Does the Transgender Fish Kobudai Challenge What We Know About Gender?

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

You misspelled "ain't".

Dagnabbit! 

I'm not worthy...

[Tyme]

10 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Created in His image with eternal gender.

Obviously not.

[Grunt]

Just now, Tyme said:

Obviously not.

How so?

[clbent04]

I've always thought that all intelligence is eternal, regardless of if resurrection comes into play.  And if all intelligence is eternal, then having other living creatures eternally designated as one specific gender seems possible.  As far as which species or living creatures would have gender as part of their eternal identity could be much more complicated.  Or maybe it's simple. Maybe all living things are designated with one specific eternal gender even if various male/female characteristics are exhibited within this mortal existence. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by clbent04

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I've always thought that all intelligence is eternal, regardless of if resurrection comes into play.  And if all intelligence is eternal, then having other living creatures eternally designated as one specific gender seems possibly.  As far as which species or living creatures would have gender as part of their eternal identity could be much more complicated.  Or maybe it's simple. Maybe all living things are designated with one specific eternal gender even if various male/female characteristics are exhibited within this mortal existence. 

Yes.  all intelligence is eternal.  Now tell me, what's your definition of intelligence?  So, if you look at the things that go on in a bee hive, you'll be amazed at the synchronicity in that 24/7 hive activity... would you conclude that bees have intelligence?  Do ants have intelligence?  How about cockroaches?  A fish have a memory span between 3 seconds and 5 months - do they have intelligence?   And if they do... what do their progression look like?  Do they go to the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial kingdoms?  Do bees who drop their pollen end up in the telestial kingdom and bees who perfectly execute their duties go to the celestial kingdom?  Or do they just all go to outer darkness?

I love pretzels.

Edited January 18, 2019 by anatess2

[Fether]

2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I've always thought that all intelligence is eternal, regardless of if resurrection comes into play.  And if all intelligence is eternal, then having other living creatures eternally designated as one specific gender seems possibly.  As far as which species or living creatures would have gender as part of their eternal identity could be much more complicated.  Or maybe it's simple. Maybe all living things are designated with one specific eternal gender even if various male/female characteristics are exhibited within this mortal existence. 

I didn’t read much of what was already discussed... but here are my thoughts.

1) The fish’s sex organs will naturally and literally change. A human’s will not.

2) it is a matter of survival for the fish. It is not for humans

3) A fish doesn’t care what gender it is, nor  any other animal/insect/etc.. humans do

[Fether]

2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Easy, breezy, lemon squeezy. Little high-strung there, chieftess

Chieftess @anatess2 is in a constant state of high-strungness.

But it ain’t her fault! There are to many new age Starwars lovers (like me), uncultured movie goers (also me), thoughtless liberals, jack-Mormons, and teachers of false doctrine.

How can anyone relax in such a stressful environment?

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So I guess it's not obvious that we shouldn't be sealing turkeys one to another in the temples. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[person0]

This is very simple.  The fish actually alters its own gender through a natural biological process, and when complete, it has truly become the other gender; when a human seeks to alter its gender, it can only be done by external and unnatural procedures, and even when complete, it is only a surface level alteration; biologically the human remains the same gender.  Hence, there is nothing about the fish that could realistically apply to human gender; if anything, it is further evidence that the alteration of ones gender by mechanical means, is against nature.

[Guest Scott]

The quality of discussions on this forum is going downhill fast.

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Does the transgender fish Kobudai challenge what we know about gender? 

Rare exceptions don't disprove the rule.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[clbent04]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Yes.  all intelligence is eternal.  Now tell me, what's your definition of intelligence?  So, if you look at the things that go on in a bee hive, you'll be amazed at the synchronicity in that 24/7 hive activity... would you conclude that bees have intelligence?  Do ants have intelligence?  How about cockroaches?  A fish have a memory span between 3 seconds and 5 months - do they have intelligence?   And if they do... what do their progression look like?  Do they go to the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial kingdoms?  Do bees who drop their pollen end up in the telestial kingdom and bees who perfectly execute their duties go to the celestial kingdom?  Or do they just all go to outer darkness?

Animals, fish, and all living things having intelligence/eternal characteristics does not mean they will be judged. 

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I love pretzels.

Would you like some cheese with that?

[Vort]

5 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Does the transgender fish Kobudai challenge what we know about gender?  The Church's position is, "Our gender was established before we were born into mortality and is an essential characteristic of our eternal identity."

Fish are not sons and daughters of God, nor creatures created to inherit eternal life. Suggesting that a fish changing its sex implies that humans might, as well, is like saying that since slime mold is made of individual organisms that can form a collective without even cell wall boundaries between individual nuclei, that implies that humans can also merge together as an indistinguishable, amorphous blob of gelatinous protoplasm.

(By the way, slime mold is pretty darn cool, biologically speaking. But the point is that humans aren't like slime mold, even though we're both eukaryotes.)

[unixknight]

6 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Does the transgender fish Kobudai challenge what we know about gender?  The Church's position is, "Our gender was established before we were born into mortality and is an essential characteristic of our eternal identity."  Does the same belief apply to all living things?

No, I don't really think it challenges anything.  The animal kingdom has plenty of examples of life that doesn't coincide with human biology.  Male seahorses carry their young.  Octopodes keep their brains (and genitals, in the case of males) in their tentacles.  Some frogs can change sex in response to imbalances in the population.  Some birds feed their young by regurgitating.  What's natural and normal for one species on this planet isn't necessarily natural for another.  

So as to the question of whether that quote applies to all living things, my guess would be that it does not, in the case of animals for whom switching sex is natural.  The sex of a kobudai isn't an essential characteristic of its identity, apparently.   

[clbent04]

28 minutes ago, Vort said:

Fish are not sons and daughters of God, nor creatures created to inherit eternal life. Suggesting that a fish changing its sex implies that humans might, as well, is like saying that since slime mold is made of individual organisms that can form a collective without even cell wall boundaries between individual nuclei, that implies that humans can also merge together as an indistinguishable, amorphous blob of gelatinous protoplasm.

(By the way, slime mold is pretty darn cool, biologically speaking. But the point is that humans aren't like slime mold, even though we're both eukaryotes.)

I wasn't trying to justify human sex changes. I'm just curious about how gender might be an eternal characteristic for other life forms.

[NeuroTypical]

By the way, anyone wishing to look to the natural kingdom for cues on what should be acceptable for humans:

Roosters are, for the most part, bullies and rapists.  The notion of consent is pretty much absent in the chicken world, and any hen will tell you (or anyone else within earshot during the experience), the event often isn't really any fun for her.

I mean yes, a rooster will instinctively get in between his women and anything that threatens them.  But he basically demands amorous access whenever he pleases, without giving a second thought about whether it might injure or kill the poor missy.

Edited January 18, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Animals, fish, and all living things having intelligence/eternal characteristics does not mean they will be judged. 

So they have fish intelligence and will forever be nothing but fish?  Do they get resurrected fish bodies?

 

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Would you like some cheese with that?

Depends... does the cheese have intelligence?

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Chieftess @anatess2 is in a constant state of high-strungness.

But it ain’t her fault! There are to many new age Starwars lovers (like me), uncultured movie goers (also me), thoughtless liberals, jack-Mormons, and teachers of false doctrine.

How can anyone relax in such a stressful environment?

I know, right?  But don’t forget the anti-vaxxers... 😃

[askandanswer]

9 hours ago, anatess2 said:

If cockroaches are eternal somebody better assure me they go straight to outer darkness.

Done. I've just finished making the necessary arrangements. As of now, the spirits of all cockroaches will go directly to outer darkness, to be followed by their bodies as soon as they are resurrected. Just for you, @anatess2 I had alternative plans for cockroaches, but since you asked........

Edited January 19, 2019 by askandanswer

[clbent04]

12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Done. I've just finished making the necessary arrangements. As of now, the spirits of all cockroaches will go directly to outer darkness, to be followed by their bodies as soon as they are resurrected. Just for you, @anatess2 I had alternative plans for cockroaches, but since you asked........

askandanswerALMIGHTY

Edited January 19, 2019 by clbent04

[JohnsonJones]

Well, if wondering about life and living things, how about bad bacteria or the flu virus...what happens to things like that for eternity?

I think at times that not all that is here will be in the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial perhaps...or if they are, they will be in their own special and specific sphere of it.

That said, I think all living things speak of heaven and the order of it.  Sometimes it is in obvious ways and at other times in ways we may not understand as of yet.

Sometimes we may be looking at it the wrong way.

Who knows what the Kobudai represent or how they fit.

There is a similarity though with them and some humans.  To say they can change genders is true, but it is NOT how it is portrayed by some in this thread.  Doing some research on it, it appears that they are actually hermaphrodites.  AS such, they are born with the organ tissues of both sexes.  This enables them to change and develop these organs quickly in which is utilized whether it is the male or female.

It also seems to indicate that in order to have young, it is still necessary to have male and female fish.  They need both in order to propagate the species.  One cannot do it by themselves.  As they are born with both tissues which can be developed into the necessary organs when needed, they are actually hermaphrodites.  Yet, I have not found that they can actually reproduce by themselves or on their own.  They still need to be on gender or the other.  They do not destroy their ability to reproduce in becoming male or female.  

Among humans we sometimes also have Hermaphrodites.  They also cannot reproduce on their own.  At times things occur which make them sterile and can never have children...unlike the fish.  Other individuals, unlike the fish try to change their gender by UNNATURAL means, which also makes them sterile.  No matter how much one wants to be something different then they are, if they try to change their gender by drugs and surgery it normally ends up with them being sterile.  One cannot be BOTH genders at the same time in reproductionary purposes, though it is possible for one to have the tissues or even the organs (in the case of hermaphrodites or I believe they call them Intersex these days) of both.

Nature in the case of the fish still has it so that there needs to be a male and female to reproduce.  The same applies to us eternally.  Though we do not change our genders as we are not hermaphrodites, we DO still need to have Male and Females to reproduce.  It is, for us, an eternal principle. 

Now, it could be that the fish, as it seems only a minority of species of fish (there are several dozen, but this is still a very small percentage compared to all the fish in the world) could be a lesson pertaining to those who are intersex or are born with both sex organs.  Perhaps, when we wonder what gender they are, maybe they will have a choice or maybe made a choice or some other aspect.  Gender is eternal as we agree, but it can get kind of murky when talking about someone who was born as both.  What Gender are they?  Is there a choice?  Will there be a choice?

In this light, the Kobudai may or may not have a choice.  It seems that the normal progression is actually from Female to Male.  What we DO know, and which can apply to any who are born intersex, is that they are still creations of God.  They have a purpose and a reason for being on this Earth.

The same applies to those children who are intersex in this life.  They have a purpose and a reason for being here.  They are children of a Loving Father in Heaven and he cares deeply for them.

In this way, I think at least one lesson of the Kobudai is that it does not matter what we are born like, whether male, female, or sometimes something slightly different (such as a fish with tissues of both sex organs, or a human born with both types of organs from both genders)...he is a Creator who cares deeply for what he is over.  For his children, he loves them no matter what form or way they are.  He loves them regardless because, just like any loving father, they are his children and he wants the best for them.

Edited January 19, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[Vort]

13 hours ago, clbent04 said:

askandanswerALMIGHTY

I watched that movie a month or two ago. Stupid.

[clbent04]

21 minutes ago, Vort said:

I watched that movie a month or two ago. Stupid.

Lol. Yes it was. Sad thing too. I love Jim Carrey

[Guest Scott]

On 1/18/2019 at 3:42 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Roosters are, for the most part, bullies and rapists.  

Perhaps not too surprising considering that some scientists believe that chickens are the closest living relative to the T-Rex and there is scientific evidence to this theory.

[Fifthziff]

Watching "A Dog's Way Home" movie recently, it is interesting how one human trait is to try to give other animals and species human characteristics that are not physiologically possible.  At one point of the movie, I almost burst out laughing as the dog, narrating the story wonders if the mountain lion will remember her.  In other words, the super-dog with human abilities was now trying to give them to another animal.  .... Anyways, animals are not capable of having the same characteristics that relate to our eternal identity that humans have.