Lucas did plan for children to be the target audience for Star Wars; it doesn't mean that they are the only audience that was meant to see the movie.  

I like 5 as well, although I'm a little bit of an oddball in that 6 was my favorite, Ewoks notwithstanding (I love naval battles both real and fictional, and I still think VI has the best space combat of the series). I also agree that there are sometimes some fairly adult themes discussed even in works meant for children. The Hobbit comes to mind, book not film, where Bilbo is trapped with the blind monster Smeagol who is planning on eating him. But, I also think @unixknight makes a good point about the filmography and themes that would clearly go over the head of kids. Lucas may say he intended the series for children, but there are enough themes that are clearly marketed towards adults that make me question his assertion.

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

If that's true (and this is a serious question), why even bother watching the newer ones if you're afraid that they might ruin it for you?   Why not just focus on the older ones and ignore Episode 8?  Or watch them and ignore what happened in the latest episode.

I agree that Episode VIII was a waste of Skywalker (even Mark Hamill said this).   The story in VII was too similar to IV (in my opinion).  Still, I see no reason to get upset about it.

If Star Wars really, really is that important, why would one movie ruin it?  Would Church be completely ruined if one person gave a bad Sunday School lesson?  

I will give you exactly why there's no Star Wars going forward and I'm not even going to touch anything about the expanded universe:

The Path of the Jedi and Sith - ruined

Episode I - Anakin becomes a Padawan. (Sith rule of two - Sidious Lord, Maul Apprentice)
Episode II - Anakin becomes a Jedi.  (Sidious grooming Anakin to become his Apprentice)
Clone Wars and Episode III - Anakin trains a new Jedi and becomes a Master (although he wasn't supposed to be a Master yet).  Anakin becomes a Sith Apprentice.
Episode IV - Luke becomes a Padawan (Anakin is now fully Vader, but we don't see the Sith Lord yet)
Episode V - Luke becomes a Jedi (Sith rule of two, Sidious the Lord, Vader the Apprentice)
Episode VI - Luke shows potential to be a Jedi Master (Vader challenges Sidious rising to Sith Lord, then dies completing his story arc with the Sith destroyed).
Episode VII - Rey starts displaying Force powers with zero training.  What the what?  Almost destroys, not just Jedi-trained but Luke-trained, darkside force user.  No progression in Luke.  But, it's the first movie.  We give it a pass.
Episode VIII - Luke, is not only shown as a crappy master (really?  thought about killing his Padawan nephew?), he shows a completely 180 from his nature of wanting to save people shown all throughout the entire set of movies, including the evil Vader.  Then he refuses to train Rey and somehow Rey can now lift big boulders and a random kid with zero exposure to Jedi or Sith or anything that has knowledge of the force can use force powers to move a broom?  Even Anakin couldn't do that working at that slave hut!  Then Snoke - the Master so good at being evil that Luke wanted to kill his nephew for being influenced by him, is so dumb as to get killed by a force trick?  And oh, yeah Rey, untrained, gets to go slashing up the red guard.  And I'm not even gonna talk about Lea Poppins - also untrained, never had any indication of being a Jedi in the time between Episode VI and VII...

How about the lightsaber - 
All throughout the movies before Disney, the lightsaber was tied to force powers.  You have to be force sensitive to wield its power and be trained to use it.  But yeah, let's just have Fin go lightsabering around.  And, the lightsaber that used to be able to slice Darth Maul in half and melt blast doors and slice Luke's hand clean off his arm, can now slice Fin and he just passes out for a few minutes... slices Kylo and he just walks off of that too.

So yeah... you got one movie (two if you don't give Episode VII any quarter) that just completely rendered 6 prior movies senseless.  And you're supposed to expect Episode IX to recover from all of this?  How?  They're going to figure out a way to give Rey some training that she somehow forgot she had because she had amnesia or something?  They're going to explain away how the crystals used create these new crop of lightsabers is not the same kind of crystals or something?  They're going to revive Lea and give her a backstory for her Poppins powers?  They're going to create another backstory as to how the real Luke was actually abducted by aliens, so this Luke is a fake?

Man, I haven't even scratched the surface.  Because, the problem with Disney is not just the movies.  IT'S THE PEOPLE making the movies especially in the way they treat the fandom.  The Force is Female is just another one of those things that makes you wonder if these people really bothered to watch Star Wars movies.
 

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I binged the crap out of my 3 day trial period, watched half of the first season.  The rest of my info came from your second guess. 

It's fun to poke fun at CBS executives, because some trekkies end up making it personal.  :)

I see. At least you watched some of it. I have run into people that hate both star trek and star wars and have never watched them. I find it funny.

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20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I will give you exactly why there's no Star Wars going forward and I'm not even going to touch anything about the expanded universe:

If you were a real fan, you would have been this ticked off after midichloriants and JarJar. 

[runs and hides behind something]

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28 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I will give you exactly why there's no Star Wars going forward and I'm not even going to touch anything about the expanded universe:

The Path of the Jedi and Sith - ruined


Episode VII - Rey starts displaying Force powers with zero training.  What the what?  Almost destroys, not just Jedi-trained but Luke-trained, darkside force user.  No progression in Luke.  But, it's the first movie.  We give it a pass.

Didn't Anakin also display force powers without training (Episode I)?  

Quote

So yeah... you got one movie (two if you don't give Episode VII any quarter) that just completely rendered 6 prior movies senseless.  And you're supposed to expect Episode IX to recover from all of this?  How?  They're going to figure out a way to give Rey some training that she somehow forgot she had because she had amnesia or something?  They're going to explain away how the crystals used create these new crop of lightsabers is not the same kind of crystals or something?  They're going to revive Lea and give her a backstory for her Poppins powers?  They're going to create another backstory as to how the real Luke was actually abducted by aliens, so this Luke is a fake?

So, if those are concerns, why not just avoid watching Episode IX?  No one is forced to watch it.  If it really is important that your story and timeline be maintained, why not just read your EU and watch the other episodes instead?  You can completely ignore the new movies if you choose to.  

PS, I agree with you on Lea Poppins.  That scene was unnecessary and pretty dumb.  Still, it's only a movie.  

Edited by Scott
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44 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I will give you exactly why there's no Star Wars going forward and I'm not even going to touch anything about the expanded universe:

The Path of the Jedi and Sith - ruined

Episode I - Anakin becomes a Padawan. (Sith rule of two - Sidious Lord, Maul Apprentice)

 

As far as Sith rule of two goes, wasn't this already ruined (long before Episode VIII) by just introducing the concept?   The rule of two was introduced later in the franchise.  

In episode VI, Darth Vader suggested to the Emperor that he could turn Luke and make him a powerful ally and the Emperor agreed.  

Why would Darth Vader and the Emperor both go along with this if the rule of two were in place?  It seems that if it were in place they wouldn't have gone along with it because it could only happen if one of them were killed.

If to make this happen, the Emperor planned on having Darth Vader killed, wouldn't Darth Vader immediately suspect this?   If Darth Vader was the one that planned to have the Emperor killed when making the suggestion, wouldn't the Emperor immediately would have suspected this?  

Also remember is Episode IV where Obi Wan Kenobi said he didn't ever remember owning a droid and it was obvious that he didn't recognize R2D2?  Then in Episode III, they obviously knew each other.   The plot holes in the Star Wars movies were there before Disney.
 

Edited by Scott
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58 minutes ago, Scott said:

What age did you like Star Wars? 

Oh right from the beginning.  So like, 5.  But for different reasons than I like it now.

58 minutes ago, Scott said:

For example, I really don't like the idea that Jedi are not allowed to love.  I didn't like that at all.  I think love should be the primary motivation for doing good rather than evil.  I didn't like that part.

I didn't like Jar Jar or the slobbering Boss Nass either.

The whole mitichlorian thing was just dumb (in my opinion-no offence to anyone who disagrees).

Skywalker was a waste in VIII and for that matter VII.

Also it would be nice if the new characters were simply done away with.    It seemed like bringing Skywalker or Princess Lea back was only a marketing ploy.  They really didn't do anything (other than perhaps Luke's force projection-which even then wasn't even Luke himself).  

Also, it seems like some of the stories or themes are too similar.    Starkiller Base was just a bigger death star.  Haven't we already seen this?

Kylo Ren seems similar to Anakin, but is more conflicted.  

Do latter episodes all have to be about the same family?   I mean their stories might be interesting, but certainly everything that happens in the entire galaxy isn't dependent on relatives (both good and bad) of the Skywalkers, especially since there are supposedly trillions of beings in the so called galaxy.  Something new and we haven't seen before would be cool. 

I agree with all of that.

58 minutes ago, Scott said:

Still, to me, it's only a movie, or movies. 

Fair enough.  I was initially reacting because it felt like you were casting aspersions onto people for whom they're more than just movies.

58 minutes ago, Scott said:

There's a lot of things in kids movies that go over kids heads.   This is even true of shows geared for young children.  

That's true, though I'd maintain that while Star Wars has plenty of content for the kids (big spaceships, things going BOOM!) they're also for adults (sophisticated metaphors, storylines, drama).

58 minutes ago, Scott said:

Anyway, if George Lucas did plan for children to be the target audience for Star Wars; it doesn't mean that they are the only audience that was meant to see the movie.  

I also think George Lucas is a liar.  This is the same guy who said he made his movies only for himself, then cashes massive royalty checks for all the licensed merchandise.  But yeah I agree with what you mean here.

7 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

If you were a real fan, you would have been this ticked off after midichloriants and JarJar. 

[runs and hides behind something]

You're a brave one with @anatess2 around. (But I agree)

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1 minute ago, Scott said:

If to make this happen, the Emperor planned on having Darth Vader killed, wouldn't Darth Vader immediately suspect this?   If Darth Vader was the one that planned to have the Emperor killed when making the suggestion, wouldn't the Emperor immediately would have suspected this?  
 

I always figured the idea was to bring in Luke as an apprentice, with both parties eventually planning to stab each other in the back later.  By the end of that same movie Vader was already planning to overthrow the Emperor, and in the next film it was the Emperor calling Luke  his young apprentice.

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16 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I always figured the idea was to bring in Luke as an apprentice, with both parties eventually planning to stab each other in the back later.  By the end of that same movie Vader was already planning to overthrow the Emperor, and in the next film it was the Emperor calling Luke  his young a

If that were true (and it might be) both of the Emperor and Darth Vader would have know that that was the other's plan and would have protected themselves.  Darth Vader didn't do anything to protect himself from the Emperor and in fact told Luke later that he must obey his master.  This was during the time that he was trying to turn Luke to the dark side:
 

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think the rule of two concept was created until after IV through VI were created.  

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20 minutes ago, Scott said:

If that were true (and it might be) both of the Emperor and Darth Vader would have know that that was the other's plan and would have protected themselves.  Darth Vader didn't do anything to protect himself from the Emperor and in fact told Luke later that he must obey his master.  This was during the time that he was trying to turn Luke to the dark side:

I've always seen the Sith as being the serpent eating its own tail.  That's the nature of evil.  Now, I can't really speak intelligently on how the Sith order manages to survive with a philosophy like that, but dysfunction finds a way, I guess.

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19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

If you were a real fan, you would have been this ticked off after midichloriants and JarJar. 

[runs and hides behind something]

I have no problem with midichlorians and I love Jarjar but I'm not stupid enough to tell those that DO have a problem with midichlorians and Jarjar that they're silly to be upset.

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Side note:  The rule of two applied.  For Luke to turn, he had to kill the emperor, and then Vader would become the master.

Main point:  The Star Wars franchise died for me the day I sat in a theater and watched episode I.  After that I honestly only watched the movies out of loyalty to the original, but honestly, I feel like when you shop at Sears and remember how department stores used to be, and wish they were again.   But they aren't.   Solo was the closest thing so far  though.  Everything else is hollow.

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I also have a problem watching a prequel/sequel when an actor portrays a known character.   And that is the voice.   If the voice doesn't match, I have a hard time.   The actor in Solo did not have the deep resonance of Harrison Ford.  Similarly, that Saving Mr. Banks movie had Tom Hanks playing a squeaky version of Walt Disney's deep gravely voice, and it was downright distracting.  Surprisingly, I have no problem with two Dumbledors.  Must be the magic.

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