NeuroTypical

Thanks, anti-vax movement...

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On 1/18/2019 at 8:50 AM, person0 said:

I feel like the real problem is that there is so much false material out there in general, and many people accept a combination of true and false things.  For example:  Someone who thinks vaccination is necessary and rejects that it is linked to autism, might also believe that global warming / climate change is a real danger to the people of the earth, or that there are more than two genders, or that overpopulation of the earth is a real problem, etc, etc, etc.  Any number of people can believe in any number of true and false things, and they are all seeking to implement legislation to force other people to abide what they believe.  I am not arguing for or against vaccination, just making a point that 'foolish cultural pressures' and lack of education do much more than affect the vaccine issue.

I agree with you in principle, and the antivax groups are some of the most foolish out there. My field is healthcare, and there is not 1 study anywhere by anyone that actually links vaccinations to Autism. Not one. Some may say that they "think" there is a connection, or a connection is "plausible", but I can also say that people don't gain weight from eating too much...it's from the kind of toothpaste that they use. To me antivax is way more phony than global warming...but not near as phony as multiple genders. We can think whatever we want, but the fact remains that there is no evidence that Autism can be caused by vaccinations. And, even if it was proven in the future, the benefits of getting rid of debilitating diseases far outweigh the risks. Far left groups just want everyone to be "Au Naturale". If vaccines did cause autism then why don't more kids have it? Vaccination rates are decreasing, yet Autism is rising...to me that actually bolsters the pro-vaccination argument. "wo unto them that call evil good, and good evil..."

Edited by scottyg
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I once saw the most delightful and entertaining Facebook argument. A mom group, so gird your loins. A antivaxx mom said she realized perfectly well that autism wasn't caused by vaccines, she didn't trust vaccines because of A, B, and C, and no one in the antivaxx still believed in the autism connection. She was viciously attacked by many moms who still believed the autism connection.

Last year I had a student who was a bit of a funny one. His mom was as crunchy as all get-out, never vaccinated, sent him with home prepared organic meals, natural medicines, you name it. Well, my funny student was eventually diagnosed with autism that year. His poor mom was a wreck, mourning how she had done everything possible to prevent autism, how could this have happened?

I'm not strictly speaking on the all-must-vaccinate side, though if you make allowance for "We have legitimate medical documentation saying we shouldn't be vaccinated", I suppose I am.

And lastly, I'm tired of being told to "do what is right for my family" and to "pray about it" and if my research and prayer wound up with vaccinating, well, not everyone is at the same level of inspiration. Sigh.

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22 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Point in Unixknight's favor:

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html

 

Uh, 3% isn't "very few" in immunology terms.  Only marketing terms.

Do the math; 3% of the US population is about 10 million people.  They're saying that even if every single person in the US was vaccinated we could still have an outbreak that would make 14th century Europe look tame by comparison.

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35 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Uh, 3% isn't "very few" in immunology terms.  Only marketing terms.

Do the math; 3% of the US population is about 10 million people.  They're saying that even if every single person in the US was vaccinated we could still have an outbreak that would make 14th century Europe look tame by comparison.

Important to quote all of the relevant stuff:  "But the good news is, fully vaccinated people who get measles are much more likely to have a milder illness."    Also: "And fully vaccinated people are also less likely to spread the disease to other people, including people who can’t get vaccinated because they are too young or have weakened immune systems."

So, basically, no, the CDC is NOT saying if everyone was vaccinated we could have an outbreak that would make 14th century Europe look lame by comparison.  Although that 3% is always there, we still declared the US measles-free in 2000, and that stayed true until recent years.

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4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Important to quote all of the relevant stuff:  "But the good news is, fully vaccinated people who get measles are much more likely to have a milder illness."    Also: "And fully vaccinated people are also less likely to spread the disease to other people, including people who can’t get vaccinated because they are too young or have weakened immune systems."

They conveniently don't quantify "milder" or "less likely."  CDC is supposed to be using real scientific data, so where are the actual numbers?

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, basically, no, the CDC is NOT saying if everyone was vaccinated we could have an outbreak that would make 14th century Europe look lame by comparison.

Of course they're also not saying "we're a marginally useful organization mainly created to absorb tax dollars and get quail to make porn on cocaine."  That would hurt their funding.  Then who would pay them millions to study fat lesbians?

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

  Although that 3% is always there, we still declared the US measles-free in 2000, and that stayed true until recent years.

Yeah, the same Great and Holy "We" declared a lot of things about interstate commerce, abortion, gender and marriage that don't hold much water either.

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13 hours ago, NightSG said:

Uh, 3% isn't "very few" in immunology terms.  Only marketing terms.

Do the math; 3% of the US population is about 10 million people.  They're saying that even if every single person in the US was vaccinated we could still have an outbreak that would make 14th century Europe look tame by comparison.

If all  those people were in the same place, yeah.  They aren't though.  Herd immunity is a useful thing.

Edited by unixknight

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9 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

People who don’t vaccinate are guilty of child abuse. You could kill your kid. Don’t act like an idiot, vaccinate your kids.

...and people who let their children out of the house into motor vehicles and riding in airplanes are guilty of child abuse because, after all, they could die. People that let their children eat sugary cereals and meat are guilty of child abuse because they are setting them up for diseases which will eventually kill them. People who don't let them out are stifling them and not allowing them to develop socially and are also inflicting abuse. You sure better not let them go skiing or swimming because, you know, death.

Don't act like an idiot and demonize everyone who has a different view of the risks and rewards over life decisions because they don't align with your own.

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3 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

...and people who let their children out of the house into motor vehicles and riding in airplanes are guilty of child abuse because, after all, they could die. People that let their children eat sugary cereals and meat are guilty of child abuse because they are setting them up for diseases which will eventually kill them. People who don't let them out are stifling them and not allowing them to develop socially and are also inflicting abuse. You sure better not let them go skiing or swimming because, you know, death.

Don't act like an idiot and demonize everyone who has a different view of the risks and rewards over life decisions because they don't align with your own.

Oh, so I’m the idiot for vaccinating my kids so they don’t get measles, or any number of deadly diseases? Ok, just keep drinking that Flavor-aid.

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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Oh, so I’m the idiot for vaccinating my kids so they don’t get measles, or any number of deadly diseases? Ok, just keep drinking that Flavor-aid.

No your not an idiot for vaccinating your kids. You're simply acting like an idiot by asserting people with a different level of comfort on issues than you have come to are idiots. People die riding in cars, do we shame the drivers as anti-pedestrians. People die doing any number of things, some people look at certain activities as too dangerous and not worth the risk while others see them as worth the risk. Acting like a bully and calling people names when they have come to different decisions than you for any number of possible reasons is silly. Life is risk. We make decisions based on our experiences and interpretations of the facts and we accept different items as facts based on sources that are considered trustworthy. Parents make all kinds of decisions everyday based on weighing perceived risks against perceived rewards. Even pretty lousy parents make decisions for their children based on what they believe will bring the best outcome.

It would be much more productive to say, "Well I certainly feel that the evidence supports vaccination and that's what I believe everyone should choose and would choose if they could see the evidence that I have" As opposed to essentially saying, "people that think differently than me are stupid, I am superior and by virtue of my pompous self image declare them unworthy of being parents" do you really think that's productive - or does it just make you feel big and important?

Edited by SpiritDragon

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6 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

No your not an idiot for vaccinating your kids. You're simply acting like an idiot by asserting people with a different level of comfort on issues than you have come to are idiots. People die riding in cars, do we shame the drivers as anti-pedestrians. People die doing any number of things, some people look at certain activities as too dangerous and not worth the risk while others see them as worth the risk. Acting like a bully and calling people names when they have come to different decisions than you for any number of possible reasons is silly. Life is risk we make decisions based on our experiences and interpretations of the facts and we accept different items as facts based on sources that are considered trustworthy. Parents make all kinds of decisions everyday based on weighing perceived risks against perceived rewards. Even pretty lousy parents make decisions for their children based on what they believe will bring the best outcome.

It would be much more productive to say, "Well I certainly feel that the evidence supports vaccination and that's what I believe everyone should choose and would choose if they could see the evidence that I have" As opposed to essentially saying, "people that think differently than me are stupid, I am superior and by virtue of my pompous self image declare them unworthy of being parents" do you really think that's productive - or does it just make you feel big and important?

You have some issues to work out I think.

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11 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

You have some issues to work out I think.

No I can see where @SpiritDragon is coming from.  It isn't your message, it's the tone of the way it came across.  

Parents who don't vaccinate their kids honestly believe they're making decisions in the best interests of the child they love.  That isn't child abuse, any more than it's abuse to let your kid eat sugary cereal for breakfast or ride in an airplane... both are activities that are seen by some as being incredibly dangerous or unhealthy.  Not child abuse, even if some disagree.  

They're not idiots, just misinformed.  For whatever, reason, such people trust the source that told them vaccines cause autism or whatever.  The problem that needs solving isn't abusive parents, it's education.

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2 hours ago, unixknight said:

No I can see where @SpiritDragon is coming from.  It isn't your message, it's the tone of the way it came across.  

Parents who don't vaccinate their kids honestly believe they're making decisions in the best interests of the child they love.  That isn't child abuse, any more than it's abuse to let your kid eat sugary cereal for breakfast or ride in an airplane... both are activities that are seen by some as being incredibly dangerous or unhealthy.  Not child abuse, even if some disagree.  

They're not idiots, just misinformed.  For whatever, reason, such people trust the source that told them vaccines cause autism or whatever.  The problem that needs solving isn't abusive parents, it's education.

If my child eats sugar or rides in an airplane he is not going to cause some other kids to get diabetes or crash into a mountain. It is a week analogy to compare the two. Perhaps I stated it too bluntly for thin skinned individuals, but if you don’t vaccinate you are not just endangering your child with death, but you are endangering everyone else in society.  If your kid gets measles then the disease could mutate into something that could kill everyone.

Edited by Emmanuel Goldstein

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19 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

If my child eats sugar or rides in an airplane he is not going to cause some other kids to get diabetes or crash into a mountain. It is a week analogy to compare the two. Perhaps I came stated it too bluntly for thin skinned individuals, but if you don’t vaccinate you are not just endangering your child with death, but you are endangering everyone else in society.  If your kid gets measles then the disease could mutate into something that could kill everyone.

A person doesn't have to be thin skinned to find it inappropriate to use words like "idiot" to describe people who decide differently from you on a particular issue.

And it's not a weak analogy to make the point I was making, which is different from the one you're making now.  Earlier, you called it child abuse to not vaccinate, I pointed out other examples of parental decisions that other may also question as child abuse.  Calling it child abuse is hyperbole and overstating the case.  As I said, parents who make that choice honestly believe that they're acting in their child's best interest.  That is not child abuse.  Period.  I wish more parents thought that much about their child's well being.  Sure, they're making the wrong decision, but I'd take a set of parents who don't vaccinate over parents who neglect their kids or teach them immorality any day.

As for the argument that it endangers the community... Well, they just don't see it that way.  And if we're being honest, the threat isn't that grave.  The Measles outbreak in that Jewish community in New York is only a danger to the other kids within that community who aren't vaccinated.  It's not a significant threat to the public at large.

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30 minutes ago, unixknight said:

A person doesn't have to be thin skinned to find it inappropriate to use words like "idiot" to describe people who decide differently from you on a particular issue.

And it's not a weak analogy to make the point I was making, which is different from the one you're making now.  Earlier, you called it child abuse to not vaccinate, I pointed out other examples of parental decisions that other may also question as child abuse.  Calling it child abuse is hyperbole and overstating the case.  As I said, parents who make that choice honestly believe that they're acting in their child's best interest.  That is not child abuse.  Period.  I wish more parents thought that much about their child's well being.  Sure, they're making the wrong decision, but I'd take a set of parents who don't vaccinate over parents who neglect their kids or teach them immorality any day.

As for the argument that it endangers the community... Well, they just don't see it that way.  And if we're being honest, the threat isn't that grave.  The Measles outbreak in that Jewish community in New York is only a danger to the other kids within that community who aren't vaccinated.  It's not a significant threat to the public at large.

Yes I agree, ignorant would have been more appropriate than idiot.

It is my opinion that it is child abuse. We will just have to disagree.

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On 1/17/2019 at 3:14 PM, Godless said:

What if your neighbor's kid gave your kid measles? Would you still respect his right to put the public in danger? At what point does public well-being outweigh personal liberty? I agree that it's a very fine line to walk. But at some point public safety has to trump personal liberty. 

I have a child that is mostly unvaccinated.  She had a horrible reaction to vaccines. The mmr was one of the worst.  We ended up at the er in the middle of the night. My daughter qas struggling to breathe from a very 106 high fever. We were told no more vaccines.  I struggled with the idea of vaccinating my next children. It makea me sick at the idea of it happening to them.  

 

I will never judge a parent for doing what they think it best for their children.  My fully vaccinated child got whopping cough. I don't blame whomever gave it to him. I would feel the same way with any thing we vaccinate for. 

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10 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Perhaps I stated it too bluntly for thin skinned individuals, but if you don’t vaccinate you are not just endangering your child with death, but you are endangering everyone else in society.  If your kid gets measles then the disease could mutate into something that could kill everyone.

There is a very good chance my daughter will die if vaccinated.  I have been told that it's a risk that I should take for the better good of other people. She will never get another vaccine again. 

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20 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

There is a very good chance my daughter will die if vaccinated.  I have been told that it's a risk that I should take for the better good of other people. She will never get another vaccine again. 

 

25 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

I have a child that is mostly unvaccinated.  She had a horrible reaction to vaccines. The mmr was one of the worst.  We ended up at the er in the middle of the night. My daughter qas struggling to breathe from a very 106 high fever. We were told no more vaccines.  I struggled with the idea of vaccinating my next children. It makea me sick at the idea of it happening to them.  

 

I will never judge a parent for doing what they think it best for their children.  My fully vaccinated child got whopping cough. I don't blame whomever gave it to him. I would feel the same way with any thing we vaccinate for. 

That is so scary. It saddens me how unsympathetic people can be in making blanket statements about people making decisions for their families when there are multiple reasons like these. I mean even in your grandchildren's case - is it worth taking the risk when you know something about your daughter's combination of DNA and biochemistry reacted poorly to that vaccine to risk putting her kids in ER as well. If there were better tests to find out who might have poor reactions in order to increase safety it would go a long way to improve confidence in those who have had poor reactions. When I got my ninth grade tetanus booster (likely a TDap as they would have recently introduced the acellular pertussis component) I had a serious reaction that left my left arm paralyzed for a week. It was terrifying not knowing if my arm would ever work again.

It would also be helpful if they had options to get single antigen vaccines that seem to be less reactive, instead the expectation is that everyone gets trivalent to hexavalent or worse concoctions because it's more convenient. It's also sad that more effort isn't put into finding effective cures and verifying documented cures (particularly notable is the work of Frederick Klenner with vitamin C) for these dread diseases since vaccinated or not some people still get them. Of course, if a convenient and safe cure were out there and well established among the public and medical staff then vaccination rates would likely plummet because the big bad killers would lose their fangs. 

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2 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I'm sorry to here that. Is it an immune system condition?

Reaction to vaccines. She ended up in the children's hospital er. High fever, trouble breathing, a lump bigger than my fist at injection site, all bright red, swollen and sensitive to touch.  Multiple doctors have said no more shots for her. They have questioned if its safe for her siblings to get any vaccines.

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One of my daughters is allergic to eggs.  That means that she never gets the flu vaccine.  The same goes for her daughter.  They gave her the flu vaccine (my grand daughter) one Christmas around 10 years ago.  The Daughter swelled up like a balloon (they were in South Georgia at the time, I wasn't there so can't say what she looked like, they only told me after the fact.  Her husband was deployed at the time, but luckily my oldest son was there spending time with them over Christmas and so they had the priesthood there to give them blessings) and they took her to the emergency room.

She gets other vaccines but as a result was told to never get the flu vaccine ever again or any other vaccine that uses eggs in the processing of it.

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If there is a valid medical reason to not vaccinate then there is no choice but to refuse the vaccine. But there are many parents that do not vaccinate because of incorrect information from the anti-vax movement. We have vaccinated our kids and they have never gotten the diseases nor had a negative reaction, thankfully. 

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Guest MormonGator
56 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

If there is a valid medical reason to not vaccinate

I remember reading that true "Gluten Sensitivity" is in only .6-1% of the population, if not less. Oddly though, everyone and their mother seems to be "allergic" to Gluten. They do it for attention, to feel special, to feel different, etc. 

Yeah, um, the same thing with "vaccine allergies". Less than 1% of the population shouldn't be vaccinated for "medical reasons" But people will claim it for attention, to feel special, to feel different, etc.

Amazingly though-I've met many, many people who claim to be "allergic" to vaccines. Imagine that! 

Edited by MormonGator

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9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I remember reading that true "Gluten Sensitivity" is in only .6-1% of the population, if not less. Oddly though, everyone and their mother seems to be "allergic" to Gluten. They do it for attention, to feel special, to feel different, etc. 

Yeah, um, the same thing with "vaccine allergies". Less than 1% of the population shouldn't be vaccinated for "medical reasons" But people will claim it for attention, to feel special, to feel different, etc.

Amazingly though-I've met many, many people who claim to be "allergic" to vaccines. Imagine that! 

 

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