Why the Fight Over the Wall Matters


unixknight
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4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

He says it will happen.  The Dems are saying it would be illegal.  That would be all we need, for the House Legislative Counsel to file for a court injunction stopping the IRS from processing refunds. ;) 

Now, the 64 thousand dollar question for me is, if it's after April 15...  do I get to wait until the government shutdown ends before I need to send in my tax payment...

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7 minutes ago, pam said:

Personally having grown up about 5 miles from the Mexican border, the wall is a waste of money.

These guys would disagree with you. 

But would you look at that... it's a news story from 2011 when you still had sanity in the news.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45440385/ns/nbc_nightly_news_with_brian_williams/t/along-mexican-border-us-ranchers-say-they-live-fear/#.XD6wG1VKjX4

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14 minutes ago, pam said:

Personally having grown up about 5 miles from the Mexican border, the wall is a waste of money.

which side? I imagine one's perspective could vary quite a bit depending on which side they were on. 

Edited by askandanswer
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11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

He says it will happen.  The Dems are saying it would be illegal.  That would be all we need, for the House Legislative Counsel to file for a court injunction stopping the IRS from processing refunds. ;) 

That would be an early (late?) Christmas gift from Democrats to the President.

During Government shutdowns, Democrats make it painful to make people miss the Government and its services.  Republicans take the opposite approach, because statistically their supporters are less reliant on Government services and thus, less likely to get mad.

When Obama was in the White House during a shutdown, he tried to make it hurt as much as possible by shutting down everything he could, including Federally administered public parks.  That Included the monuments in D.C.  I remember the news footage showing a bunch of WWII vets pushing aside the barricades to visit the WWII Memorial.  Wisely, nobody stopped them.  (The WWII Memorial is an open air series of structures.  There's no staff, no facilities, no nothing that would need to be paid for to keep it running.  It was only being closed off as part of the strategy to make it hurt.

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Guest MormonGator
10 hours ago, pam said:

Personally having grown up about 5 miles from the Mexican border, the wall is a waste of money.

Yup. I'm amazed that people who are generally against big government are now embracing this huge government project. 

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10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yup. I'm amazed that people who are generally against big government are now embracing this huge government project. 

Seriously, dude?  Don't be naive.  People who are against big government don't want Border Security?  In what planet?  You can't have a small government if you have no control over your population size and a tight lid on law and order.  Small government Conservatives PASSED the border legislation that includes a barrier back when Reagan was still President!  Reagan bargained for it with the Amnesty deal.  "We'll make all the illegals that are currently in the US citizens if you agree to border security legislation and a barrier".  Amnesty happened, border security didn't and now the US has 15 million new illegal immigrants that are whining for Amnesty, the same people who want to convert the USA into a Socialist Utopia.

Every single President since then - Republican or Democrat - promised to finally build that promised barrier.  Nobody was ever serious about it outside of campaigning on it to be elected.  Until Trump.  Because Trump can't be bought.  El Chapo had Nieto in his pocket.  It wouldn't be a surprise if he had Bush and Obama in it too.

Edited by anatess2
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Guest Godless
20 hours ago, unixknight said:

This is NOT about the Wall itself.  The same politicians who are screaming about how immoral it is now were the ones who were calling for tighter border security before Trump became President.  They oppose it because they oppose him.  Period.   

They oppose the wall because the wall is stupid. They don't oppose tighter border security. The wall is simply one specific aspect of securing the border, and it's one that many people (including some on the right) think is a waste of money that could be used to open more border patrol stations and hire more agents.

18 hours ago, unixknight said:

I wouldn't bet on that.  If the President does that, he'll be doing exactly the sort of thing we've criticized Obama for.  One of Obama's biggest faults was h is tendency to override the Congress to press his agenda.  If Trump does it too, he'll lose a LOT of Conservatives.

I dunno. Seems like Trump has been getting free passes for quite a few things that Obama never could have pulled off. Can you imagine the reaction if Obama had raised tariffs on Chinese and Mexican imports? If he had talked about NATO the way Trump does? If he had set up a buffet of fast food for the Clemson Tigers? I think Trump using emergency powers to build the wall gets you the usual rage from the left and the usual Wonka-esque "Stop, don't do that" from the right.

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4 minutes ago, Godless said:

They oppose the wall because the wall is stupid.

Ok.  I need some help understanding this.

Let's say you're right.  They honestly believe the wall is stupid.  And let's even agree that it is correct to believe so.  Help me understand the following?

Why did a large number of Democrats vote to fund a large portion of the wall just a few years ago? 

Why have several of them said that it was absolutely necessary?  Including Barak Obama?

Why did the entire country go along with it when the Democrats said it?  But Democrats oppose the exact same measure when Trump is doing it?

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8 minutes ago, Godless said:

They oppose the wall because the wall is stupid. They don't oppose tighter border security. The wall is simply one specific aspect of securing the border, and it's one that many people (including some on the right) think is a waste of money that could be used to open more border patrol stations and hire more agents.

Reaaaalllyyy... Who are this THEY you're talking about?  Democrats?  RINO's?  Tighter border security in what manner?  Abolishing ICE?  Sanctuary cities?  Welfare for illegal immigrants?  Support for caravans?  Running propaganda over children in detention?  Accusing border security of killing migrant children?  Filing your nails while somebody talks about people killed by illegal immigrants?  Appropriating $150M to fund Jordan's border wall?

That kind of border security?

8 minutes ago, Godless said:

I dunno. Seems like Trump has been getting free passes for quite a few things that Obama never could have pulled off. Can you imagine the reaction if Obama had raised tariffs on Chinese and Mexican imports? If he had talked about NATO the way Trump does? If he had set up a buffet of fast food for the Clemson Tigers? I think Trump using emergency powers to build the wall gets you the usual rage from the left and the usual Wonka-esque "Stop, don't do that" from the right.

Free passes?  Now you're just being a comedian.  Trump.  The guy that has 93% negative news coverage where they fact check his hyperbolic statement that "burgers were piled a mile high" complete with measurements on how tall a boxed burger stands.  And a DOJ opening a special counsel investigation because he joked about telling Russia to give the press Hillary's missing emails.  That kind of pass?

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Guest MormonGator
32 minutes ago, Godless said:

it's one that many people (including some on the right) think is a waste of money that could be used to open more border patrol stations and hire more agents.

Yup. 

There are many issues with "the wall". 1) It'll probably never be built. 2) If it is built, it'll be torn down when a democrat gets in office. So it'll be a massive waste. 

The other more disgusting aspect to the wall? Republicans want it because they know illegal immigrants generally vote for democrats. Democrats don't want it because they know illegal immigrants will generally vote for democrats. I get it, your (generic!) side is noble, pure and all that is holy and the other side is sheer evil, but that's not reality. 

So I think you (generic) are lying to yourself if you don't see the practical politics of it. 

Edited by MormonGator
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21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yup. 

There are many issues with "the wall". 1) It'll probably never be built. 2) If it is built, it'll be torn down when a democrat gets in office. So it'll be a massive waste. 

The other more disgusting aspect to the wall? Republicans want it because they know illegal immigrants generally vote for democrats. Democrats don't want it because they know illegal immigrants will generally vote for democrats. I get it, your (generic!) side is noble, pure and all that is holy and the other side is sheer evil, but that's not reality. 

So I think you (generic) are lying to yourself if you don't see the practical politics of it. 

I don't think it'd be torn down.  As @Carborendum mentioned, lots of prominent Democrat politicos supported the idea before, and switched positions recently.  When the next Democrat President is in office, the current motive for opposing it will have gone.

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22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yup. 

There are many issues with "the wall". 1) It'll probably never be built. 2) If it is built, it'll be torn down when a democrat gets in office. So it'll be a massive waste. 

The other more disgusting aspect to the wall? Republicans want it because they know illegal immigrants generally vote for democrats. Democrats don't want it because they know illegal immigrants will generally vote for democrats. I get it, your (generic!) side is noble, pure and all that is holy and the other side is sheer evil, but that's not reality. 

So I think you (generic) are lying to yourself if you don't see the practical politics of it. 

Americans want it because ILLEGAL immigrants VOTE.  Among other criminal things!

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31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Americans want it because ILLEGAL immigrants VOTE.  Among other criminal things!

My father is an immigrant who entered the U.S. legally.  He never became a citizen but he remained a legal resident from then on.  

Oddly, he also supports illegal immigration.  I don't understand why.  All of his arguments are weird and illogical.  Chief among them was the "Well they're not hurting anybody!  Mostly they're just law abiding people trying to work and gave a good life."

Well, no dad.  They're not law abiding.  By definition they're not law abiding, since they've already ignored the law at least once because it was convenient to do so.

He also argued that they pay Social Security and taxes, and it's unfair because they're not eligible to get those Social Security benefits later.  (This is in cases where employers were hiring illegals without checking their background.  The result was that yes, they paid into these things.)

But that isn't the majority.  The majority are paid under the table, especially after the law tightened down on this stuff.  Pretty sure those getting paid cash under the table weren't filing taxes.  As for the unfairness of paying into a system they won't benefit from?  Well follow the ^%@ law.  Mind you, I probably won't see benefits from all my SS payments either, so welcome to the club... and I AM a citizen of the United States.

And now there are people who are calling for illegals to have voting rights... People who entered illegally.  Idiocracy is here.

Edited by unixknight
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Guest MormonGator
28 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I don't think it'd be torn down.  As @Carborendum mentioned, lots of prominent Democrat politicos supported the idea before, and switched positions recently.  When the next Democrat President is in office, the current motive for opposing it will have gone.

I don't see it that way. As the democrats move to the left, anything that has the stigma of "Trump" on it will be a target. Even people who don't follow politics much associate Trump with the wall. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I don't see it that way. As the democrats move to the left, anything that has the stigma of "Trump" on it will be a target. Even people who don't follow politics much associate Trump with the wall. 

You might be right.  Maybe it depends on how much of the rhetoric from Democrat politicos is sincere and how much of it is just playing to the base.

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From a non-partisan standpoint, here are my thoughts on the wall:

I agree that people should immigrate here legally, but the wall seems like a waste.

Most illegal immigrants are those who overextend their work visas. The wall won't stop the majority of illegal immigrants. As a civil engineer (highways, but we built a lot of walls), I'm also very skeptical that it could be done for the cost that politicians are claiming. I'm betting that, if such a wall is built and it is to be effective that it will cost over $100 billion. 

I also believe that we should do more to curb illegal immigration, but although effective at the border itself I don't know if a secured concrete wall is the best choice.

At least some of Trump's current prototype walls are more of a fence than a wall.   They can easily be breached.

Here's another problem with the wall.    It would take a a lot of Eminent Domain.   The government would have to take a lot of property from private citizens to build the wall.   I wonder how many conservatives have thought this issue through?    If the wall is built, thousands of private citizens are going to have their land taken away (though they will be compensated).   I work do highway engineering and like a highway, I can promise you that you can't build the wall without taking people's property away.  

Anyway, as far as illegal immigration itself goes, it has both negative and positives.   The negative is of course the cost.  The positive (from a US standpoint) are things like that if an illegal immigrant works for a valid company, that he or she pays into social security, but can't collect any benefits.  

More effective than a wall (though a fence is still needed in many areas), especially since most illegal immigrants are those who extended their work visas is to go after individuals and companies that knowingly hire illegal immigrants. Right now the penalty (if even assessed) is $250 to $2000.  Penalties of more than a slap on the wrist are seldom assessed.

Of note, let's not forget that the Mormon Pioneers immigrated to the Salt Lake Valley illegally.   It seems that that is often forgotten.  

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Guest MormonGator
3 minutes ago, Scott said:

  It would take a a lot of Eminent Domain.   

Great point. Eminent Domain is a necessary evil, but when it's our property that going to be taken we forget about the "necessary" part. 

And lest we forget, Trump has a history of trying to use it for his own benefit. Google "Vera Coking" 

Edited by MormonGator
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12 minutes ago, Scott said:

Most illegal immigrants are those who overextend their work visas. The wall won't stop the majority of illegal immigrants.

You have a funny way of using majority.

The Center of Migration Studies report estimated visa overstays in 2014 accounted for 42 percent of the illegal immigrant population.

So... because ONLY 58% of migrants jump the border, then there's no point in stopping them.  So... what's your magic number?  60%?  80%?  99%?  before you think a barrier will be worth it?

P.S.  Just so the Southern border is put into context... 47% of that 58% number comes from just 2 of the border states - Texas and California.

Edited by anatess2
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The Border Patrol seems to think the Wall is a good idea.  Kinda hard to argue with the guys who deal with these issues every day.

And for the "The cost of the Wall is a waste" crowd... How is providing welfare services for illegals less of a waste?

Edited by unixknight
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7 minutes ago, unixknight said:

And for the "The cost of the Wall is a waste" crowd... How is providing welfare services for illegals less of a waste?

It is if the wall is to be effective.   An effective wall would likely cost at least $100 billion and would probably be a lot more than that.  

 

Edited by Scott
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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, unixknight said:

The Border Patrol seems to think the Wall is a good idea.  Kinda hard to argue with the guys who deal with these issues every day.

And for the "The cost of the Wall is a waste" crowd... How is providing welfare services for illegals less of a waste?

We need sweeping welfare reform that's for sure. 

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