Thanks, anti-vax movement...

[anatess2]

42 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Ok that's what I was wondering about.

My (highly Libertarian) thinking is this:  Vaccinations are something that are basically a no-brainer, so the solution to the anti-vax movement is simply education.  People who are choosing not to vaccinate, based on junk science, are truly doing what they think is best for their kids, they just have the facts wrong.  They're not bad people, just unaware.  Granted, some fight tooth and nail to remain ignorant, but welcome to the human race, where worldviews are set in iron.

Fortunately, those tend to be isolated and herd immunity generally is sufficient to handle it.  It's when you see communities, like the one in the OP, being vulnerable due to clumps of people making the same bad call together.  That said, their community leaders are already working toward educating people and remedying the problem, so from where I'm sitting, Government power is not needed. 

I completely understand this sentiment.  And this is actually my natural position on everything.  That's why I mentioned how vaccination is my exception to the natural way of things.

I have zero doubt that if and when vaccines in the Philippines become nationally accessible, then a law mandating vaccinations would be put in the books to achieve herd immunity.  But I won't guarantee that it will remain in the books forever.

So... here's the equivalence in the Philippines:

In the Philippines back in 1973, voting was made compulsory.  You can, of course, vote for nobody - submitting a blank ballot - but you have to go and vote.  The idea was that, if you don't vote, then you affect the entire electoral process rendering each individual's vote irrelevant as it is not a reflection of the majority.  Also, making voting mandatory makes people have to pay attention to elections and makes political candidates have to work for the "uninformed voter". 

Before this time, even with government and non-profit organizations going door-to-door and school-to-school educating people about the importance of elections and responsibilities of citizenship (we only became a democratic nation since 1946), we had a hard time getting up to 50% even 27 years after gaining independence.

The irony to this is... 1973 was right after Marcos declared Martial Law and started his dictatoriship suspending Presidential elections.  Hah hah.

Anyway, when Marcos got exiled in 1986, the Constitution was revised to prevent another dictatorship and somehow, compulsory voting got dropped.  But, the habit was already instilled and we've had at least 80% elections participation since so there's no demand to make it mandatory again.

So, if I think of this regarding vaccinations... if the Philippines were to leave vaccinations to education, and using the voting history as a metric, we won't achieve herd immunity within 27 years...

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by anatess2

[SpiritDragon]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

SD, we're talking about vaccinations and Government Control.  Obesity as a cultural construct is outside the purview of Government Control - or SHOULD BE.  

 

That is the point - if it should be out of the government purview to control what goes into citizens bodies orally, shouldn't it moreso be untenable for them to have access to what enters bodies via injection?

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Unless you are going to posit that a Government should be able to... say... control the spread of hereditary genetic disorders by sterilizing genetic carriers or some such (just an example akin to that study on Obesity).

You mean sterilizing obese people with vaccines targeted to do so while they are unaware  (I kid, I haven't seen anything convincing that vaccines are used to selectively sterilize anyone, but the fear is out there... and hopefully really just out there)

 

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

That is the point - if it should be out of the government purview to control what goes into citizens bodies orally, shouldn't it moreso be untenable for them to have access to what enters bodies via injection?

YES YES!  I agree with this point like I mentioned above (and I quoted in that climate change thing).  EXCEPT for vaccinations.  I make an exception for that due to the circumstances and consequences of non-vaccination as is occurring in the Philippines.

 

10 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

You mean sterilizing obese people with vaccines targeted to do so while they are unaware  (I kid, I haven't seen anything convincing that vaccines are used to selectively sterilize anyone, but the fear is out there... and hopefully really just out there)

 

So, the autism scare just doesn't hold water.  So, this is why it's hard for me to believe the anti-vax movement people.

[unixknight]

50 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I completely understand this sentiment.  And this is actually my natural position on everything.  That's why I mentioned how vaccination is my exception to the natural way of things.

Why is it an exception for the U.S.?  With vaccines plentiful (and therefore inexpensive) we just don't have the same issues here as in the Philippines, so why would there need to be an exception to your normal approach? 

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Why is it an exception for the U.S.?  With vaccines plentiful (and therefore inexpensive) we just don't have the same issues here as in the Philippines, so why would there need to be an exception to your normal approach? 

Herd immunity and the collective purpose of Eradication - making something Extinct.

Edited February 20, 2019 by anatess2

[SpiritDragon]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

YES YES!  I agree with this point like I mentioned above (and I quoted in that climate change thing).  EXCEPT for vaccinations.  I make an exception for that due to the circumstances and consequences of non-vaccination as is occurring in the Philippines.

 

So, the autism scare just doesn't hold water.  So, this is why it's hard for me to believe the anti-vax movement people.

The autism issue is a difficult one because it may very well be that vaccines have nothing to do with it, it may be that vaccines play a role, and it may be that they have everything to do with it. You have to understand that there are many more studies than simply the Wakefield study that have shown issues with vaccines and brain damage that is similar to autism. However, as mentioned previously there is also the issue of trust in what comes out in the literature. It is entirely possible that primary journals don't want to come within 100 miles of anything to do with this issue after the Wakefield fiasco, so studies are either relegated to less prestigious journals where we can smugly look on and say that it's not reputable, or they can be cancelled before being completed if the results aren't favourable.

Autism aside though there are concerns with vaccinations such as increased allergies, increased autoimmunity, increased asthma, a temporal association with SIDS, increased hospitalizations following vaccination and of course the very real concern of increased death as seen in the case of the guinnea bissau DPT studies referenced earlier.

The fact of the matter is that even if the science satisfied my questions 100% I would still favour others having a decision for themselves.

[unixknight]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Herd immunity.

I don't understand.  Why does herd immunity a reason for compulsory vaccines to be an exception to your normal approach?

5 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

The fact of the matter is that even if the science satisfied my questions 100% I would still favour others having a decision for themselves.

This is the core of where I'm at.  If you're talking about giving the  Government power, it needs to be a VERY necessary, compelling and the benefits need to be rock solid and clear. 

Forcing vaccinations in the U.S. strikes me as a feel good solution to a problem that barely exists in any significant scale.

Edited February 20, 2019 by unixknight

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I don't understand.  Why does herd immunity a reason for compulsory vaccines to be an exception to your normal approach?

The concept of herd immunity is that for the eradication of the virus to be possible, at least 80% of the population has to be hostile to the virus.  The only way you can achieve 80% agreement in a Democracy in a population size of a nationwide scale in a short amount of time to last for a long period of time is to... apply authority.

 

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

This is the core of where I'm at.  If you're talking about giving the  Government power, it needs to be a VERY necessary, compelling and the benefits need to be rock solid and clear. 

Correct.  That's my point.  Living in the Philippines, it is clear as day.

 

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Forcing vaccinations in the U.S. strikes me as a feel good solution to a problem that barely exists in any significant scale.

Because you have already achieved herd immunity.  So your problem is to prove that herd immunity has become unnecessary.

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

The concept of herd immunity is that for the eradication of the virus to be possible, at least 80% of the population has to be hostile to the virus.  The only way you can achieve 80% agreement in a Democracy in a population size of a nationwide scale in a short amount of time to last for a long period of time is to... apply authority.

 

Correct.  That's my point.  Living in the Philippines, it is clear as day.

 

Because you have already achieved herd immunity.  So your problem is to prove that herd immunity has become unnecessary.

So are you telling me you don't endorse compulsory vaccinations in the U.S.?

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, unixknight said:

So are you telling me you don't endorse compulsory vaccinations in the U.S.?

I didn't endorse it because it was already law in the US when I came in.  So the question applicable to me is, do I endorse making it non-compulsory?  At this point, no I don't.  Not yet.  For 2 reasons, 1.)  There's no compelling evidence for me to believe that herd immunity has become unnecessary.  or 2.) There's no compelling evidence for me to believe that removing the law will retain herd immunity.

In the Philippines, I endorse making vaccinations compulsory when we do get to that point of nationwide availability and affordability of vaccines.  When we solve the problem of high death rates, then we can have the luxury of solving other problems like human rights and environment protection and any other socio-political issues I can wave my banner on, etc.

Edited February 20, 2019 by anatess2

[SpiritDragon]

On 2/19/2019 at 5:50 PM, zil said:

What, like insisting people provide you and your companions desserts at 7pm?  Say in a church meeting?

This led me to the hard sell with the Word of Wisdom on my mission in Utah, with conversations going something like this:

Missionary: (after explaining specific points of section 89) So how do feel about the Lord's law of health? Will you take the next step on your journey of following the Saviour by abiding by the Word of wisdom?

Investigator: You mean give up my coffee and tea and replace with brownies and cupcakes like the pear-shaped Mormons?

Missionary: (yikes) Well you don't have to take on the cupcakes and brownies, but giving up tea and coffee is required to get baptized.

Investigator: But I thought you said it was a law of health, so why should I give up tea and coffee if others don't need to give up junk food?

Missionary: (carries on as directed by the spirit and so on)

This was unfortunately all too real and all too common talking to non-members in Utah.

However, I don't want this to be a slight against Utah, but a church culture thing that is common enough it gets noticed. Even where I live now, people suggest we need invite Mormons to functions because they always bring the best baked goods. They lure men to meetings with pizza and women with fudge covered goodness. Doesn't every ward have a "candy man"?... Not what I'd prefer my religion to be known for.

[JohnsonJones]

21 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Just wanted to make sure that people know something.

Real actual fact:  Russian Twitterbots have been helping legitimize the Anti-Vax movement and intentionally sowing discord for years now.   Every time I read that sentence, I want to chuckle or roll my eyes or give nervous laughter or something.  But it's true.

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2018.304567

Normal internet use for a mature person, requires a healthy dose of fact checking and source evaluation.  But on the topic of vaccinations, it's important to know that a hostile foreign government is actually out there intentionally spreading disinformation trying to sow division and discord in us.  

It's one reason why I'm glad to have SpiritDragon here - he's got a few brain cells to rub together, AND he's got good worthy links to share about stuff. 

What's next...everything that happens in the US that one doesn't agree about will be blamed on Russia or Russian Bots?

That's what it seems the media is trying to do recently.

Not sure whether we should laugh at them because of this, or just tell them that as they are telling us all this is due to Russian bots and such, that they must also be part of the Russian equation as the US media in the US are the majority of what everyone will read or see in the US.

[prisonchaplain]

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 5:07 PM, MormonGator said:

Amen bud. 

Wait! Did an LDS member just make a BEER reference to a tee-totaling Pentecostal preacher?

[prisonchaplain]

12 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

Missionary: (after explaining specific points of section 89) So how do feel about the Lord's law of health? Will you take the next step on your journey of following the Saviour by abiding by the Word of wisdom?

Investigator: You mean give up my coffee and tea and replace with brownies and cupcakes like the pear-shaped Mormons?

Outsider question: I always thought that the WoW was similar to the Jewish/Mosaic prohibition against shrimp. Many believe the law was instituted because shrimp is unhealthy, yet rabbis will insist that Jews do not eat shrimp because God said no. In other words, in the 1970s LDS felt vindicated because coffee supposedly caused pancreatic cancer. Now that it's a miracle health drink, full of fiber and antioxidants, the prohibition is carried out because the prophet gave revelation. At the end of the day, was it not always about the prophet giving revelation. If he's sustained, then the correct answer is obedience. Right?

[Guest MormonGator]

17 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Wait! Did an LDS member just make a BEER reference to a tee-totaling Pentecostal preacher?

So that's why you never accepted my invitation to any of my keg parties, huh? 

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Outsider question: I always thought that the WoW was similar to the Jewish/Mosaic prohibition against shrimp. Many believe the law was instituted because shrimp is unhealthy, yet rabbis will insist that Jews do not eat shrimp because God said no. In other words, in the 1970s LDS felt vindicated because coffee supposedly caused pancreatic cancer. Now that it's a miracle health drink, full of fiber and antioxidants, the prohibition is carried out because the prophet gave revelation. At the end of the day, was it not always about the prophet giving revelation. If he's sustained, then the correct answer is obedience. Right?

Right.

So... April 2019 conference is going to lift the ban on coffee and tea?  Should we hope?  

[unixknight]

17 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Outsider question: I always thought that the WoW was similar to the Jewish/Mosaic prohibition against shrimp. Many believe the law was instituted because shrimp is unhealthy, yet rabbis will insist that Jews do not eat shrimp because God said no. In other words, in the 1970s LDS felt vindicated because coffee supposedly caused pancreatic cancer. Now that it's a miracle health drink, full of fiber and antioxidants, the prohibition is carried out because the prophet gave revelation. At the end of the day, was it not always about the prophet giving revelation. If he's sustained, then the correct answer is obedience. Right?

In short,  correct.

That's why I'm always reluctant to point to science to find vindication for some doctrine or another.  When it comes to application of religion, science is a fickle thing.  Sometimes it seems to support your belief, sometimes it seems to refute it.  Sometimes it goes back and forth (like with the coffee thing.)  

Maybe there are health benefits to coffee, but what about the bigger picture?  What about the addictive properties of caffeine?  I used to work with a guy who had a 20oz cup of coffee form Starbucks before 9AM every day.  By 10AM he was back over there for a refill (!).  That man's prostate gland is going to explode before he turns 45.  I'd wonder if those minor benefits outweigh that.  (I know you aren't promoting coffee, I just felt like sharing that story  )

Honestly, I think the WoW is about more than just simple, physical health.  I've had plenty of coworkers who couldn't be productive until they'd had their morning coffee.  I'm not referring to physical addiction to caffeine here, but the psychological need to not even try to be alert before that first cup... Almost as if not having had that coffee was a license to be useless before 9AM.  Ever heard someone say "I NEED my coffee?"  Yeah.  That's how I knew it was time to put away the Pepsi, because I was regularly citing a "need" for it.

Sorry for my rambling reply!

[NeuroTypical]

27 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Outsider question: I always thought that the WoW was similar to the Jewish/Mosaic prohibition against shrimp. Many believe the law was instituted because shrimp is unhealthy, yet rabbis will insist that Jews do not eat shrimp because God said no. In other words, in the 1970s LDS felt vindicated because coffee supposedly caused pancreatic cancer. Now that it's a miracle health drink, full of fiber and antioxidants, the prohibition is carried out because the prophet gave revelation. 

That's been my understanding.  Not that the prophet gave revelation, but we've got it enshrined in scripture, with modern interpretation from our prophets.  

I'm grateful that interpretation covers tea from tea leaves, and not hot drinks from other kinds of leaves.  We do herbal teas on occasion for tummies and to stay warm and whatnot.

[prisonchaplain]

13 minutes ago, unixknight said:

(I know you aren't promoting coffee, . . .  Ever heard someone say "I NEED my coffee?" 

From a Seattle perspective, needing coffee is like needing oxygen. "Yeah...so?"  

[unixknight]

25 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So... April 2019 conference is going to lift the ban on coffee and tea?  Should we hope?  

If they do that I'd probably start having iced tea in my fridge regularly the way I once did, but I'd still avoid coffee.  (No offense to you Seattle folks )

[pwrfrk]

I have heard the anti-vaxx argument, and I have to say I disagree with it.  If you don't want a vaxx, fine.  If you do not want your kids to get vaxx'ed, fine.  But when a bug goes around and you spread it because you're not vaxx'ed, then AFAIC you should be held responsible.  In fact, along that same line a few guys got nailed years ago for spreading HIV (I think it was HIV).  They had sex, did not believe in using condoms, had HIV and never told the women.  End result, women get HIV.  The 2 guys (more?) ended up doing time in prison for that.

Ok, HIV has no vaxx for it, right now, that I know of.  But polio, measles, stuff like that, there are vaxx's and they can hurt of not kill some people under the wrong conditions.  And if you're spreading it, you're to blame.  They may have a vaxx scheduled, and maybe you got to them first.  Or maybe for whatever reason they cannot have a vaxx, maybe not now, maybe never (who knows), they still get it because you chose not to get the vaxx.  Don't argue "well, if they got it they could spread it, too!"  If so then it's on their head.  But we're not talking them.  We're talking....about you.

Truthfully, the chance a vaxx could cause an illness is there.  But the statistics do not support outlawing vaccines, even with the Hg content.  I still prefer Mercurochrome instead of iodine when bandaging up cuts and scrapes.  It has Hg in it.  But ultimately, the statistics are not there to support not getting your kids vaccinated.  And if you don't get your kids shot up with a vaxx and they get a bug and die because of the lack of vaxx, then AFAIC you murdered your kid.

But this is all my opinion.  I'll get vaxx'ed if it's needed.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Good thing for everybody to read:

Anti-vaxers' adult son gets measles; now, he has this message for the world

Quote

Joshua went to the emergency room, where a doctor said it looked a lot like the measles. Had he been vaccinated as a child?

Nerius texted the question to his mother. She sent back a thumbs-down emoji. His next stop was an isolation room at Northwestern Memorial Hospital. Nerius became so weak that at one point, he couldn't walk without assistance. He lost 25 pounds. It took months to fully recover.

"I felt horrible," he said. "It took a serious toll."

...

It's easy to forget how sick people get from measles or how it killed 400 to 500 people in the United States each year before the vaccine came into use in 1963, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

...

Offit, a professor of pediatrics at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, thinks Shine might change her mind if she'd seen the children he cared for in 1991 during a measles outbreak in Philadelphia.

"They were absolutely miserable," he remembers. "And occasionally, they were dead."

Nine children died in that outbreak, according to the Philadelphia Department of Public Health.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Good thing for everybody to read:

Anti-vaxers' adult son gets measles; now, he has this message for the world

 

I'm optimistic that the anti-vaxxers are on their last legs. Facebook is shutting down anti vaccine pages (Thank God!) and now you are reading about kids who are getting vaccine shots against their parents wishes. 

Rage against the machine kids. Rage against the machine. 

[NeuroTypical]

Youtube is also removing or demonitizing anti-vax channels.

Netflix is also removing harmful anti-vax propaganda disguised as legit documentaries.

 

I sure as heck hope you're right, MG. 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I sure as heck hope you're right, MG. 

Amen my friend. Amen.