My Thoughts on Organizing Intelligences


clbent04
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What does it really mean to organize intelligences?  Here are some of my thoughts.  Most of this is highly speculative, and not representative of any official position of the Church. 

Abraham 3:22 "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;" (emphasis added)

An innumerable amount of intelligences exist across incomprehensibly vast spaces and can be divided into two categories - 1.) intelligences that have been organized by a Supreme Being and, 2.) intelligences that remain to be organized.  Likewise, as a Supreme Being, part of Heavenly Father’s work and glory is to organize intelligences.  Under the authority and direction of Heavenly Father, all intelligences in this realm are organized. 

The greatness of this realm is unfathomable to us.  Yet it is not just this realm that exists.  Many realms exist each of which are under the dominion of a Supreme Being.  As we are under Heavenly Father’s dominion, we will always give Him the glory by praising and honoring Him, as He then passes the glory to His God before Him and so forth.  This is the hierarchy of the work and the glory.

For those of us who ascend to the Celestial Kingdom and beyond to Godhood, we too will be charged with organizing intelligences yet to be organized.  These unorganized intelligences exist in other spaces where the work and the glory have yet to be perpetuated.  We will further the work by organizing these intelligences and establishing our own realms.

Why did God use the verb “organize” instead of “gather” when describing the process of organizing intelligences?  It’s because intelligences exist at many different levels.  We as intelligences need to be organized into the appropriate mortal state so that we might live to the full measure of our creation.  The highest level of intelligence is organized into the form of humans which are created in the image of God.   But yet many other levels of intelligences exist and are placed into their appropriate mortal state be it animal or fish.

Life forms such as plants, fungi, protists, archaea, and bacteria may or may not be considered intelligences.   My current working theory is that they are not and therefore weren’t organized.  They are simply created and animated by the power of God.  They are not eternal.  I believe the line that divides eternal and temporary life forms looks something like this:

Humans, Animals, Fish / Plants, Fungi, Protists, Archaea, Bacteria

What is the eternal plan for animals and fish?  Do they progress?  What does their progression look like?  They are incapable of sin, they are innocent, and they are exempt from judgement.  We can try fitting other life forms into our box of understanding of how progression is supposed to work for us, but I think that’s the wrong approach.  What if animals and fish are already at the pinnacle of their own perfection?  What if they have and always will be the innocent intelligences they are, having no need to become any greater than they are in their own capacity however limited that may be?  And while we can say that we have been given dominion over these life forms, and they incapable of progressing as we do, the point isn’t that all life forms must progress.  Maybe our relationship with animals and fish on Earth is a glimpse of how our eternal relationships will be.  Maybe they will continue to aid us in other capacities in the life hereafter.

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It has been suggested that all the major religions contain some form of truth. Reincarnation is a major teaching of one particular religion, although I can't remember which one at the moment. Perhaps animals go through multiple cycles of life and death and descend or ascend on the intelligence scale in proportion to their obedience until they are born as humans. 

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I think it is God's desire to give all forms of life the maximum opportunities to progress as far as they can and becoming like God is as far as we can progress, so perhaps in some way, animals also have this opportunity, although on a different timeframe.

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8 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

It has been suggested that all the major religions contain some form of truth. Reincarnation is a major teaching of one particular religion, although I can't remember which one at the moment. Perhaps animals go through multiple cycles of life and death and descend or ascend on the intelligence scale in proportion to their obedience until they are born as humans. 

That is a good theory. While we don't believe in reincarnation for humans, whose to say plants and animals can't subject to that process?

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:
2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

It has been suggested that all the major religions contain some form of truth. Reincarnation is a major teaching of one particular religion, although I can't remember which one at the moment. Perhaps animals go through multiple cycles of life and death and descend or ascend on the intelligence scale in proportion to their obedience until they are born as humans. 

That is a good theory. While we don't believe in reincarnation for humans, whose to say plants and animals can't subject to that process?

A great theory!!!

for a fiction book

D+C 88:25 “the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--“

In place of the phrase “the earth” you can put anything else. As long as a creature full fills its measure, it will be found in the celestial kingdom. The highest degree of the celestial kingdom is held only for those that are children of God and sealed for eternity. So that is the plan. Animals/plants/insects/etc will all be found in the celestial kingdom, but will not be “exalted”

Why is this so?

I don’t think this is “unfair” or any of us being here was just a “luck of the draw”. Ever known someone that attends church but refuses callings because they don’t want the responsibility? I imagine it was the same way in the creation. Some spirits don’t want the responsibility of exaltation and decided before mortality that they would rather not have to deal with the stress of agency.

Similarly, those that will be exalted are those that magnify their callings, follow the counsel of the prophets strictly, and participate in all the ordinances of the gospel. Those who do not will not be exalted.

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3 hours ago, Fether said:

A great theory!!!

for a fiction book

D+C 88:25 “the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--“

In place of the phrase “the earth” you can put anything else. As long as a creature full fills its measure, it will be found in the celestial kingdom. The highest degree of the celestial kingdom is held only for those that are children of God and sealed for eternity. So that is the plan. Animals/plants/insects/etc will all be found in the celestial kingdom, but will not be “exalted”

Why is this so?

I don’t think this is “unfair” or any of us being here was just a “luck of the draw”. Ever known someone that attends church but refuses callings because they don’t want the responsibility? I imagine it was the same way in the creation. Some spirits don’t want the responsibility of exaltation and decided before mortality that they would rather not have to deal with the stress of agency.

Similarly, those that will be exalted are those that magnify their callings, follow the counsel of the prophets strictly, and participate in all the ordinances of the gospel. Those who do not will not be exalted.

Accepting reincarnation for any life form is a bit of a stretch for me from what I think I understand from the gospel.  But who knows for sure?  Sometimes we project our understanding of a given revelation too broadly where incorrect assumptions are made.  We understand to an extent the laws of the Celestial Kingdom as they pertain to our salvation, but much is left unsaid as to how all life and intelligence relates to each other.

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3 hours ago, Fether said:

Some spirits don’t want the responsibility of exaltation and decided before mortality that they would rather not have to deal with the stress of agency.

My understanding is that those who rejected God's plan and did not want themselves or others to have agency were cast out. 

What are your thoughts on what these rejectin spirits were before they rejected agency? Were they the sprits of eventual humans or the spirits of eventual animals?

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17 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Accepting reincarnation for any life form is a bit of a stretch for me from what I think I understand from the gospel. 

It’s absurd to think that an understanding of the gospel means that we then have an understanding of all of God’s intentions, plans, decisions and actions in relation to the development, implementation and operation of the Plan of Salvation. If we take the narrow definition of the gospel, as taught by Christ himself, and recorded in 3rd Nephi 27, then the gospel is simply faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If we take a more expanded, modern definition of the Gospel, as added to by latter day prophets, we can include Priesthood, temple ordinances, enduring to the end and eternal progression. I think the gospel contains all and only the information that we need in order to be saved, but this is far, far short of all the information contained in the development, implementation and operation of the Plan of Salvation. There is almost an infinite amount of room for ideas and information about thousands of topics that have not been included in the scriptures. 

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3 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

It’s absurd to think that an understanding of the gospel means that we then have an understanding of all of God’s intentions, plans, decisions and actions in relation to the development, implementation and operation of the Plan of Salvation. If we take the narrow definition of the gospel, as taught by Christ himself, and recorded in 3rd Nephi 27, then the gospel is simply faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If we take a more expanded, modern definition of the Gospel, as added to by latter day prophets, we can include Priesthood, temple ordinances, enduring to the end and eternal progression. I think the gospel contains all and only the information that we need in order to be saved, but this is far, far short of all the information contained in the development, implementation and operation of the Plan of Salvation. There is almost an infinite amount of room for ideas and information about thousands of topics that have not been included in the scriptures. 

100% agree.

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4 hours ago, Fether said:

In place of the phrase “the earth” you can put anything else.

Here is an example of the dangers of relying on this sort of approach:

1.  Thou shalt have no other cats before me.

2.   Thou shalt not make unto thee any casseroles

3.   Thou shalt not take deep breaths in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh deep breaths in vain.

4   Remember your wedding anniversary, to keep it holy.

5.   Honour thy house and thy car: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

6.   Thou shalt not laugh.

7.   Thou shalt not commit harm.

8.  Thou shalt not play golf.

9.  Thou shalt not bear gifts against thy neighbour.

10.  Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's barbecue, thou shalt not covet thy children, nor his tools, nor shed, nor his swimming pool, nor his pet dog, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

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On 1/19/2019 at 1:56 PM, askandanswer said:

It has been suggested that all the major religions contain some form of truth. Reincarnation is a major teaching of one particular religion, although I can't remember which one at the moment. Perhaps animals go through multiple cycles of life and death and descend or ascend on the intelligence scale in proportion to their obedience until they are born as humans. 

@askandanswer This really is a good theory.  I've been thinking about it more lately.  Do you have a general idea on how the reincarnation progression system works, i.e., how the various life forms on Earth would progress from least greatest to finally being born as human? Let me know if you agree with my outline or if you have another in mind:

Descending Order Showing a General Idea of the Reincarnation Progression of Life Forms You Need to Pass Through in order to Finally be Born as a Human

  • ***Human***
  • Gorilla/Monkey
  • Lion/Tiger/Wolf
  • Bear/Hippo/Rhinoceros
  • Horse/Zebra/Giraffe/Moose
  • Deer/Donkey
  • Predatory Birds (Owl/Eagle/Hawk)
  • Squirrel/Rabbit
  • Birds of Prey (Sparrow/Quail)
  • Seal/Penguin/Walrus
  • Whale/Dolphin/Shark
  • Snake/Lizard/Alligator
  • Fish/Crab
  • Jellyfish/Plankton 
  • Plants
  • Fungi, Protists, Archaea, Bacteria
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I haven't given too much thought to the progression of life forms a spirit might need to pass through to finally be born as a human, but I have given some thought to the principles of how such progression could be organised. One possible approach might be to rank the progression by intelligence, which seems to be what you have done, in which case I would rank whales and dolphins much higher, and not group them with sharks. Another possible approach might be to rank animals by their proximity to man, in which case dogs would probably be at the top of the list. If you want to become a human, it might be helpful to spend your whole life in close proximity to humans. One of the most important things that we need to learn in this life is obedience to a higher power, and that's something that a lot of dogs, and few other animals, have lots of opportunities to learn.

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Im not buying into the whole spirit progression from animals to humans. God creates according to the spheres he has placed them within. Thus, for an animal such as a dog, its greatest joy is filling its measure of creation as being a friend to man. It will never know nor understand what its like to be human. It will also not understand its placement as if it missed out on something greater as it will only u derstand its own greatness by filling its own purpose. In its own sphere there will be perfection of joy in filling its creation. 

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im not buying into the whole spirit progression from animals to humans. God creates according to the spheres he has placed them within. Thus, for an animal such as a dog, its greatest joy is filling its measure of creation as being a friend to man. It will never know nor understand what its like to be human. It will also not understand its placement as if it missed out on something greater as it will only u derstand its own greatness by filling its own purpose. In its own sphere there will be perfection of joy in filling its creation. 

It's tricky cause it's hard to wrap my head around a dog eternally being a dog: Woof, woof, scratch, sniff, lick... forever!  Not that dogs will necessarily have itches to scratch in the life hereafter. 

However, it's equally challenging to buy into the reincarnation progression cycle.  Hence I like both perspectives since the answer probably lies somewhere in between... or beyond!

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4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I haven't given too much thought to the progression of life forms a spirit might need to pass through to finally be born as a human, but I have given some thought to the principles of how such progression could be organised. One possible approach might be to rank the progression by intelligence, which seems to be what you have done, in which case I would rank whales and dolphins much higher, and not group them with sharks. Another possible approach might be to rank animals by their proximity to man, in which case dogs would probably be at the top of the list. If you want to become a human, it might be helpful to spend your whole life in close proximity to humans. One of the most important things that we need to learn in this life is obedience to a higher power, and that's something that a lot of dogs, and few other animals, have lots of opportunities to learn.

Yes, whales and dolphins are proven to be incredibly intelligent.  If based off intelligence alone, I probably would reorder my list. 

I was using a couple different criteria on the go to come up with the list I made such as:  How much does the life form resemble a human being, how intelligent is the life form, and where does the life form principally reside (land or sea)? I gave preference to life forms that live their existence on land as opposed to marine life mainly based on the fact that land animals are proven to be more closely related to humans than marine life. 

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On 1/22/2019 at 9:16 AM, clbent04 said:

@askandanswer This really is a good theory.  I've been thinking about it more lately.  Do you have a general idea on how the reincarnation progression system works, i.e., how the various life forms on Earth would progress from least greatest to finally being born as human? Let me know if you agree with my outline or if you have another in mind:

Descending Order Showing a General Idea of the Reincarnation Progression of Life Forms You Need to Pass Through in order to Finally be Born as a Human

  • ***Human***
  • Gorilla/Monkey
  • Lion/Tiger/Wolf
  • Bear/Hippo/Rhinoceros
  • Horse/Zebra/Giraffe/Moose
  • Deer/Donkey
  • Predatory Birds (Owl/Eagle/Hawk)
  • Squirrel/Rabbit
  • Birds of Prey (Sparrow/Quail)
  • Seal/Penguin/Walrus
  • Whale/Dolphin/Shark
  • Snake/Lizard/Alligator
  • Fish/Crab
  • Jellyfish/Plankton 
  • Plants
  • Fungi, Protists, Archaea, Bacteria

I am not sure how the numbers will work out.One can only imagine what would happen were the 10 Quintilian insects supposedly to become lions/tigers/wolves. The size of the planet would have to be considerably larger than our own, and will there be enough fungi to have progressed to squirrels and rabbits or Horses and Zebras to provide food for the 10 Quintilian lions/tigers/bears.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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8 hours ago, wenglund said:

I am not sure how the numbers will work out.One can only imagine what would happen were the 10 Quintilian insects supposedly to become lions/tigers/wolves. The size of the planet would have to be considerably larger than our own, and will there be enough fungi to have progressed to squirrels and rabbits or Horses and Zebras to provide food for the 10 Quintilian lions/tigers/bears.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Oh yeah. Insects. Lol. That was a huge omission on my part.

But who says lesser intellegencies can’t be reborn on one of the other innumberable worlds under God’s dominion?

And does the promotion in life form suddenly jump from insect to mid-sized animal?

And how many insects would become promoted after one mortal life?

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As to my knowledge currently, and what I have been able to grasp through revelation and theory, my explanation is very simple. All creatures produce after their own kind. This is a temporal as well as spiritual law.

We are literally, our intelligences, the offspring of deity -- Heavenly Father and Mother.  The word organize is simply God recognizing we had reached a state where in order to become like him we needed to come to earth. He simply organized his sons and daughters, called them together, and then explained in more detail what was to come. Similarly, like on earth we organize meetings, we organize people into groups, and then specify who will be the leader of those group.

Animals produce after their own kind spiritually and temporally. Animals have a spirit, intelligences, thus they can be resurrected also. What we see as the animals and insects, are the offspring (just like we are the offspring of God, his heirs), of resurrected animals. In this thing, I agree with @Fether, animals and insects all reach their full measure of creation, and will inhabit a celestial kingdom where God dwells. They will continue to produce offspring after their own kind. We know animals are obedient to their master, more so than humans, because when an animal is moved upon by God -- they obey. Humans, sons and daughters, do not always obey when acted upon, or when enticed to act properly (e.g. Laman and Lemuel).

What I am more curious about is the creations we have never seen on this earth, but are true creatures -- Cherubims for example. They are some form of heavenly creature whose form, body, is unknown.

Here is something I ponder, and my ponderings lead me to believe (at this moment) as I do, "that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created." (Doctrine and Covenants 77: 2)

All living creatures will progress in the eternities according to their destined order, or sphere of their creation.

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2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Oh yeah. Insects. Lol. That was a huge omission on my part.

But who says lesser intellegencies can’t be reborn on one of the other innumberable worlds under God’s dominion?

And does the promotion in life form suddenly jump from insect to mid-sized animal?

And how many insects would become promoted after one mortal life?

I thought what I suggested would at least make you go, "hmmmm,, maybe reincarnation isn't feasible.."

If not, consider the exponentiality of it all. Given the unfathomable magnitude of the species at the bottom rung of the food chain, each cycle of reincarnation would have to expand to the power of Quintilians in order to provide food as they the lower rungs move up the food chain. 

And, keep in mind that most of the 10 Quintilian insects have an average life expectancy measured in months, if not days.

Talk about a population explosion. ;)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Some thoughts from an engineer that works in the field of industrial artificial intelligence.   I will begin by saying - or asking the question --> Does anyone have any idea what on earth is intelligence in the first place? 

One of the first ideas is not what intelligence is but rather what it does.  In a nutshell intelligence makes decisions.  If we look at making a decision as the basis of intelligence we begin to realize that there are only a few basic decisions and that they are actually quite simple.  What we think of as superior or higher intelligence is just a more complex ordering of the simple basic decision making.

Mostly we think intelligence as unique to living things - and for the most part we observe that living things are all made up of individual cells.  With more complex living things there are cells devoted entirely to making decisions we call these decision making cells a brain (most of us here on this forum have one of these collection of decision making cells.    The more of the cells dedicated to making decisions the greater we think the intelligence of a creature is.

This idea of cells working together to make a creature more intelligence kind of goes along with the op of this thread.  In short the more we organize bits of intelligence the more complex we can make the intelligence - that is sort of what the scripture is saying about G-d.  For those that understand this process of organizing intelligence to create more complex decisions possible they will begin to understand a possible motive for G-d to organize good and righteous intelligence capable of making more complex decisions.  In case it is not yet obvious - the reason would be to enhance the intelligent capabilities of himself or G-d.

I have previously posted about the latest artificial intelligent theory of the Hive Mind.  This concept follows exactly what I have been presenting.  In essence the more working together independent thinkers (cells) can accomplish decisions, the more intelligence there will be.  In short; the salvation of man is just the most "organized" intelligent evolution of intelligence that there is possible.

For those that can grasp the idea that intelligence begins with the simple and that by organizing the simple - more complex decisions are possible.  There is another chapter in the saga that involves Chaos theory and the organizing of simple independent things in complex systems and how complex systems evolve.   I personally find the advancements and discoveries in this regard quite interesting and enlightening.  Sort of a wonderful example of correlation between Science and Religion.

 

The Traveler

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9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Some thoughts from an engineer that works in the field of industrial artificial intelligence.   I will begin by saying - or asking the question --> Does anyone have any idea what on earth is intelligence in the first place? 

One of the first ideas is not what intelligence is but rather what it does.  In a nutshell intelligence makes decisions.  If we look at making a decision as the basis of intelligence we begin to realize that there are only a few basic decisions and that they are actually quite simple.  What we think of as superior or higher intelligence is just a more complex ordering of the simple basic decision making.

Mostly we think intelligence as unique to living things - and for the most part we observe that living things are all made up of individual cells.  With more complex living things there are cells devoted entirely to making decisions we call these decision making cells a brain (most of us here on this forum have one of these collection of decision making cells.    The more of the cells dedicated to making decisions the greater we think the intelligence of a creature is.

This idea of cells working together to make a creature more intelligence kind of goes along with the op of this thread.  In short the more we organize bits of intelligence the more complex we can make the intelligence - that is sort of what the scripture is saying about G-d.  For those that understand this process of organizing intelligence to create more complex decisions possible they will begin to understand a possible motive for G-d to organize good and righteous intelligence capable of making more complex decisions.  In case it is not yet obvious - the reason would be to enhance the intelligent capabilities of himself or G-d.

I have previously posted about the latest artificial intelligent theory of the Hive Mind.  This concept follows exactly what I have been presenting.  In essence the more working together independent thinkers (cells) can accomplish decisions, the more intelligence there will be.  In short; the salvation of man is just the most "organized" intelligent evolution of intelligence that there is possible.

For those that can grasp the idea that intelligence begins with the simple and that by organizing the simple - more complex decisions are possible.  There is another chapter in the saga that involves Chaos theory and the organizing of simple independent things in complex systems and how complex systems evolve.   I personally find the advancements and discoveries in this regard quite interesting and enlightening.  Sort of a wonderful example of correlation between Science and Religion.

 

The Traveler

Aye, just as long as we recognize that artificial intelligence and real intelligence are, in large parts, completely different things.

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5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

 

Animals produce after their own kind spiritually and temporally. Animals have a spirit, intelligences, thus they can be resurrected also. What we see as the animals and insects, are the offspring (just like we are the offspring of God, his heirs), of resurrected animals. In this thing, I agree with @Fether, animals and insects all reach their full measure of creation, and will inhabit a celestial kingdom where God dwells. They will continue to produce offspring after their own kind. We know animals are obedient to their master, more so than humans, because when an animal is moved upon by God -- they obey.

The scripture talk about the "Breath of life" both in regards to humans and beasts (animals - also plants).  This breath of life is a power unique to G-d or G-ds but is extended to mortal things for purposes for which the earth was made (and preserved from the flood of Noah).  It is related to the first commandment to multiple and replenish the earth.  In short it is my personal theory that without the intelligence and power of Celestial beings - there are no life forms capable of reproducing after their own kind. 

5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

What I am more curious about is the creations we have never seen on this earth, but are true creatures -- Cherubims for example. They are some form of heavenly creature whose form, body, is unknown.

As a side note - from the symbolism that surrounds Cherubims - I am inclined to believe that a cherub is another title or symbol of Christ.

 

The Traveler

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3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Aye, just as long as we recognize that artificial intelligence and real intelligence are, in large parts, completely different things.

Why?  If something is intelligent then it is intelligent.  Humans use the intelligence of bacteria to help them digest food (among many other things - there are more non human cells of living things inside you - part of you - than there are living cells with your unique DNA) - without such symbiotic sharing of intelligence - you will quickly die. 

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Why?  If something is intelligent then it is intelligent.  Humans use the intelligence of bacteria to help them digest food (among many other things - there are more non human cells of living things inside you - part of you - than there are living cells with your unique DNA) - without such symbiotic sharing of intelligence - you will quickly die. 

 

The Traveler

There is intelligence in living things. In computers there's no intelligence, it's just a machine.

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

The scripture talk about the "Breath of life" both in regards to humans and beasts (animals - also plants).  This breath of life is a power unique to G-d or G-ds but is extended to mortal things for purposes for which the earth was made (and preserved from the flood of Noah).  It is related to the first commandment to multiple and replenish the earth.  In short it is my personal theory that without the intelligence and power of Celestial beings - there are no life forms capable of reproducing after their own kind. 

This reminds of the following statement that if there is no God, then we are not. Without God we have no existence, but I am not sure the connection you are correlating with my response. I agree that without God we are not able to produce after our own kind. Without God we would not exist.

Quote

As a side note - from the symbolism that surrounds Cherubims - I am inclined to believe that a cherub is another title or symbol of Christ.

The Traveler

What evidence, scriptural or prophetic quotes would you use to validate your thought with Cherubims? Cherubim were placed in front of the tree of life so that Adam and Eve would not partake of its fruit. In this manner you feel that Christ was placed in front of this tree with a flaming sword that they could not partake?

The following words within our Bible Dictionary, "Figures representing heavenly creatures, the exact form being unknown. They are found in the Holy of Holies, on the Mercy Seat of the Ark (Ex. 25:18, 22; 1 Kgs. 6:23–28; Heb. 9:5), and in the visions of Ezekiel (Ezek. 10; 11:22). In the account of the Fall, cherubim are represented as keeping “the way of the tree of life” (Gen. 3:24)." (emphasis mine) We know the form of Christ isn't unknown.

I can agree pertaining to symbolism of Christ, as Moses and Joseph, are symbols of Christ (pointing back to him), but not sure how you are meaning title. I am thinking of title i.e. Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Savior, etc... How are you using "title" here?

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