NeuroTypical

Thanks, anti-vax movement...

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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/nyregion/measles-outbreak-jews-nyc.html

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There have been no deaths in the outbreak, but there have been a few serious cases in young children that required hospitalization.

I'm sure it will take some funerals before some folks will consider that maybe a tiny risk of usually-minor reaction for everyone, is better than burying children.

 

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Measles is one of the most contagious infections and can live for up to two hours in the airspace where an infected person breathed, coughed or sneezed. It usually affects children, and symptoms include high fever and a rash of red spots all over the body, as well as a cough and runny nose. Some 90 percent of unvaccinated people exposed in proximity to an infected person will get it.

When I'm emperor of the world, anyone who spends more than two brain cells arguing with something like this, will be subject to summary noogies, to be administered by a trained ape.  Anyone who uses the word "autism" in their argument, will get triple the noogies.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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A couple years back, on my gaming club's message board, we had a discussion about this stuff.  Nobody was arguing the "vaccinations cause autism" stuff, but I was on the side that says people have a right to choose how to raise their kids, and if they want to take that risk... 

The other side started out with the premise "We wouldn't want to use Government force to make people take vaccines.  We just want to educate."  Which is a perfectly reasonable stance and one that I'd agree with, so imagine my confusion that they were arguing the point of whether people really do have the right to choose to vaccinate or not.  Eventually, they showed their true colors when they came out with their honest argument, which was that yes, the Government should force vaccination, regardless of the reasons people might give not to. 

I'm all Libertarian on this one.  If members of this Jewish community want to avoid vaccines, even if their reasoning is flawed, then they're taking their chances.  It sounds like community leaders are trying to get rid of the bad information, so I say let the process happen.  

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5 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I'm all Libertarian on this one.  If members of this Jewish community want to avoid vaccines, even if their reasoning is flawed, then they're taking their chances.  

So, how do you feel about your restaurant staff not washing their hands after using the bathroom?

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22 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

When I'm emperor of the world,

I'm going to dethrone you by violent revolution (nothing personal). My first decree would be to force children to be vaccinated or be put up for adoption. 

Other than that I'm making it a libertarian paradise. :)

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17 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, how do you feel about your restaurant staff not washing their hands after using the bathroom?

Having a policy at a job ain't the same thing as Government intrusion.  There are plenty of jobs out there that require vaccinations, as does enrollment in colleges and universities.

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Just now, unixknight said:

Having a policy at a job ain't the same thing as Government intrusion.  There are plenty of jobs out there that require vaccinations, as does enrollment in colleges and universities.

Ok, but that's not what I'm asking.  I'm asking you, how do you personally feel about your restaurant staff not washing their hands after using the bathroom?  Don't care?  Would report violations?  If you saw it happening enough would you stop going there?  

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1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Ok, but that's not what I'm asking.  I'm asking you, how do you personally feel about your restaurant staff not washing their hands after using the bathroom?  Don't care?  Would report violations?  If you saw it happening enough would you stop going there?  

I'd say something to the manager and if that didn't resolve it, I'd eat elsewhere.

(I misunderstood the context of your question at first.  When it said "your restaurant staff" I took it as if I were the owner.)

Edited by unixknight

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10 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I'd say something to the manager and if that didn't resolve it, I'd eat elsewhere.

Again, a fair answer.

So, looking for logical consistencies here. 

1- You'd prefer not to eat at a restaurant where the staff didn't wash their hands after using the restroom.  Chance of it impacting your health, quite close to zero. 
2- You'd prefer [insert your answer here] around people who don't vaccinate their children against measles.  "One of the most contagious infections and can live for up to two hours in the airspace where an infected person breathed".  Chance of it impacting your health, also quite close to zero, but with more serious negatives possible if it does.

I'd like to hear your libertarian answer.  

Edited by NeuroTypical

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1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Again, a fair answer.

So, looking for logical consistencies here. 

1- You'd prefer not to eat at a restaurant where the staff didn't wash their hands. 
2- You'd prefer [insert your answer here] around people who don't vaccinate their children against measles.  "One of the most contagious infections and can live for up to two hours in the airspace where an infected person breathed"

I'd like to hear your libertarian answer.  

'kay.

For starters, my kids are vaccinated, so for me personally, it's a non-issue.  

On the other hand, if for some reason I chose not to do that then sure, it takes a risk.  I suppose in that case I'd have to come up with some kind of plan to avoid letting them be exposed to the best of my ability.  

The reason I'd be against Government force to vaccinate kids is because of the camel's nose in the tent argument.  If the Government can dictate vaccinations, then that logic can be used to justify just about anything.  Here are some examples...

"The Government has the right to protect the community from contagious disease like the Measles, so it's acceptable to force vaccinations, religious objections notwithstanding." leads to...

  • The Government has the right to force a blood transfusion if doctors decide a kid needs it.  Sorry, Jehovah's Witnesses.
  • The Government has the right to enable a teenager to get an abortion over the parents' objections (Already implemented in many places in the U.S.)
  • The Government has the right to dictate childrens' diets to avoid childhood diabetes, obesity and other health issues.  Sorry, members of any religion with dietary guidelines you don't get a say.
  • The Government has the right to choose what surgeries, medications, therapies and treatments your kids get.  No, you don't get a say.

I know that looks like a slippery slope argument... But it isn't a fallacy if there's a history supporting the idea that such a thing will happen.  As I mentioned, some states don't allow parental consent or knowledge if a minor seeks abortion, birth control, etc.  regardless of age.  (Lookin' at you, Maryland.  I hate this place.)  In England, there's the well known case of Charlie Guard, who died under nationalized healthcare despite the parents' efforts to have the child moved elsewhere where he could have gotten additional treatment pro bono.  There are laws on the books regulating the size of soft drinks in NYC, as well as the contents of vending machines in schools.  It's also not unprecedented to have cases where medical professionals have sought, and been granted, injunctions against parents to prevent them from seeking alternative treatment.

Remember Hillary Clinton's "It takes a Village?"  She wasn't talking about putting up playgrounds.

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10 minutes ago, unixknight said:

 

"The Government has the right to protect the community from contagious disease like the Measles, so it's acceptable to force vaccinations, religious objections notwithstanding." leads to...

  • The Government has the right to force a blood transfusion if doctors decide a kid needs it.  Sorry, Jehovah's Witnesses.
  • The Government has the right to enable a teenager to get an abortion over the parents' objections (Already implemented in many places in the U.S.)
  • The Government has the right to dictate childrens' diets to avoid childhood diabetes, obesity and other health issues.  Sorry, members of any religion with dietary guidelines you don't get a say.
  • The Government has the right to choose what surgeries, medications, therapies and treatments your kids get.  No, you don't get a say.

I know that looks like a slippery slope argument...

Ugh.  This is so not in the same concept as vaccinations.

When you refuse vaccinations the risk is not just ON YOU.  If it was, nobody would care.  You chose to die, your call.  BUT, this is not the end of the story.   The risk is the contagion staying alive in society putting people who can't get vaccinated at risk and at the same time risking the thing to mutate into a form that renders the vaccinations ineffective.

No kid has ever died because his neighbor has childhood diabetes.

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Just now, anatess2 said:

Ugh.  This is so not in the same concept as vaccinations.

When you refuse vaccinations the risk is not just ON YOU.  If it was, nobody would care.  You chose to die, your call.  BUT, this is not the end of the story.   The risk is the contagion staying alive in society putting people who can't get vaccinated at risk and at the same time risking the thing to mutate into a form that renders the vaccinations ineffective.

No kid has ever died because his neighbor has childhood diabetes.

Ugh.  Yes it is.

Medical decisions are the most personal, most private decisions we make.  The argument that an unvaccinated kid is a public health risk is a pretty weak one compared to the result of setting a precedent that the Government can force your medical choices.  

It's easy to be okay with it when you're making the same decision the Government would have you make anyway.  What about those who don't?  Are the ingredients of vaccines kosher?  (I don't know if they are or not.)  What about vegans?  Many vaccines contain egg whites.  What about other religious groups who may have moral objections for whatever reason?  Are you ready to chip away at the First Amendment?

Not me.  I wouldn't knock on my neighbor's door and tell him what to do with his kids' medical decisions, regardless of his beliefs.

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6 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I wouldn't knock on my neighbor's door and tell him what to do with his kids' medical decisions, regardless of his beliefs.

What if your neighbor's kid gave your kid measles? Would you still respect his right to put the public in danger? At what point does public well-being outweigh personal liberty? I agree that it's a very fine line to walk. But at some point public safety has to trump personal liberty. 

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2 minutes ago, Godless said:

What if your neighbor's kid gave your kid measles? Would you still respect his right to put the public in danger? At what point does public well-being outweigh personal liberty? I agree that it's a very fine line to walk. But at some point public safety has to trump personal liberty. 

Like I said above, if my kids weren't vaccinated for whatever reason then it would fall to me to take precautions to prevent that.

Let's keep in mind that the reason for the outbreak in the OP's article was that people weren't getting vaccinated due to ignorance of the actual safety of vaccines.  Part of the Libertarian philosophy is that we all have individual liberty, but there's also a responsibility to be informed.  In my view, the breakdown in this community in Brooklyn has more to do with harmful misinformation than Libertarian ideals.  Community leaders don't seem to be expressing any religious objection, so the problem is entirely knowledge-based.

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23 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Ugh.  Yes it is.

Medical decisions are the most personal, most private decisions we make.  The argument that an unvaccinated kid is a public health risk is a pretty weak one compared to the result of setting a precedent that the Government can force your medical choices.  

It's easy to be okay with it when you're making the same decision the Government would have you make anyway.  What about those who don't?  Are the ingredients of vaccines kosher?  (I don't know if they are or not.)  What about vegans?  Many vaccines contain egg whites.  What about other religious groups who may have moral objections for whatever reason?  Are you ready to chip away at the First Amendment?

Not me.  I wouldn't knock on my neighbor's door and tell him what to do with his kids' medical decisions, regardless of his beliefs.

I'm not arguing over the issue with government control.  I'm arguing over comparing the Measles with Childhood Diabetes.

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Point in Unixknight's favor:

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html

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Q: Could I still get measles if I am fully vaccinated?

A: Very few people—about three out of 100—who get two doses of measles vaccine will still get measles if exposed to the virus. Experts aren’t sure why. It could be that their immune systems didn’t respond as well as they should have to the vaccine. But the good news is, fully vaccinated people who get measles are much more likely to have a milder illness. And fully vaccinated people are also less likely to spread the disease to other people, including people who can’t get vaccinated because they are too young or have weakened immune systems.

 

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

When you refuse vaccinations the risk is not just ON YOU.  If it was, nobody would care.

I've had plenty of fit people fall on me (some with quite a lot of help) without serious injury to myself.  However, a 350+ pound person would be a much more significant risk.  Therefore morbidly obese people should be incarcerated and forced to lose weight for my safety.

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I love freedom. It's what America's all about. However, ANTIVAX is not religion, it's really bad, dangerous superstition mixed with quasi-political conspiracies. The kicker is that yes, it puts our children at risk. To my thinking (chaplain's protect-religious-liberty prime directive in action) Jehovah's Witnesses are the middle ground issue. They have a sincere religious belief that blood transfusions violate the Old Testament prohibition against "consuming blood." That is a fascinating debate where this issue of individual liberty vs. public interest in protecting children match up 50/50 IMHO. ANTIVAX falls way short of the Jehovah's Witness stance. Children who are not vaccinated should be required to be homeschooled, with regular visits by social workers. This is not as draconian as it sounds, since most school districts offer online academies free of charge. The families could even be given the outdated laptops teachers turn in every so often, for new ones.

Edited by prisonchaplain

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1 hour ago, NightSG said:

I've had plenty of fit people fall on me (some with quite a lot of help) without serious injury to myself.  However, a 350+ pound person would be a much more significant risk.  Therefore morbidly obese people should be incarcerated and forced to lose weight for my safety.

As libertarian as you are (or are you?  I might not have remembered that correctly, but I'll run with it anyway), you wouldn't dream of working on a job where you are forced to lift a 350+ pound person if you don't want to.  Now try avoiding measles.  Or the zombie apocalypse.

Edited by anatess2

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1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

I love freedom. It's what America's all about. However, ANTIVAX is not religion, it's really bad, dangerous superstition mixed with quasi-political conspiracies.

Amen bud. 

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6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does anybody know of an antivaxer who is prepare to meet the medical expenses caused by their refusal to vaccinate? 

I don't know any, but I suspect that they do more often than you'd think.  

Realtalk:  I agree that it's incredibly foolish in 2019 to still believe the fake studies linking autism to vaccines.  The evidence debunking that is everywhere and easy to find.  We all here seem to agree on that.

That said... if, for whatever reason, a person finds that stuff compelling enough to avoid vaccinating their kids, they honestly believe they're acting in their child's best interests.  That's still better parenting than a lot of cases out there.  Are they wrong?  Yes.  Are they doing their best, as they see it?  Yeah.  I believe they are.  And that usually means they know the risks and are doing what they can to mitigate them.  

I'm not defending people who refuse to vaccinate.  I'm just trying to keep the focus where it belongs:  On a lack of education.

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27 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I'm not defending people who refuse to vaccinate.  I'm just trying to keep the focus where it belongs:  On a lack of education.

Lack of education, or miseducation, or urban legends disguised as education and reinforced by foolish cultural pressures.  Yep.

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1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Lack of education, or miseducation, or urban legends disguised as education and reinforced by foolish cultural pressures.  Yep.

It's also a distrust of mainstream medicine. Which is odd, given how much mainstream medicine has enriched our lives. 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

It's also a distrust of mainstream medicine. Which is odd, given how much mainstream medicine has enriched our lives. 

Yeah... that's where it starts to really go into the reeds with conspiracy theory.  I have lots of issues with the administrative side of our healthcare system, but the technology, procedures and care itself is top notch.  Not perfect, but way better than it gets credit for.

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19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Lack of education, or miseducation, or urban legends disguised as education and reinforced by foolish cultural pressures.

I feel like the real problem is that there is so much false material out there in general, and many people accept a combination of true and false things.  For example:  Someone who thinks vaccination is necessary and rejects that it is linked to autism, might also believe that global warming / climate change is a real danger to the people of the earth, or that there are more than two genders, or that overpopulation of the earth is a real problem, etc, etc, etc.  Any number of people can believe in any number of true and false things, and they are all seeking to implement legislation to force other people to abide what they believe.  I am not arguing for or against vaccination, just making a point that 'foolish cultural pressures' and lack of education do much more than affect the vaccine issue.

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