My Thoughts on Organizing Intelligences

[Guest]

On 1/25/2019 at 8:31 AM, clbent04 said:

Oh yeah. Insects. Lol. That was a huge omission on my part.

But who says lesser intellegencies can’t be reborn on one of the other innumberable worlds under God’s dominion?

And does the promotion in life form suddenly jump from insect to mid-sized animal?

And how many insects would become promoted after one mortal life?

More likely, your original premise is wrong.

[mordorbund]

On 1/25/2019 at 9:28 PM, Anddenex said:

Cherubim were placed in front of the tree of life so that Adam and Eve would not partake of its fruit. In this manner you feel that Christ was placed in front of this tree with a flaming sword that they could not partake?

@Traveler can speak for himself, but I want to clarify a little (which may contribute to his point, or it may not). First, the Genesis (and Moses) account says Cherubim and a flaming sword "keep the way of the tree of life". Traveler ties this to Christ being the "way, the truth, and the life" but I'll let him go into more proof texts and evidences for Christ as Cherub. Alma is really keen on this story, and he gives the best explanation I can find on the role of these Jedi (I'm pretty sure a "flaming sword" is a light saber - Joseph Fielding Smith said so). 

" if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.... nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state." In other words, Adam and Eve are supposed to eat the fruit of the tree of life, but not now while they are still filthy. Note the scenarios Alma describes are for "if [the fruit] had been ... partaken of... at that time" and "if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life". So 2 things now need to happen 1) Adam and Eve must die as a consequence of their choice (see above), and 2) Adam and Eve need to repent during their probation, before they eat the fruit of the tree of life (see here and here).

To effect this repentance during the probationary state, God sends a second set of commandments (this can be viewed as the "way of the tree of life") through angels and personal visits (I suppose laying down the law is one way to keep or guard the way) (also, how's that for "heavenly creatures"). And the endgame of this path is for Adam and Eve to learn repentance so they can "have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of [their] sins; and these shall enter into my rest."

To me it sounds like Adam and Eve are supposed to eat the fruit from the tree of life - only, not yet. Not at that time, and not immediately. They are sent angels and the words of God Himself to establish a path to worthiness. From what I can gather these Cherubs also guard the path (and the tree), ensuring no one eats unworthily. If the candidate meets the requirements then he eats, if he does not the guardians prevent him. Brigham Young describes heavenly guardians in such a role. "Angels stand as sentinels" he says, and you must "give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, [to] gain your eternal exaltation." To the imagery of divine guards, he adds in his own folksy way the path they watch over and keep. With your feet on this path you can "walk back to the presence of the Father".

You can probably see that there's some Christology here, but again Traveler can approach in his style. My point is more to illustrate that, while you are correct to say that the purpose of cherubim and a flaming sword is to prevent Adam and Eve from partaking of the fruit of the tree of life, this was only a temporary ban and intended to be lifted once their probation was complete.

[clbent04]

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

More likely, your original premise is wrong.

The OP or the reincarnation tangent?

[Traveler]

On 1/25/2019 at 3:09 PM, Rob Osborn said:

There is intelligence in living things. In computers there's no intelligence, it's just a machine.

I strongly disagree - there is intelligence (ordered change) in everything that exist.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I strongly disagree - there is intelligence (ordered change) in everything that exist.

 

The Traveler

I was speaking in the context of this definition-

"Intelligence has been defined in many ways, including: the capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, and problem solving. More generally, it can be described as the ability to perceive or infer information, and to retain it as knowledge to be applied towards adaptive behaviors within an environment or context." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence

There is not this kind of intelligence in computers, they don't think, understand, reason, have emotion, etc.

 

[Traveler]

On 1/25/2019 at 7:28 PM, Anddenex said:

This reminds of the following statement that if there is no God, then we are not. Without God we have no existence, but I am not sure the connection you are correlating with my response. I agree that without God we are not able to produce after our own kind. Without God we would not exist.

What evidence, scriptural or prophetic quotes would you use to validate your thought with Cherubims? Cherubim were placed in front of the tree of life so that Adam and Eve would not partake of its fruit. In this manner you feel that Christ was placed in front of this tree with a flaming sword that they could not partake?

The following words within our Bible Dictionary, "Figures representing heavenly creatures, the exact form being unknown. They are found in the Holy of Holies, on the Mercy Seat of the Ark (Ex. 25:18, 22; 1 Kgs. 6:23–28; Heb. 9:5), and in the visions of Ezekiel (Ezek. 10; 11:22). In the account of the Fall, cherubim are represented as keeping “the way of the tree of life” (Gen. 3:24)." (emphasis mine) We know the form of Christ isn't unknown.

I can agree pertaining to symbolism of Christ, as Moses and Joseph, are symbols of Christ (pointing back to him), but not sure how you are meaning title. I am thinking of title i.e. Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Savior, etc... How are you using "title" here?

The Cherubims "Keep" the way or path - they do not prevent the partaking of the fruit.  Jesus said that he is the way - which has the same symbolic meaning as the keeper.  In scripture the Cherubims are given a sword (with fire) to assist them.  Where else in scripture will man encounter something with a sword and fire - associated with their salvation - Hint see Revelation 19.  

A couple of other things.  The word Cherub comes from the Greek.  The Hebrew term has no modern translation so the ancient Greek term is used in modern scripture.  In ancient Greek a Cherub was a classification of a g-d not an angle.  Cupid was a Cherub and was the Greek g-d that caused romantic love.  On the mercy seat (judgment seat) there are two Cherubims one on the right hand of  G-d and one on the left.  There is a variant reading of the text that translates as "The two brothers shall face each other".   In Acts, Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of G-d.  It is tradition that at the judgment that Satan and those that follow him will be at the left hand of G-d.  And the final point - the Term Chirst is Greek and means Messiah or "Anointed".  I do no have access to my library but there is a scripture that indicates that Satan was "anointed".  

In short I see no indication in scripture that a Cherub has any other meaning beyond what we symbolically understand as Messiah or Christ.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I was speaking in the context of this definition-

"Intelligence has been defined in many ways, including: the capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, and problem solving. More generally, it can be described as the ability to perceive or infer information, and to retain it as knowledge to be applied towards adaptive behaviors within an environment or context." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence

There is not this kind of intelligence in computers, they don't think, understand, reason, have emotion, etc.

 

The only thing I am convinced of is; that you do not think, understand, reason or have emotion, etc. of what computers are capable of.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The only thing I am convinced of is; that you do not think, understand, reason or have emotion, etc. of what computers are capable of.

 

The Traveler

Computers are machines. They are a series of switches turning on and off according to how they are programmed. 

[Traveler]

48 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Computers are machines. They are a series of switches turning on and off according to how they are programmed. 

You made an interesting observation in another thread - as long as things are on the same path and have forever to good - they all end up at the same place.  It is not just about what computers are capable of right now - but what they can become.  Also your body as per all living things is likewise a machine capable of nothing more than what it was programed.  

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You made an interesting observation in another thread - as long as things are on the same path and have forever to good - they all end up at the same place.  It is not just about what computers are capable of right now - but what they can become.  Also your body as per all living things is likewise a machine capable of nothing more than what it was programed.  

 

The Traveler

Apples and oranges. We may, and probably will, make the greatest most advanced computers able to mimick the actions of humans. But, as always will be the case, they will never do what we are capable of doing. They will never truly think or reason or have emotions. They will never understand or be self aware or care. They will always be just a machine.

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Apples and oranges. We may, and probably will, make the greatest most advanced computers able to mimick the actions of humans. But, as always will be the case, they will never do what we are capable of doing. They will never truly think or reason or have emotions. They will never understand or be self aware or care. They will always be just a machine.

So you say but without any proof.  How do you know that G-d is incapable of programing the intelligence in a machine.  The scriptures say that with G-d "All things are possible".  Do you not believe scripture?  😉

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

So you say but without any proof.  How do you know that G-d is incapable of programing the intelligence in a machine.  The scriptures say that with G-d "All things are possible".  Do you not believe scripture?  😉

 

The Traveler

Well, so far, there's absolutely no proof that adding more sophistication to computers have led to them becoming truly intelligent. Just adding more switching, faster processing power, and more programming hasn't led to them becoming intelligent. All it truly shows is that true intelligence and the processes taking place in a computer are completely different things.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

The Cherubims "Keep" the way or path - they do not prevent the partaking of the fruit.  Jesus said that he is the way - which has the same symbolic meaning as the keeper.  In scripture the Cherubims are given a sword (with fire) to assist them.  Where else in scripture will man encounter something with a sword and fire - associated with their salvation - Hint see Revelation 19.  

A couple of other things.  The word Cherub comes from the Greek.  The Hebrew term has no modern translation so the ancient Greek term is used in modern scripture.  In ancient Greek a Cherub was a classification of a g-d not an angle.  Cupid was a Cherub and was the Greek g-d that caused romantic love.  On the mercy seat (judgment seat) there are two Cherubims one on the right hand of  G-d and one on the left.  There is a variant reading of the text that translates as "The two brothers shall face each other".   In Acts, Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of G-d.  It is tradition that at the judgment that Satan and those that follow him will be at the left hand of G-d.  And the final point - the Term Chirst is Greek and means Messiah or "Anointed".  I do no have access to my library but there is a scripture that indicates that Satan was "anointed".  

In short I see no indication in scripture that a Cherub has any other meaning beyond what we symbolically understand as Messiah or Christ.

 

The Traveler

My apologies, apparently with you and @mordorbund I didn't specify what I was asking clearly; although, I am appreciative of the symbolism offered. Let me see if I can ask this more clearly pertaining to "title" for Christ.

I understand that a Cherub is symbolic of Christ, what I am not understanding is how you feel Cherubs are Christ/Messiah. Example, Moses and Joseph, can be archetypes of Christ, or symbolic of Christ and his ministry, but they are not a title nor are they Christ/Messiah.

Here is what is told of Cherubims from our Bible Dictionary, "Figures representing heavenly creatures, the exact form being unknown." We are provided two aspects of Cherubs:

1) They are heavenly creatures

2) The form of Cherubs are unknown

In light of the above, we know the form of Christ, if the Cherubs were a title for and are not just symbolic then we "know" the form of the Cherubs. So the Bible Dictionary would be incorrect as to the form of these Heavenly creatures. The second is that Cherubs are referred to in the plural, as more than one. We only have "one" Messiah, not multiple.

I hope that clarifies what I am trying to understand.

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, so far, there's absolutely no proof that adding more sophistication to computers have led to them becoming truly intelligent. Just adding more switching, faster processing power, and more programming hasn't led to them becoming intelligent. All it truly shows is that true intelligence and the processes taking place in a computer are completely different things.

you statement of absolutely no proof is itself proof of nothing.  The absence of proof is not proof of absence - else if you do not have proof in a compassionate G-d then there is no compassionate G-d.  

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

you statement of absolutely no proof is itself proof of nothing.  The absence of proof is not proof of absence - else if you do not have proof in a compassionate G-d then there is no compassionate G-d.  

 

The Traveler

Nonsense. If it were true that true intelligence can be made from computer circuit boards we would see it. We dont even see the very slightest hint that there is intelligence in circuit boards. C'mon, you really think that if we just throw enough electric switches together that it turns into intelligence?

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Nonsense. If it were true that true intelligence can be made from computer circuit boards we would see it. We dont even see the very slightest hint that there is intelligence in circuit boards. C'mon, you really think that if we just throw enough electric switches together that it turns into intelligence?

You do realize that your brain is not so different; that the neurons perform the same type of electric switching functions?  Plus there is a difference between software and hardware.  Without the intelligence of network routing (hardware and software) - we would not be communicating.  Also you previously mentioned emotions - I do not believe emotions are any more intelligent that your computer circuit board.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

You do realize that your brain is not so different; that the neurons perform the same type of electric switching functions?  Plus there is a difference between software and hardware.  Without the intelligence of network routing (hardware and software) - we would not be communicating.  Also you previously mentioned emotions - I do not believe emotions are any more intelligent that your computer circuit board.

 

The Traveler

So, under your reasoning, because our brain is so similar to a computer they must be intelligent. So then, why do I have intelligence budding out like crazy and the computer has zilch? Even if we paired up all the supercomputers in the world they still have zero intelligence. So, perhaps our brains and computers aren't really alike at all.

And we haven't even factored in what makes our brains intelligent- the spirit. I personally believe that real intelligence is in the spirit and the brain acts more like the sensory machine part. If this is true, we have no way to even view what intelligence even looks like. 

Just because we can make a circuit board of electric switches that we can program to follow input and switch accordingly doesn't make it intelligent. In more simplistic terms, a steam engine isn't intelligent even though we can get it to run on it's own.

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, under your reasoning, because our brain is so similar to a computer they must be intelligent. So then, why do I have intelligence budding out like crazy and the computer has zilch? Even if we paired up all the supercomputers in the world they still have zero intelligence. So, perhaps our brains and computers aren't really alike at all.

And we haven't even factored in what makes our brains intelligent- the spirit. I personally believe that real intelligence is in the spirit and the brain acts more like the sensory machine part. If this is true, we have no way to even view what intelligence even looks like. 

Just because we can make a circuit board of electric switches that we can program to follow input and switch accordingly doesn't make it intelligent. In more simplistic terms, a steam engine isn't intelligent even though we can get it to run on it's own.

I believe you are missing the whole point - so that you refuse to see the forest because of the (what you see as insignificant) trees.  Intelligence begins in a very simple rudimentary level.   G-d is able to recognize intelligence in that simplest context.  Because he can recognize intelligence he is able to "organize" it.  This ability to organize intelligence is a basic ability of G-d that gives rise to creation which is the first element of the plan of salvation.  Intelligence is the connection of all things  both physical and spiritual.  Being able to recognize and organize intelligence is the very foundation of all things devine.

It appears to me that you think of intelligence only after it is organized and refuse to consider that there is intelligence in all things - else there is no existence - physical or spiritual.  The fact that something exist is proof of its intelligence.  The more that something is organized the more it is intelligent.  Thus a circuit board of electric switches is more intelligent than its raw individual unorganized parts.  The more something is organized the better and more completely that something cooperates with that with which it is organized.  Your brain is more organized and thus is more intelligent than a electronic circuit board.   In the end a man and a woman organized together through divine covenant (marriage) - meaning that they cooperate in all things - the more intelligent they become together.  So much so that such organized cooperation is more important (g-d like and divine) than it is for either one to be "right" on their own.  The more an intelligence become one (meaning to cooperate - including sacrifice, love, compassion and care for the union or organization) the greater the intelligence is and is capable.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 29, 2019 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe you are missing the whole point - so that you refuse to see the forest because of the (what you see as insignificant) trees.  Intelligence begins in a very simple rudimentary level.   G-d is able to recognize intelligence in that simplest context.  Because he can recognize intelligence he is able to "organize" it.  This ability to organize intelligence is a basic ability of G-d that gives rise to creation which is the first element of the plan of salvation.  Intelligence is the connection of all things  both physical and spiritual.  Being able to recognize and organize intelligence is the very foundation of all things devine.

It appears to me that you think of intelligence only after it is organized and refuse to consider that there is intelligence in all things - else there is no existence - physical or spiritual.  The fact that something exist is proof of its intelligence.  The more that something is organized the more it is intelligent.  Thus a circuit board of electric switches is more intelligent that its raw individual unorganized parts.  The more something is organized the better and more completely that something cooperates with that with which it is organized.  In the end a man and a woman organized together through divine covenant (marriage) - meaning that they cooperate - the more intelligent they become together.  So much so that such organized cooperation is more important (g-d like and divine) than it is for either one to be "right" on their own.  The more an intelligence become one (meaning to cooperate - including sacrifice, love, compassion and care for the union) the greater the intelligence is and is capable.

 

The Traveler

We may be talking about different things. I am speaking of intelligence in the capacity of being self aware, able to reason and have and experience emotions and feelings, in the ability to use these parameters in making decisions and coming up with new and novel information. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Traveler]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We may be talking about different things. I am speaking of intelligence in the capacity of being self aware, able to readon and have and experience emotions and feelings, in the ability to use these parameters in making decisions and coming up with new and novel information.

You are correct - I am not connecting to what you are thinking.  But it looks to me that your line of thinking is the very logic that is the basis of abortion. Because a fetus during the first trimester is not self aware, able to reason, have and experience emotions and feelings, in the ability to use these parameter in making decisions and coming up with new and novel information - it is not really human and is no different than a circuit board that can be discarded at the wishes of the woman stuck with that unintelligent thing growing within her.  I disagree - intelligence is in all things and intelligence deals with intelligence at whatever level that intelligence exists - even at the circuit board level. 

 

The Traveler 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

You are correct - I am not connecting to what you are thinking.  But it looks to me that your line of thinking is the very logic that is the basis of abortion. Because a fetus during the first trimester is not self aware, able to reason, have and experience emotions and feelings, in the ability to use these parameter in making decisions and coming up with new and novel information - it is not really human and is no different than a circuit board that can be discarded at the wishes of the woman stuck with that unintelligent thing growing within her.  I disagree - intelligence is in all things and intelligence deals with intelligence at whatever level that intelligence exists - even at the circuit board level. 

 

The Traveler 

I disagree with your assumptions you've made about me. The type of intelligence in living things (including fetuses and living cells) is not the same thing as in a computer circuit board.

[Traveler]

47 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I disagree with your assumptions you've made about me. The type of intelligence in living things (including fetuses and living cells) is not the same thing as in a computer circuit board.

I was not referring to you as a person but rather the logic your are employing that something that:

Quote

is not self aware, able to reason, have and experience emotions and feelings, in the ability to use these parameter in making decisions and coming up with new and novel information

In the Roe vs Wade case that justified abortion made exactly that argument - that "things" that do not make the criteria of being "intelligent" self aware ect is not  the same but something different.  I am saying I disagree with the argument both in your insistence of different intelligence and Roe vs Wade insistence that something not self aware is a different type of whatever.   

Just because intelligence is not as organized as another intelligence does not mean that it is a completely different kind of intelligence.  I submit that the intelligence by which G-d communicates with all intelligence (organizes) is through the "order" of his priesthood and that all things in existence have intelligence and that by organizing intelligence - we (in the image of G-d) have dominion over created things.  And to insist that something is not intelligence is the essence of denying that it exists.  I stated previously that the essence of intelligence is basic but in its raw or natural state is unorganized.  That you as an individual are comprised of many cells - all of which contribute to your personal intelligence and ability to exist and is a gift from G-d.  In addition, you have been given - that there are intelligent cells within you that do not have your DNA and are not you but are organized with you such that their intelligence is added to yours - and that without such organization you would cease to exist as a living entity.  Also that there is intelligence that exist in all things that is not so different from your own intelligence that it cannot be organized such as to benefit and assist your own abilities to exist in this universe.  I submit that even subatomic particles consist of intelligence ordered such to function and exist in harmony that our universe can and does exist.  To say that there are things that are not connected by intelligence to G-d to be ordered by him is to deny creation and G-d's power to organize all things.

 

The Traveler

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I was not referring to you as a person but rather the logic your are employing that something that:

In the Roe vs Wade case that justified abortion made exactly that argument - that "things" that do not make the criteria of being "intelligent" self aware ect is not  the same but something different.  I am saying I disagree with the argument both in your insistence of different intelligence and Roe vs Wade insistence that something not self aware is a different type of whatever.   

Just because intelligence is not as organized as another intelligence does not mean that it is a completely different kind of intelligence.  I submit that the intelligence by which G-d communicates with all intelligence (organizes) is through the "order" of his priesthood and that all things in existence have intelligence and that by organizing intelligence - we (in the image of G-d) have dominion over created things.  And to insist that something is not intelligence is the essence of denying that it exists.  I stated previously that the essence of intelligence is basic but in its raw or natural state is unorganized.  That you as an individual are comprised of many cells - all of which contribute to your personal intelligence and ability to exist and is a gift from G-d.  In addition, you have been given - that there are intelligent cells within you that do not have your DNA and are not you but are organized with you such that their intelligence is added to yours - and that without such organization you would cease to exist as a living entity.  Also that there is intelligence that exist in all things that is not so different from your own intelligence that it cannot be organized such as to benefit and assist your own abilities to exist in this universe.  I submit that even subatomic particles consist of intelligence ordered such to function and exist in harmony that our universe can and does exist.  To say that there are things that are not connected by intelligence to G-d to be ordered by him is to deny creation and G-d's power to organize all things.

 

The Traveler

 

The Traveler

I am pretty much in agreement here with you. I still think we misunderstandings each other's argument. I am saying that the way in which the computer is assembled- in it's functioning capability, does not make it intelligent in the definition of thinking, being self aware, having emotions and feelings, etc.

[Fifthziff]

Organization is also useful for systems to work together and benefit each other.  Like batteries lined up in an organized pattern does something different than a bag of batteries in a random pattern. 

[Fifthziff]

On 1/19/2019 at 1:58 PM, askandanswer said:

I think it is God's desire to give all forms of life the maximum opportunities to progress as far as they can and becoming like God is as far as we can progress, so perhaps in some way, animals also have this opportunity, although on a different timeframe.

I think progression should be looked at as related to the level of eternal connection one has with other intelligences and not as an individual being's personal progression.  Of course, one's personal progression relates to how connected one is to those around them.  This is why it is important to love our neighbor as self.  If one were to do that perfectly then there would not be a division between what considers a separate intelligence.   ... we don't call the ocean a bazillion drops of water even though we could separate out one drop from the ocean.  A perfect connection, i.e. - One God, is that level of nothing hidden from anyone else as one cannot hide even a thought from God which is what is found in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Fifthziff