prisonchaplain

Are LGBT Activists Religious Bigots?

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VPOTUS and family is receiving heavy criticism, because Mrs. Pence now works for a Christian school--one that prohibits LGBT-identifying candidates from acceptance as students or staff. The Pence's point out that most religious schools have these prohibitions, and it's really terrible to see such vicious anti-Christian education sentiment expressed. It's a free country, but sad, nonetheless.  Thoughts?

Edited by prisonchaplain

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Whereas bigotry is generally defined as: 

intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself

...then is it fair to say that God is a bigot, in the eternal sense of things?

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Guest Scott

To answer your question in the title, some of them are, but most aren't.  It depends on how it is being done.

Saying that all of them are religious bigots is like saying that all Christians are religious bigots, something that we have all heard a lot.  

 

Edited by Scott

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17 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

VPOTUS and family is receiving heavy criticism, because Mrs. Pence now works for a Christian school--one that prohibits LGBT-identifying candidates from acceptance as students or staff. The Pence's point out that most religious schools have these prohibitions, and it's really terrible to see such vicious anti-Christian education sentiment expressed. It's a free country, but sad, nonetheless.  Thoughts?

I think many in the LGBT  movement are religious bigots, though I'm not sure this is an example.  Mind you, I think the school is perfectly well within its rights to have whatever restrictions it wants, but looking at it from their point of view, they see it as discrimination against them.  So their reaction isn't really bigoted per se.

That said, you don't have to go far to see that that this is only making the news because it's about Mrs. Pence, and if she worked at a private Islamic school nobody on the left would have said beans.

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4 minutes ago, Scott said:

To answer your question in the title, some of them are, but most aren't.  It depends on how it is being done.

Saying that all of them are religious bigots is like saying that all Christians are religious bigots, something that we have all heard a lot.  

 

In context, the question would apply to those activists calling the Pence's terrible people for being involved with the Christian school in question.

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6 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I think many in the LGBT  movement are religious bigots, though I'm not sure this is an example.  Mind you, I think the school is perfectly well within its rights to have whatever restrictions it wants, but looking at it from their point of view, they see it as discrimination against them.  So their reaction isn't really bigoted per se.

That said, you don't have to go far to see that that this is only making the news because it's about Mrs. Pence, and if she worked at a private Islamic school nobody on the left would have said beans.

Why would LGBT parents enroll their kids, or apply to teach at a school that believes they are sinful? It's as silly as saying AA meetings are bigoted against those who enjoy consuming mass quantities of alcohol. Yeah. So?

BTW...the day will come when those Islamic and Hebrew schools will be fair game, as well. After all, if Asian students are being told they are not really people of color, then it won't be long before only the truly favored groups (ironically those with political and media power) get to be victims.

Edited by prisonchaplain

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Meh.  Not interesting in calling people names.  "Bigot" is about as useful as "homophobe".

I grew up with a kid, who is now one of my favorite Facebook arguing buddies.  He married a woman who now goes by the name George, apparently there is some surgery involved too.  He certainly has no love for the restored Church, and made a public post about resigning within hours of hearing about how we won't baptize his kids.  He posts occasionally about the (perceived) harm he sees coming from my church, but I wouldn't call him a religious bigot.  

He adopted a noble internet practice.  When arguing a point that will tend to ruffle feathers, he will then post a cute fuzzy animal baby.  Sometimes when he's really working himself up for a good rant, he'll start with a bunch of them.  The effort to preserve the relationship while arguing strenuously?  That's admirable.

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Guest Scott
10 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

In context, the question would apply to those activists calling the Pence's terrible people for being involved with the Christian school in question.

Simple criticism isn't bigotry unless it is rooted in hate, prejudice, and intolerance.   

If the people are calling Pence a terrible person for being involved in the Christian school, then I guess it is (mild) bigotry.  I call it mild because it isn't threatening the person (unless they are-in that case it wouldn't be).   

This is actually a hard question to answer because by definition telling someone they are sinning, in danger of going to hell by doing something gay, or morally inferior could by the same definition also be bigotry.  It would certainly be by definition bigotry if you told the person that they were evil or a bad person because he or she were gay.

In any case, I wouldn't worry about the definition that much.  The Pence's should just ignore the criticism if that's all it is.    Anyone in a high position of power is going to have a lot of criticism.       

Edited by Scott

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As FYI, the Pence's are ignoring the criticisms. It's concerning though, in that the implication is that people in office should have no affiliation with faith-based organizations. There's also the story of a Trump nominee who's been heavily criticized for his association with the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic lay organization, mostly given to charitable works). Of course, the real target is pro-life advocacy--but they are going about it using "guilt by association." This is the kind of stuff that drives religious folk who may be politically moderate into the hands of candidates like our current Commander in Chief.

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2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm not so sure. One is only narrow-minded if found wrong.

My point is that in the way the world seems to narrowly define bigotry, then God is -- eternally speaking. He is a "bigot" against Satan, his minions, and those who follow -- meaning he will not tolerate them come judgment day.

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2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

As FYI, the Pence's are ignoring the criticisms. It's concerning though, in that the implication is that people in office should have no affiliation with faith-based organizations. There's also the story of a Trump nominee who's been heavily criticized for his association with the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic lay organization, mostly given to charitable works). Of course, the real target is pro-life advocacy--but they are going about it using "guilt by association." This is the kind of stuff that drives religious folk who may be politically moderate into the hands of candidates like our current Commander in Chief.

I dunno if it's much of a comfort or not, but taking issue with the religious affiliation of public officials isn't really new.  JFK took a beating for being Catholic, when his political opponents questioned whether his primary loyalty was to Washington or to Rome.

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2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Why would LGBT parents enroll their kids, or apply to teach at a school that believes they are sinful? It's as silly as saying AA meetings are bigoted against those who enjoy consuming mass quantities of alcohol. Yeah. So?...

People who consume mass quantities of alcohol are called alcoholics, which are the very people that AA serves. Alcoholics who can stop drinking still identify as alcoholics.

M.

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“Bigot”, like “racist”, has degenerated into an epithet that is virtually meaningless; and in their heart of hearts most Americans know it.  As conservatives, we shouldn’t dignify those terms—or the people who use them against us—by seeking to turn them back on our accusers.  The best response is to a cool, unruffled “I don’t even know what that means”, and then stare them down like the intellectual dwarves that they are.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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Guest Scott
4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

It's concerning though, in that the implication is that people in office should have no affiliation with faith-based organizations. 

Criticizing someone for being in an organization isn't the same as trying to prevent someone for being in an organisation.

The Pence's aren't alone.  

A lot of Christians (and non-Christians of course) said that they had a problem voting for a Mormon when Romney was running.

Some pastors told people not to vote for Romney because he is a Mormon:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/07/pastor-to-gop-dont-vote-for-romney-because-hes-mormon/comment-page-2/

Is this any different?  Is it also concerning.

Also look at the uproar when someone Muslim or LGBT was elected to office.   

I don't know what kinds of things that were said about the Pence's, but is it as bad as those who said things about Muslims or gays in or running for office?  

Our recently elected governor of Colorado is openly gay and he got all kinds of hate criticism.  

Is this any different?

Bigotry may be wrong, but Christians aren't the only ones being targeted.    They aren't the ones being targeted the worse, despite what some people say.  

I have never been physically harmed for being a Mormon, but I can say that any criticism I have had for being a Mormon came from other people who are Christian. 

The biggest Christian forum I know of is CARM and the members almost never have anything nice to say about Mormons and all they dish out is criticism:

https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cults-groups/general-cult-groups-topics/mormonism

PS, this has no reflection on you Prisonchaplain.  You seem nothing like the people criticizing Mormons just for being Mormons and although I don't know you, you definitely seem like a great and level headed person.

I'm just saying that it is more than Pence or Christians who are targeted.     

It seems that Christians and us Mormons like to think that we are still persecuted, but when it comes down to it, we really aren't nearly treated as bad as some groups.

I don't know, but when is the last time someone was killed in this country just for being LDS?    I don't know the answer, but I do know that several people have been killed for being gay in recent years.

Criticism is different than being killed or beaten.  

I guess the main thing we have to worry about when it comes to bigotry or (warranted) criticism is that we try not to do it to others and not worry so much about those doing it to us.  Of course violence towards us would be a whole different topic.  

Edited by Scott

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2 hours ago, Maureen said:

People who consume mass quantities of alcohol are called alcoholics, which are the very people that AA serves. Alcoholics who can stop drinking still identify as alcoholics.

M.

People who consume lots of alcohol are heavy drinkers. Those who believe their drinking is problematic are alcoholic. So, perhaps a more direct question for me to ask is why would someone who greatly enjoys drinking, and does not find it to create trouble, join an AA meeting? Further, should someone like that do so, and then during the meeting say something like, "Hey, I'm not a quitter. I was born liking alcohol. Why should anyone try to change who we are?" would the AA leaders not politely ask that person to leave?

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2 hours ago, unixknight said:

I dunno if it's much of a comfort or not, but taking issue with the religious affiliation of public officials isn't really new.  JFK took a beating for being Catholic, when his political opponents questioned whether his primary loyalty was to Washington or to Rome.

It may not be new, but it's supposed to be very bad form these days. The whole JFK incident was taught to me as a way people used to be. We're better now. So I thought.

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

“Bigot”, like “racist”, has degenerated into an epithet that is virtually meaningless; and in their heart of hearts most Americans know it.  As conservatives, we shouldn’t dignify those terms—or the people who use them against us—by seeking to turn them back on our accusers.  The best response is to a cool, unruffled “I don’t even know what that means”, and then stare them down like the intellectual dwarves that they are.

I do want to live in a world where this tact works!

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

Criticizing someone for being in an organization isn't the same as trying to prevent someone for being in an organisation.

The Pence's aren't alone.  

A lot of Christians (and non-Christians of course) said that they had a problem voting for a Mormon when Romney was running.

Some pastors told people not to vote for Romney because he is a Mormon:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/07/pastor-to-gop-dont-vote-for-romney-because-hes-mormon/comment-page-2/

Is this any different?  Is it also concerning.

 

Again, I found the opposition to Romney to be very bad form. I bought and promoted the short book by David French urging Evangelicals to vote for Romney--and to be glad they did so.  https://www.amazon.com/Evangelicals-Should-Support-Romney-about-ebook/dp/B006WRFMPI/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?keywords=evangelicals+vote+for+romney&qid=1547790092&sr=8-1-fkmr0

Edited by prisonchaplain

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The question of whether private schools should have the right to choose not to employ LGQBT staff was a hot topic of debate in Australia, and in the national parliament for the last three months of 2018. The topic arose as the result of a bit of comfort the government threw to the Christian right when they promised the Australian people a national plebiscite to allow gay marriage. The people voted yes for gay marriage and, true to its promise, the government held an inquiry into the subject of religious freedom. One of the recommendations of the inquiry was that schools should be allowed to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation when it comes to enrolments and employment. The debate to amend our anti-discimination hasn't been decided yet, but at the moment its looking like schools will not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of gender orientation when it comes to enrolments, but they might be allowed to keep their existing right to be able to discriminate on the basis of gender orientation when it comes to hiring teachers. The debate will resume when Parliament next sits in February. The debate last year was quite intense and prolonged. 

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@askandanswer Are religious schools subsidized by government funds in Australia? I know they were in Hong Kong circa 1985, but that they are not in the U.S. IMHO, if government subsidizes a program or institution then the religious sponsors are to expect a certain measure of political/policy interference. If they are completely private, there should be little. Each country is different though...so I ask.

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That is exactly what the debate is about. Yes, religious schools are heavily subsidised by the federal government, but not by the state government. The balance between private school funding and public school funding has been a very passionate debate for decades. Whenever the federal government wants to introduce a new national education policy on anything, the only way they can do so is by offering to significantly increase the amount of funding they provide. About 6 years agp the Liberal federal govement introduced funding specifically for school chaplains. The Labour government have promised that if they win the next election, which they almost certainly will, they will replace the chaplains with counsellors.  

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16 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Are LGBT Activists Religious Bigots?

Yes.

Did you really expect a different answer?

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17 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Whereas bigotry is generally defined as: 

intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself

...then is it fair to say that God is a bigot, in the eternal sense of things?

No, that is not fair at all. My kids want to eat cookies for dinner, but I want them to eat their vegetables. I am not tolerant to what they want to do during dinnertime every night...so am I a bigot? Love is not always acceptance. God knows what is best for us, and his views are what is right - there is no argument on the matter. One may choose to believe differently, and they certainly can, but we should not be forced to accept their choices as "right", and be called intolerant if we do not follow them. In truth they do not just want tolerance, but want everyone to accept and then adopt their view. People who throw around the word bigot left and right nowadays know they are wrong, but create arguments to try and justify feeling better about themselves. Rules are set, clean is clean, and filth is filth.  Sooner or later all will see that God's way is the only way.

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10 minutes ago, scottyg said:

My kids want to eat cookies for dinner, but I want them to eat their vegetables. I am not tolerant to what they want to do during dinnertime every night...so am I a bigot? 

According to the dictionary definitions I reviewed, yes. You are bigoted against cookies and ice cream!

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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