So... Solo. The Han Solo Movie. The.... yeah.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

As far as Sith rule of two goes, wasn't this already ruined (long before Episode VIII) by just introducing the concept?   The rule of two was introduced later in the franchise.  

In episode VI, Darth Vader suggested to the Emperor that he could turn Luke and make him a powerful ally and the Emperor agreed.  

Why would Darth Vader and the Emperor both go along with this if the rule of two were in place?  It seems that if it were in place they wouldn't have gone along with it because it could only happen if one of them were killed.

If to make this happen, the Emperor planned on having Darth Vader killed, wouldn't Darth Vader immediately suspect this?   If Darth Vader was the one that planned to have the Emperor killed when making the suggestion, wouldn't the Emperor immediately would have suspected this?  

Also remember is Episode IV where Obi Wan Kenobi said he didn't ever remember owning a droid and it was obvious that he didn't recognize R2D2?  Then in Episode III, they obviously knew each other.   The plot holes in the Star Wars movies were there before Disney.
 

It's really taxing having to explain an entire concept built through decades to somebody who thinks they know what it is because they watched a youTube video and then argues about it.  Phantom Menace - two there always is, a Master and an Apprentice.  Bringing Luke in doesn't break the Rule of Two.  The Sith improves on its power by the Apprentice either becoming better than his Master and finally killing him and taking on a new Apprentice.  Or, if he's not able to do so, the Apprentice is challenged and killed by a new, better Apprentice which would then be the one to challenge the Master.

There are a thousand plot holes in George Lucas movies as well as inconsistencies with the universe and that's not even counting the hideous dialogue, "Anakin, you broke my heart!  You're going on a road I cannot follow."  PUKE!  And the fandom bickering about these things are epic.

But, that doesn't change anything about the characterization of the main cast as well as the rules that govern this fictional universe as well as the terrible treatment of Lucasfilms of the fandom that united all these bickering people into one big voice against Lucasfilms that brought down Solo.

Edited January 16, 2019 by anatess2

[anatess2]

34 minutes ago, bytebear said:

Side note:  The rule of two applied.  For Luke to turn, he had to kill the emperor, and then Vader would become the master.

For Luke to become the Apprentice, he either kills Vader or he helps Vader kill Palpatine.  The test for Luke to kill the Emperor was not a test for Luke but for Vader.  The Emperor knows Luke is not powerful enough to kill him.  But he wants to see if Vader will.

 

34 minutes ago, bytebear said:

Main point:  The Star Wars franchise died for me the day I sat in a theater and watched episode I.  After that I honestly only watched the movies out of loyalty to the original, but honestly, I feel like when you shop at Sears and remember how department stores used to be, and wish they were again.   But they aren't.   Solo was the closest thing so far  though.  Everything else is hollow.

You're not alone.  The OT versus Prequels bickering is legend.  But I'd think you'd be one of those who would like Rogue One.

 

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, unixknight said:

Force Ghost.

They finally do his character justice but as a force ghost and not when he was alive.  Luke Skywalker.  Not the greatest Jedi Master Alive but the greatest Jedi Master Dead.  Ugh.

And Leia... with Carrie Fisher gone, they're gonna bring her in from footage that did not make it to the main cut.  Ugh.  Like, oh these were not good enough to be in the movie but we'll use it now because... we need that massive Skywalker conclusion to make Episode IX money.

It's just... ugh.

[anatess2]

@unixknight, you know what would be cool, though?  If Vader comes back as a Force Ghost.  Not Anakin, because I think the last of the fans will implode if Hayden Christensen shows up (although I really love the guy as Anakin) but Vader.  As a force ghost.  Doing a man-to-man with Kylo smacking his emo bum.

[Fether]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

@unixknight, you know what would be cool, though?  If Vader comes back as a Force Ghost.  Not Anakin, because I think the last of the fans will implode if Hayden Christensen shows up (although I really love the guy as Anakin) but Vader.  As a force ghost.  Doing a man-to-man with Kylo smacking his emo bum.

Kylo: Your my Grandpa Vader!

Anakin: No, I killed your Grandpa Vader

Kylo: NOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[anatess2]

Aaanndd... the Episode IX boycott is on.

See, this is what people like @Scott don't understand.  The Star Wars fandom is what it is because THEY ARE Star Wars.  The Fandom built the expanded universe.  They're not just passive fans where they just wait for the next movie to come out.  No.  They are co-creators of the universe!  Fan fiction is just as much a part of the universe as all the canon.  And they get analyzed and critiqued and built upon just like they are George Lucas' movies.  George Lucas was very tolerant of copyright concerns in fan fiction because it is well-known that fan fiction is not to be monetized. Fan fiction creators and critics are VERY, VERY dedicated to consistency within the universe even as they create this stuff out of their own dime without any expectation of making one cent out of it.  It's like the biggest challenge of creating these stuff is to be able to work within the current universe and have your work remain consistent as the universe expands.  That's their reward for their efforts - that their work stay relevant in the universe.  These stories (the good ones) get passed down to the next generation too!  So, it is completely annoying when you got a fandom that cares that much about the essence of the fiction making zero money out of it and then being offered a multi-million budget movie that doesn't even care about understanding what a lightsaber is or what the force is or what a jedi is that expects a multi-million dollar profit!

So Darth Vader fan fiction got copyright claimed by Warner Chappell/Disney for the music (which the creator hired a composer for and an orchestra with money out of his own pocket to create a Star Wars sounding background music).  That's not the issue... the issue is then Warner Chappell MONETIZED the video and now it has made $80K (That's MORE THAN SOLO!) and all the money - 100% of it - went to Warner Chappell/Disney.

HOW'S THAT FOR SLAP IN THE FACE???

So... the boycott is on.  So if Episode IX is an okay movie but it tanks like Solo, it would be because of a fan backlash against Disney's actions on Shards of the Past.

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by anatess2

[Guest Scott]

59 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Aaanndd... the Episode IX boycott is on.

See, this is what people like @Scott don't understand.  The Star Wars fandom is what it is because THEY ARE Star Wars.  The Fandom built the expanded universe.  They're not just passive fans where they just wait for the next movie to come out.  No.  They are co-creators of the universe!

 

Some of them at least.   You seem to be forgetting that a lot of hard core Star Wars fans despised the EU and said that it was the EU that was ruining Star Wars.  

Some of the things that fans hated:

Luke turns to the dark side (this seems worse than what Episode VII did).  You would know more, but wasn't it revealed that it was really his evil clone or something?  I actually don't know; I just remember that there was a big uproar about it.  

The Emperor had clones himself so he really isn't dead.  I remember the uproar on this too.  

Anyway, there are plenty of fans who despise the EU.

Quote

Fan fiction is just as much a part of the universe as all the canon. 

So, the fans should pool all of their money together and buy a majority share in Disney.

What you don't seem to want to understand is that Disney owns the Star Wars movie franchise.   They can do whatever they want with it.   They don't owe you anything.

If fan fiction is what is important to you, then just focus on that.   Just ignore the Disney movies and focus on the EU or whatever else you want to.  

As for your boycott, that is fine.  You have the right whether or not you watch the movie and food for you if you don't want to see it.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Scott

[NeuroTypical]

37 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Fan fiction creators and critics are VERY, VERY dedicated to consistency within the universe even as they create this stuff out of their own dime without any expectation of making one cent out of it.  It's like the biggest challenge of creating these stuff is to be able to work within the current universe and have your work remain consistent as the universe expands.  That's their reward for their efforts - that their work stay relevant in the universe.  These stories (the good ones) get passed down to the next generation too!  So, it is completely annoying when you got a fandom that cares that much about the essence of the fiction making zero money out of it and then being offered a multi-million budget movie that doesn't even care about understanding what a lightsaber is or what the force is or what a jedi is that expects a multi-million dollar profit!

Yep, this is a common thread through lots of fandoms.  Another gold standard for a growing artist/content creator, is their stuff gets good enough that they get a Cease & Desist order from the show's lawyers.  You'd think the creators would take it as a badge of honor instead of a kick in the teeth, but hey, artists always suffer.

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, Scott said:

Some of them at least.   You seem to be forgetting that a lot of hard core Star Wars fans despised the EU and said that it was the EU that was ruining Star Wars.  

Some of the things that fans hated:

Luke turns to the dark side (this seems worse than what Episode VII did).  You would know more, but wasn't it revealed that it was really his evil clone or something?  I actually don't know; I just remember that there was a big uproar about it.  

The Emperor had clones himself so he really isn't dead.  I remember the uproar on this too.  

Anyway, there are plenty of fans who despise the EU.

So, the fans should pool all of their money together and buy a majority share in Disney.

What you don't seem to want to understand is that Disney owns the Star Wars franchise.   They can do whatever they want with it.   They don't owe you anything.

If fan fiction is what is important to you, then just focus on that.   Just ignore the Disney movies and focus on the EU or whatever else you want to.

You have a funny way of using Majority on that border wall thread and you have a funny way of using Some too.

The Star Wars Fandom is very active.  They bicker all day long like families do.  It's part of being in the fandom.  I told you about my 2 sons - one sides with the Rebellion, one sides with the Empire.  There are those that are OT-only and there are those that are Prequels-only.  There are those who love Ashoka and there are those who hate Ashoka.   There are those who are Orthodox and those who are Expanded Universe.  It is part of the culture.

But "the fandom" agree on one thing - Disney, and more specifically Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy, killed Star Wars.

12 minutes ago, Scott said:

As for your boycott, that is fine.  You have the right whether or not you watch the movie and food for you if you don't want to see it.

My boycott?  You think I'm Star Wars Theory with 1.4M subscribers on YouTube?  You flatter me.  I'm not THAT popular.

 

[Guest Scott]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

But "the fandom" agree on one thing - Disney, and more specifically Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy, killed Star Wars.

OK, but you still haven't answered the question that I have either asked or hinted at many times.

If the above is true, why not just ignore the Disney movies and focus on the EU, old movies, or whatever else you want to focus on?

You say that Star Wars fandom IS Star Wars.   Disney doesn't own Star Wars fandom, so they can't really kill something they don't own.

So why not just ignore the Disney movies?  

[unixknight]

I ignore the EU for any IP, for continuity purposes.  I've read a few pretty good Star Trek novels but I regard them as "what if" stories, for purposes of continuity.

Mind you, Star Trek stinks at continuity anyway.  Futurama is literally more internally consistent than Star Trek is.  

I'm okay with that because Star Trek, at its best, is a collection of separate stories.  (Yes, I know about Deep Space 9.  I stand by what I said.)  Sometimes Vulcan has a moon.  Sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimes   Data uses contractions when he speaks.  Sometimes he doesn't.  

What's an EU but licensed fanfic?  And what's fanfic but "what if" stories written by people who have their own ideas on what makes a good story in this universe with these characters.  Nothing wrong with it, but not something to be committed to either.  Sometimes it's better than official canon, sometimes it's not.  Meh.

I know people who regard themselves as gurus on Star Wars or Star Trek lore because of their extensive knowledge of the EUs for those properties.  I remain unimpressed.  No offense to those fine folks, but all that knowledge is on the precarious knife blade of being rendered obsolete any time some new film or TV series comes out and erases it all.

When I was a kid, I started collecting Star Trek comic books.  There were a ton of different titles under the umbrella of Star Trek because they kept trying to continue the story after the latest film and a couple years later a new film would come out and completely erase the story.  My favorite was one that picked up the story after Star Trek III:  The Search for Spock...

The Klingon Bird of Prey the crew had captured at the Genesis planet, after Enterprise was destroyed, is their ride home, where they will turn themselves in.  U.S.S. Excelsior is sent to rendezvous with them, at which point Kirk and crew are placed under arrest and the Klingon ship is taken in tow by a tractor beam.  

Meanwhile, in the Mirror Universe, Kirk and his crew are using some applied phlebotinum to cross over into the prime universe.  They do so, and see the Excelsior towing the Klingon ship.  Excelsior raises its shields, which also encompasses the Bird of prey.  Evil Kirk, seeing an opening, has Evil Spock hack into the Bird of prey's command console to fire its disruptors at point blank range into Excelsior's unprotected hull.  (Remember, the Bird of prey was inside the Excelsior's shields.) As a result, Excelsior is helpless as the I.S.S. Enterprise moves in for the kill...  [cliffhanger]

That was a WAY better story than the ridiculous whale story we got in Star Trek IV.  But... c'est la vie.  

[anatess2]

32 minutes ago, Scott said:

OK, but you still haven't answered the question that I have either asked or hinted at many times.

If the above is true, why not just ignore the Disney movies and focus on the EU, old movies, or whatever else you want to focus on?

You say that Star Wars fandom IS Star Wars.   Disney doesn't own Star Wars fandom, so they can't really kill something they don't own.

So why not just ignore the Disney movies?  

Why ignore the Disney movies?  There is only one Star Wars Universe.  There is only one Force, one Luke, one meaning of Jedi, one meaning of Lightsaber, etc. etc.  The fandom would rather FIX Star Wars by pushing for influence to put the people that understand what Star Wars is (like Jon Favreau who is currently directing the Mandalorian TV Series) in positions of autonomy from the likes of Kathleen Kennedy.  And the only way a fandom can do that is by hitting them on their financial bottom line.

Edited January 16, 2019 by anatess2

[Guest Scott]

5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 There is only one Star Wars Universe.  

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.  

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Scott said:

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.  

The rule that only the Sith deals in absolutes is a rule canonized within the one and only Star Wars universe.  If there are more than one kind of Star Wars Universe, then the rule that the Sith deals in absolutes becomes in-absolute because the other version of the universe might have the Jedi also deal in absolutes.

Do you see the problem?

Edited January 16, 2019 by anatess2

[unixknight]

7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Why ignore the Disney movies?  There is only one Star Wars Universe.  

See? This is why Star Trek is better.  We have, like.... 2 or 3 now.  

[unixknight]

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.  

Well played, sir.  Well played indeed.  

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

See? This is why Star Trek is better.  We have, like.... 2 or 3 now.  

And that's why Star Trek keeled over and died.  Discovery is in a lawsuit and the movie is cancelled.  It makes us nostalgic for the simpler days of just bickering over Janeway making spaghetti of the space-time continuum...

[unixknight]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And that's why Star Trek keeled over and died.  Discovery is in a lawsuit and the movie is cancelled.  It makes us nostalgic for the simpler days of just bickering over Janeway making spaghetti of the space-time continuum...

I don't think it was the multiple universes that killed it.  It was pathetic management and pandering to SJWs.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, unixknight said:

I don't think it was the multiple universes that killed it.  It was pathetic management and pandering to SJWs.

... the same problem Star Wars is having. 

The Millenials growing up and running (or is it ruining) businesses.

[unixknight]

I've just had an epiphany...

Know what all this SJW nonsense really is?  It's bigotry and segregation.  Yeah, I said it and I MEAN it.  Every SJW is a bigot and segregationalist.

Know why?  Listen to the way they attack movies and TV they've decided isn't diverse enough.  There needs to be more "representation."  So IPs like comic books, Star Wars and Star Trek attempt to placate them by giving them what they want.  It's why We have ever increasing intersectionality in media characters.  It's why the new Iron Man is a black woman.  The new Spider-Man is a latino.  The new Thor is a woman.  Everything has to be "representative."  

You know… separate characters... but equal!

I'm old enough to remember when those things didn't matter.  When we were able to connect with characters in our favorite movies and TV because they were relatable human beings, like all of us.  Who cared that Superman is an alien who looks like a white man?  Everybody wanted to be like him and it didn't matter that he was white.  Go  to a sci fi convention where people do cosplay.  You'll see people of all races dressed as the Last Son of Krypton.  Nobody's walking up to the black man in a Superman suit and telling him he should take it off and put on the costume of some black superhero, like Falcon, Captain America (after Falcon becomes Cap in the comics), Warmachine or Steel.  This guy likes Superman so he dresses as Superman.  What's the freaking problem?

Well, there IS no problem unless you feel like somehow we need a separate but equal superhero for this man to identify with.  So now Star Trek Discovery has to have lots of intersectional characters.... black woman, gay black man, gay white man, Chinese captain... because surely nobody in any of those demographics will watch the show unless they see someone who looks and thinks like they do.  We have a word for that kind of thinking.  Know what it is?  It's 'segregation.'  Why connect with someone who doesn't look just like you when we can convince you that you're being left out unless your mirror image is onscreen? 

So... as a mixed latino man, should I be clamoring for more latino characters now?  Or am I stuck with Miles Morales as Spider-Man?  Am I allowed to like any Star Trek characters other than Commander Chakotay?  Can I like any Star Wars characters besides Poe Dameron?  Or should I be crying because nobody's put a Latino on the bridge of Discovery yet?  

Maybe what's important is that all of these characters are human beings.  And that, we can all relate to... or at least we should, except for all the toxicity that's out there telling us to feel like victims 24/7.  

[Guest Godless]

On 1/15/2019 at 10:35 AM, unixknight said:

Second, and this is the part that bugs me... Han Solo is a character who, when we first meet him in Episode 4, comes across like a guy who's been around the galaxy a few times and has a long and colorful history.  We get hints about that history all through the original trilogy.  What's the Kessel Run?  How did Han and Chewie meet?  What's the history between Han and Lando?  Has he always been a smuggler?  How did he start working for Jabba?  Gee, I bet there's a lot of cool stories to tell about this guy.

Nope.  Just one.  All of that history compressed into one single film.  We learn how Han got his blaster, how he was an Imperial soldier, how he met Chewie, how he met Lando, how he acquired the Falcon, what the Kessel Run is...  (Mind you, I have the exact same complaint about the prologue to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where we learn that in one single Boy Scout adventure, Indy acquired his snake phobia, his affinity for a bullwhip, his hat, and his personal style as an adventurer archaeologist.  WHAT IS IT WITH YOUR CHARACTERS, HARRISON FORD???)

So where else is there to  go with this character?  Had these latest Star Wars movies done well, what else could they have done with Solo to fill this stuff in?  I guess we could have had the story of how he got on Jabba's bad side but...   *sigh*.  It feels like they were trying to cram it all in out of a fear that this movie wouldn't get a "sequel."  

I think there's still more stories to tell about Solo. As far as I'm aware, there's no timeline given from the time he met Jabba to the beginning of Episode IV. Plenty could have happened in that span. Yes, the major elements of his character have been addressed, but there is still a significant time period that hasn't been covered.

On 1/15/2019 at 11:37 AM, anatess2 said:

And then there's the stupid droid.  Fine if you make a stupid droid.  I make fun of how they make C3PO stupid.  But now, that stupid droid is the heart and brain of the most loved spaceship, the one and only, the epic symbol of the Star Wars Universe... the Millenium Falcon.  So yeah, way to destroy the Millenium Falcon, mates.

I have to disagree with you here. L3 was annoying, but her integration into the Falcon's nav computer is what makes the ship so special. I thought that was a really neat element to throw into the canon. 

21 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

If you were a real fan, you would have been this ticked off after midichloriants and JarJar. 

[runs and hides behind something]

Fun fact: apparently if Lucas hadn't sold to Disney, his plan for episodes VII - IX would have involved going even MORE in depth into the nature of midichlorians and the mechanics of how the force works. I read an article about it, and I'll try to dig it up later when I'm not at work.

 

[anatess2]

18 minutes ago, Godless said:

I have to disagree with you here. L3 was annoying, but her integration into the Falcon's nav computer is what makes the ship so special. I thought that was a really neat element to throw into the canon. 

Integrating say, an R2D2, into the Falcon would be special.  Integrating L3 into the Falcon making it the thing that makes it special just makes the Falcon stupid and lose its "specialness".  It's not the integration that is the issue... it's WHAT got integrated into it that ruins it.

In any case, the Millenium Falcon did not need anything to make it special.  Solo and Chewie and their combined banging made it special.  So like when TFA had Rey whizzing the Falcon around with Fin, it was, uhm, okay.  Then Solo and Chewie enter the Falcon and there you get the Whoa.  So, adding this integration tidbit is unnecessary in the whole scheme of things.

Edited January 16, 2019 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

40 minutes ago, Godless said:

Fun fact: apparently if Lucas hadn't sold to Disney, his plan for episodes VII - IX would have involved going even MORE in depth into the nature of midichlorians and the mechanics of how the force works. 

Yep.  The going notion that I adopt, is Disney paid $500 mil for StarWars, and $3500 mil to get Lucas to agree to stay the crap away from it forever.

Edited January 16, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

47 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yep.  The going notion that I adopt, is Disney paid $500 mil for StarWars, and $3500 mil to get Lucas to agree to stay the crap away from it forever.

And Lucas gladly took the money, laughed his way to the bank and said... glad to finally get out of that hornet's nest.    He's had his rounds with the fandom too even as the fandom have high respect and gratitude for the guy and continued to give him their money.

[unixknight]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So Darth Vader fan fiction got copyright claimed by Warner Chappell/Disney for the music (which the creator hired a composer for and an orchestra with money out of his own pocket to create a Star Wars sounding background music).  That's not the issue... the issue is then Warner Chappell MONETIZED the video and now it has made $80K (That's MORE THAN SOLO!) and all the money - 100% of it - went to Warner Chappell/Disney.

HOW'S THAT FOR SLAP IN THE FACE???

So... the boycott is on.  So if Episode IX is an okay movie but it tanks like Solo, it would be because of a fan backlash against Disney's actions on Shards of the Past.

 

Aaaand Victory!

Lucasfilm leaned on Chappell and made them withdraw the claim.