My Thoughts on Organizing Intelligences

[professionallet]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:28 PM, Anddenex said:

What evidence, scriptural or prophetic quotes would you use to validate your thought with Cherubims? Cherubim were placed in front of the tree of life so that Adam and Eve would not partake of its fruit. In this manner you feel that Christ was placed in front of this tree with a flaming sword that they could not partake?

The following words within our Bible Dictionary, "Figures representing heavenly creatures, the exact form being unknown. They are found in the Holy of Holies, on the Mercy Seat of the Ark (Ex. 25:18, 22; 1 Kgs. 6:23–28; Heb. 9:5), and in the visions of Ezekiel (Ezek. 10; 11:22). In the account of the Fall, cherubim are represented as keeping “the way of the tree of life” (Gen. 3:24)." (emphasis mine) We know the form of Christ isn't unknown.

I can agree pertaining to symbolism of Christ, as Moses and Joseph, are symbols of Christ (pointing back to him), but not sure how you are meaning title. I am thinking of title i.e. Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Savior, etc... How are you using "title" here?

Hi, we don't know the exact form of the figures. Figures are representations. In the various mention of Seraphim and Cherubim, their descriptions vary a great deal, while still maintaining some consistent themes and elements. Cherubim and Seraphim are angels. But they are also a represention of groups of angels, or they can represent levels of heaven. Some depictions show one angel standing in for an entire hierarchy of angels. In Ezekiel, it's made explicit that Ezekiel is having symbolic visions. The angels are depicted differently throughout. There are wheels and eyes. Ezekiels vision of the heavens is known as merkevah and has to do with chariots (hence wheels). The angels themselves, being very numerous gather together in the form or shape of a giant chariot. These angels are depicted as having many faces, each representing a cardinal direction. And from one verse to another, a face is changed because its all symbolic anyways. Surrounding the chariot are angels called orphanim who are themselves shaped like wheels, not just gathered together in that shape but they look like wheels. These angels are described as a wheel inside a wheel (so maybe a depiction of angelic hierarchies)  Ezekiels vision has to do with seeing the throne of God and has angels surrounding it and lots of symbolic language as well. The chariot is driven by the Lord and the point is that all the angels are looking at the man driving the chariot - its a prophecy of Christ. 

Mervevah is part of heckelot literature. This means chariot or works of the chariot. This literature consists of experiences of prophets seeing heaven and the throne of God and ascending to heaven, sometimes being themselves crowned as an angel. There's an overlap here with apocalyptic and ascent literature like that in ancient alexandria. A prophet travels to heaven and is given a depiction of heaven. Often seven heavens, with different descriptions of things pertaining to judgement or authorities in heavens. Kingdoms principalities and powers as mentioned in scripture are names for different classifications and types of angels. In some literature you have models like the helio centric model in alexandria used to describe different levels of heaven, or in other literature and the Bible, you have the firmament levels from mesopatamia used to describe levels and aspects of heaven. 

Some Semitic mythology mentioned in a poetic and symbolic way in scripture is that of the behemoth and the leviathan. The leviathan and behemoth can represent enemies, fallen angels or levels of heaven or levels of angels. 

A very common theme is the angels in concentric, leveled circles. Dante has depictions of circles of angels in visions. Prophets saw circles of angels. New testament Christians had many depictions of angels in similar formations. These were often called chorals of angels. It's the same thing. Levels and authorities of angels along with some other information. 

Seraphim means burning (and also serpent) and it's where we get shining one which is one of the names for Satan. The serpent is an angelic being decieved by Satan (you're not bound to that interpretation, I think it can be a snake or an angel) seraphim also is a word that is not by chance similar to the egyptian word for snake. Snakes are associated with wisdom in Egypt and other cultures. So we get the idea of the cunning and deceptive serpent reflected in the word. 

Angels are thus seen as being wise and serpent like. The Lord councils his disciples in the new testament to be wise as serpants. 

The words in genesis chapters 1 through 11 reflect some symbolic changes because after the babylon captivity, a redaction of the first chapters of genesis is believed to have taken place, thus using babylonian and Egyptian captivity motifs and motifs from these religions and cultures to symbolically reveal certain things. This is why mesopatamian myths and other ideas of giants and legendary heavenly heroes are used as symbols for angels and in other contexts. 

The Lord commands Moses to build two seraphim with big wings stretching over the center of the Ark of the Covenant. And the Lord would appear on top of the Ark of the Covenant between the two statues when he'd council with Isreal. (Two seraphim can be seen all over Egypt, we can assume the isrealites saw this while captive) Thus the Lord is known as the thou that dwellest between the cherubims. 

"And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel."

winged creatures and men were all over mesopamia as a symbol. Angels don't actually have wings of course. It's all a symbol of their power and authority and other things. The lammasu is a mythical protective diety that is a beast with a human head. Its just like the synphx or a something above the arc of the Covenant. The isrealites used imagery from the rivals they encountered. 

Anyways, theres several scriptures in Revelation and other places where Christ tells us that He is the tree of life. In Revelation one of the visions of heaven is of the tree of life. The book of Revelation speaks of Christ as having a two edged sword that proceeds out of his mouth. Isaiah mentions this and mixes it with the imagery of the rod of the Lords mouth which is his judgement and justice. 

The Lord is the true vine and the tree of life (he is after all what Adam and Eve would seek to get back to but they were not ready) if we think of the vision of the tree of life that Lehi dreamed, the justice of God separates fallen man from God. 

The cherubim described in the Garden of Eden are a depiction of angels guarding heaven or returning to Heaven and Christ. Christ is Himself the tree of life. It always lead to Him. The sword is Christ's word and jugdement. Now, does thus mean Christ was standing there with a sword? I'm not saying I know the configuration that the angels were in in the Garden but something is clear. 

The fall of Adam and eve is true and not merely symbolic but the prophets and scribes purposefully highlighted certain details and framed it in a way to also have a symbolic meaning of the Temple. The later mosaic temple ordinances would have symbols to reference the Garden of Eden and Heaven. The tree of life is in the middle in the holy of holies. It resembles a temple menorah. The garden of Eden is at the center of creation. There's an outer garden courtyard and gem imagery is referenced outside. As though their are gems oumb the outside "walls" of the temple. 

The cherubim stand on either side of the tree of life like those statues stand over the arc of the Covenant. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, professionallet said:

Mervevah is part of heckelot literature.

Hoh boy!

[JohnsonJones]

In reflection of the recent post I had a thought (and it is only that, a thought) regarding how the 7 heavens of Judaic literature could reflect on our own eschatology.
 

1st Heaven - This world, this earth.  This mortality.  This is where Adam and Eve dwelt.

2nd Heaven - The Spirit World.  It is said this is where those tossed out of heaven dwell as well.  It is home to those both good and evil who are spirits.

3rd Heaven - The Telestial world.  This is where the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life supposedly are.  If it is a Telestial but perfected world I could see it as a Garden or as the Garden of Eden for those who have a Telestial Glory.

4th Heaven - This contains the heavenly Jerusalem and temple and Altar.  This is where the Lord can come to visit and those in the Celestial Kingdom come and visit and teach.  It is ruled by the Archangel Michael.  I could see this as the Terrestrial World.

5th Heaven - 3rd Degree of the Celestial Kingdom.  They are not quite full enough to be in the 6th heaven.

6th Heaven - 2nd degree of the  Celestial Kingdom.  Those who serve those in the 7th Heaven.

7th Heaven - This is where God dwells.  This is where his throne is located.  This iis the abode of all unborn human souls.  I'd say this is also equivalent of the Highest degree of the Celestial  Kingdom. 

 

Just some thoughts I had while reading the thread regarding some connections that could be had between our own religious beliefs and some of the more mystical beliefs found elsewhere. 

[Traveler]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:57 AM, JohnsonJones said:

In reflection of the recent post I had a thought (and it is only that, a thought) regarding how the 7 heavens of Judaic literature could reflect on our own eschatology.
 

1st Heaven - This world, this earth.  This mortality.  This is where Adam and Eve dwelt.

2nd Heaven - The Spirit World.  It is said this is where those tossed out of heaven dwell as well.  It is home to those both good and evil who are spirits.

3rd Heaven - The Telestial world.  This is where the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life supposedly are.  If it is a Telestial but perfected world I could see it as a Garden or as the Garden of Eden for those who have a Telestial Glory.

4th Heaven - This contains the heavenly Jerusalem and temple and Altar.  This is where the Lord can come to visit and those in the Celestial Kingdom come and visit and teach.  It is ruled by the Archangel Michael.  I could see this as the Terrestrial World.

5th Heaven - 3rd Degree of the Celestial Kingdom.  They are not quite full enough to be in the 6th heaven.

6th Heaven - 2nd degree of the  Celestial Kingdom.  Those who serve those in the 7th Heaven.

7th Heaven - This is where God dwells.  This is where his throne is located.  This iis the abode of all unborn human souls.  I'd say this is also equivalent of the Highest degree of the Celestial  Kingdom. 

 

Just some thoughts I had while reading the thread regarding some connections that could be had between our own religious beliefs and some of the more mystical beliefs found elsewhere. 

My understanding of 7 heavens - comes from the ancient calender.  There were 6 gates through which the sun would rise and set (twice) through the year.  The 7th heaves was the palce that G-d dwelt.  This is explained in the non-Biblical text called The Book of Enoch.

As a side note (my specific interpertation) - in Genesis when it says that G-d created the "heavens" (plural) and the earth (singular) that this Genesis reverence is referring to out solar system.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On 12/14/2022 at 2:17 AM, professionallet said:

Hi, we don't know the exact form of the figures. Figures are representations. In the various mention of Seraphim and Cherubim, their descriptions vary a great deal, while still maintaining some consistent themes and elements. Cherubim and Seraphim are angels. But they are also a represention of groups of angels, or they can represent levels of heaven. Some depictions show one angel standing in for an entire hierarchy of angels. In Ezekiel, it's made explicit that Ezekiel is having symbolic visions. The angels are depicted differently throughout. There are wheels and eyes. Ezekiels vision of the heavens is known as merkevah and has to do with chariots (hence wheels). The angels themselves, being very numerous gather together in the form or shape of a giant chariot. These angels are depicted as having many faces, each representing a cardinal direction. And from one verse to another, a face is changed because its all symbolic anyways. Surrounding the chariot are angels called orphanim who are themselves shaped like wheels, not just gathered together in that shape but they look like wheels. These angels are described as a wheel inside a wheel (so maybe a depiction of angelic hierarchies)  Ezekiels vision has to do with seeing the throne of God and has angels surrounding it and lots of symbolic language as well. The chariot is driven by the Lord and the point is that all the angels are looking at the man driving the chariot - its a prophecy of Christ. 

Mervevah is part of heckelot literature. This means chariot or works of the chariot. This literature consists of experiences of prophets seeing heaven and the throne of God and ascending to heaven, sometimes being themselves crowned as an angel. There's an overlap here with apocalyptic and ascent literature like that in ancient alexandria. A prophet travels to heaven and is given a depiction of heaven. Often seven heavens, with different descriptions of things pertaining to judgement or authorities in heavens. Kingdoms principalities and powers as mentioned in scripture are names for different classifications and types of angels. In some literature you have models like the helio centric model in alexandria used to describe different levels of heaven, or in other literature and the Bible, you have the firmament levels from mesopatamia used to describe levels and aspects of heaven. 

Some Semitic mythology mentioned in a poetic and symbolic way in scripture is that of the behemoth and the leviathan. The leviathan and behemoth can represent enemies, fallen angels or levels of heaven or levels of angels. 

A very common theme is the angels in concentric, leveled circles. Dante has depictions of circles of angels in visions. Prophets saw circles of angels. New testament Christians had many depictions of angels in similar formations. These were often called chorals of angels. It's the same thing. Levels and authorities of angels along with some other information. 

Seraphim means burning (and also serpent) and it's where we get shining one which is one of the names for Satan. The serpent is an angelic being decieved by Satan (you're not bound to that interpretation, I think it can be a snake or an angel) seraphim also is a word that is not by chance similar to the egyptian word for snake. Snakes are associated with wisdom in Egypt and other cultures. So we get the idea of the cunning and deceptive serpent reflected in the word. 

Angels are thus seen as being wise and serpent like. The Lord councils his disciples in the new testament to be wise as serpants. 

The words in genesis chapters 1 through 11 reflect some symbolic changes because after the babylon captivity, a redaction of the first chapters of genesis is believed to have taken place, thus using babylonian and Egyptian captivity motifs and motifs from these religions and cultures to symbolically reveal certain things. This is why mesopatamian myths and other ideas of giants and legendary heavenly heroes are used as symbols for angels and in other contexts. 

The Lord commands Moses to build two seraphim with big wings stretching over the center of the Ark of the Covenant. And the Lord would appear on top of the Ark of the Covenant between the two statues when he'd council with Isreal. (Two seraphim can be seen all over Egypt, we can assume the isrealites saw this while captive) Thus the Lord is known as the thou that dwellest between the cherubims. 

"And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel."

winged creatures and men were all over mesopamia as a symbol. Angels don't actually have wings of course. It's all a symbol of their power and authority and other things. The lammasu is a mythical protective diety that is a beast with a human head. Its just like the synphx or a something above the arc of the Covenant. The isrealites used imagery from the rivals they encountered. 

Anyways, theres several scriptures in Revelation and other places where Christ tells us that He is the tree of life. In Revelation one of the visions of heaven is of the tree of life. The book of Revelation speaks of Christ as having a two edged sword that proceeds out of his mouth. Isaiah mentions this and mixes it with the imagery of the rod of the Lords mouth which is his judgement and justice. 

The Lord is the true vine and the tree of life (he is after all what Adam and Eve would seek to get back to but they were not ready) if we think of the vision of the tree of life that Lehi dreamed, the justice of God separates fallen man from God. 

The cherubim described in the Garden of Eden are a depiction of angels guarding heaven or returning to Heaven and Christ. Christ is Himself the tree of life. It always lead to Him. The sword is Christ's word and jugdement. Now, does thus mean Christ was standing there with a sword? I'm not saying I know the configuration that the angels were in in the Garden but something is clear. 

The fall of Adam and eve is true and not merely symbolic but the prophets and scribes purposefully highlighted certain details and framed it in a way to also have a symbolic meaning of the Temple. The later mosaic temple ordinances would have symbols to reference the Garden of Eden and Heaven. The tree of life is in the middle in the holy of holies. It resembles a temple menorah. The garden of Eden is at the center of creation. There's an outer garden courtyard and gem imagery is referenced outside. As though their are gems oumb the outside "walls" of the temple. 

The cherubim stand on either side of the tree of life like those statues stand over the arc of the Covenant. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The term cherubim is a plural word - the singular word is cherub.  We also know from scripture that Cherubim are anointed which is also the designation or meaning of Christ or Messiah.  It is interesting to me that Cherubim always come in pairs.  I would ask you a question about the Cherubim at the mercy seat (mercy seat representing the judgment seat of G-d).  The question is - Does Jesus sit at the right hand of G-d?  Is it not tradition that Satan and his followers will be on the left hand of G-d for judgement?

Can you give me any symbolic reference for cherubim that do not apply to Christ or Messiah?

 

A few other questions – if you do not mind – that I need to ask because I was confused.  Where are we told in scripture that the Tree of Life was in Eden and in its center?  I find no reference to the tree of life until after Adam and Eve were driven from Eden.  Also were not the Cherubim to keep the way not the tree itself?   Why do you assume the Eden epoch was not symbolic?  Was the Serpent symbolic?  The Hebrew term for Adam means mankind and Eve means mother of all living – if Adan and Eve are literal and not symbolic why did all mankind fall and not just Adam and Eve.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 21, 2022 by Traveler

[Carborendum]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

The term cherubim is a plural word - the singular word is cherub.  We also know from scripture that Cherubim are anointed which is also the designation or meaning of Christ or Messiah.  It is interesting to me that Cherubim always come in pairs.  I would ask you a question about the Cherubim at the mercy seat (mercy seat representing the judgment seat of G-d).  The question is - Does Jesus sit at the right hand of G-d?  Is it not tradition that Satan and his followers will be on the left hand of G-d for judgement?

You're looking at "facing each other" as "opposing each other".  Not so.  2 Chron 3:13 describe them as facing "inward." 

What are they doing?  They are bowing before God.  And they are using their wings to contain the glory of God from melting (a-la Indiana Jones style) the people around the ark.

They were not opposing each other.  They were side-by-side and they turned inward to face the presence & power of God.  It was not about their position in reference to each other.  It never was.  It is always about looking towards God.

Tell me how or when Satan would ever do that.

Being a mirrored position does not always indicate an opposing spiritual position.

And I'm not really familiar with any cherub described as a symbolic representation of Christ.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.

[Traveler]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You're looking at "facing each other" as "opposing each other".  Not so.  2 Chron 3:13 describe them as facing "inward." 

What are they doing?  They are bowing before God.  And they are using their wings to contain the glory of God from melting (a-la Indiana Jones style) the people around the ark.

They were not opposing each other.  They were side-by-side and they turned inward to face the presence & power of God.  It was not about their position in reference to each other.  It never was.  It is always about looking towards God.

Tell me how or when Satan would ever do that.

Being a mirrored position does not always indicate an opposing spiritual position.

And I'm not really familiar with any cherub described as a symbolic representation of Christ.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Thank you for your interest.  I would have you look at Exekiel 28:14

Quote

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

The only reference I can find to a covering cherub is the reference of two cherubim you referenced - Perhaps you can explain why one is cast from the holy mountain of G-d (heaven)? -- that could not possibly be Satan?  who then?

I need to answer your question:  Note in term "anointed" in verse 14.  Anointed is also translated as Christ or Messiah.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 21, 2022 by Traveler

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for your interest.  I would have you look at Exekiel 28:14

That reference is about the King of Tyre.  He was given much though the Lord.  He was favored of God.  But pride goeth before the fall.  And even though he was God's anointed.  He lost that favored state.

So, what's your point?

I asked you to provide a reference where a cherub referred to Christ.  And you gave me a reference which showed that the Lord referred to a mortal man as a cherub.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The only reference I can find to a covering cherub is the reference of two cherubim you referenced

Not that it matters, but you yourself gave the reference of a "covering cherub."

Quote

14 Thou are anointed cherub who covereth.

16...and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Regardless, the fact remains that we are indeed talking about the ark.  And that reference in Ex 37 says they are indeed covering the area that would represent the Lord's presence.  Their wings cover.  That's their symbolism. Even Seraphs used their wings to cover (Isa 6).

We don't need another reference to verify that this specific reference says they covered the mercy seat.  It's already written.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

- Perhaps you can explain why one is cast from the holy mountain of G-d (heaven)? -- that could not possibly be Satan?  who then?

The mountain of God is the temple.  We go to the "Mountain of the Lord's House." 

He was specifically talking about Tyrus. A person being excommunicated cannot enter the temple again.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I need to answer your question:  Note in term "anointed" in verse 14.  Anointed is also translated as Christ or Messiah.

While true, you have it backwards.  To the Jews, the word "Messiah" has fallen out of favor because (as they see it) Christians have co-opted the word from them.

The word "messiah" (maw-shee'-akh) means anointed one.  But only modern Christians believe that automatically means Jesus the Christ.  Biblically, it simply meant "anointed one." Later, the idea of a king that was anointed by the Lord's oracle was "the anointed king."  Therefore, the meaning changed from "anyone who is anointed" to become "The Lord's Anointed" (maw-shee'-akh yeh-ho-vaw'). David uses this term to refer to Saul.

Quote

11 The Lord forbid that I should stretch forth mine hand against the Lord’s anointed: but, I pray thee, take thou now the spear that is at his bolster, and the cruse of water, and let us go.

1 Sam 26

So, it is only Christian fallacy to think that EVERY use of "messiah" automatically refers to "The Messiah."  Tyrus was the king.  He was the anointed king.  Thus, he was the messiah of the kingdom.  But not "THE MESSIAH." 

Any time a word has multiple meanings, you have to look at context for the precise usage.

As much as anyone, I appreciate being able to connect meanings via cross-reference.  But when doing so, you have to take a step back and recognize when the context in each reference does or does not talk about the same thing.  And these references you're putting together do NOT talk about the same thing.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That reference is about the King of Tyre.  He was given much though the Lord.  He was favored of God.  But pride goeth before the fall.  And even though he was God's anointed.  He lost that favored state.

So, what's your point?

I asked you to provide a reference where a cherub referred to Christ.  And you gave me a reference which showed that the Lord referred to a mortal man as a cherub.

Not that it matters, but you yourself gave the reference of a "covering cherub."

Regardless, the fact remains that we are indeed talking about the ark.  And that reference in Ex 37 says they are indeed covering the area that would represent the Lord's presence.  Their wings cover.  That's their symbolism. Even Seraphs used their wings to cover (Isa 6).

We don't need another reference to verify that this specific reference says they covered the mercy seat.  It's already written.

The mountain of God is the temple.  We go to the "Mountain of the Lord's House." 

He was specifically talking about Tyrus. A person being excommunicated cannot enter the temple again.

While true, you have it backwards.  To the Jews, the word "Messiah" has fallen out of favor because (as they see it) Christians have co-opted the word from them.

The word "messiah" (maw-shee'-akh) means anointed one.  But only modern Christians believe that automatically means Jesus the Christ.  Biblically, it simply meant "anointed one." Later, the idea of a king that was anointed by the Lord's oracle was "the anointed king."  Therefore, the meaning changed from "anyone who is anointed" to become "The Lord's Anointed" (maw-shee'-akh yeh-ho-vaw'). David uses this term to refer to Saul.

So, it is only Christian fallacy to think that EVERY use of "messiah" automatically refers to "The Messiah."  Tyrus was the king.  He was the anointed king.  Thus, he was the messiah of the kingdom.  But not "THE MESSIAH." 

Any time a word has multiple meanings, you have to look at context for the precise usage.

As much as anyone, I appreciate being able to connect meanings via cross-reference.  But when doing so, you have to take a step back and recognize when the context in each reference does or does not talk about the same thing.  And these references you're putting together do NOT talk about the same thing.

Thank you for responding.

So you believe that the King of Tyre was present with Adam and Eve in Eden?  

What I did was look up all the references of Cherubim (cherub) in Biblical scripture.  I included all the symbolism that was associated with Cherubim.  All the symbolism parallels Jesus the Christ and Satan.  We see a parallel above to Satan.  It is also believed that at judgement Jesus and his followers will be at the right hand of G-d and that Satan and his followers will be at the left hand of G-d.  Does this have anything to do with the temple of G-d and what we learn there?

The mountain of G-d is symbolic of the temple -- I agree 100%.  The temple is symbolic of where G-d dwells which is in his kingdom of heaven.   I could ask some questions about the Celestial room of the temple for more clarification – but I hope such is not necessary.

I will now give you and exercise.  In Genesis we are told that Cherubim and a flaming sword will be encountered by any and every person that seeks the Tree of life.  Can we agree that the Tree of Life is the great gift of G-d’s love and is eternal life?  Regardless – where does the scriptures speak again of someone with a sword and fire and who is that someone and what are they doing with the sword and fire?  I will give a hint – it is in the Book of Revelation.

One last question:  What does Paul say in the New Testament about Cherubim?

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

So you believe that the King of Tyre was present with Adam and Eve in Eden?  

Traveler, I love you.  But sometimes it is difficult to tell when you're being sarcastic or literal.

The passage YOU REFERENCED from Ezek 28 states that this entire passage was addressed to King of Tyre.

Quote

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God;

The problem I am seeing here is that you seem to not understand the framework of metaphors and allusions.  You relate things "with some similarities" that were never meant to be considered "THE SAME".

You see this allusion to the "casting down" of ones favored of the Lord (Tyrus and Satan) and because Tyrus was ALSO labeled a figurative cherub, that this would mean that SATAN was ALSO a cherub.  That in and of itself is a leap (maybe a small leap, but a leap).  But then, you make another leap that has no connection.  You automatically assume that another reference to a cherub (the Ark) MUST be SATAN.  This is not written in the text.  There is no reference from this passage to the description of the ark.  You made that connection all on your own without anything in the scriptures connecting the two.  This is the same as saying EVERY mention of "messiah" MUST mean Jesus.  That simply isn't true.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Traveler, I love you.  But sometimes it is difficult to tell when you're being sarcastic or literal.

The passage YOU REFERENCED from Ezek 28 states that this entire passage was addressed to King of Tyre.

The problem I am seeing here is that you seem to not understand the framework of metaphors and allusions.  You relate things "with some similarities" that were never meant to be considered "THE SAME".

You see this allusion to the "casting down" of ones favored of the Lord (Tyrus and Satan) and because Tyrus was ALSO labeled a figurative cherub, that this would mean that SATAN was ALSO a cherub.  That in and of itself is a leap (maybe a small leap, but a leap).  But then, you make another leap that has no connection.  You automatically assume that another reference to a cherub (the Ark) MUST be SATAN.  This is not written in the text.  There is no reference from this passage to the description of the ark.  You made that connection all on your own without anything in the scriptures connecting the two.  This is the same as saying EVERY mention of "messiah" MUST mean Jesus.  That simply isn't true.

Thank you friend.  I would agree in part with what you are saying.  However, is there something else to be considered - like why was this particular Cherub in Eden?  The scriptures are very specific about what characters were residents in Eden - by my count the number is 3.  I would also contend that every mention of "Messiah" in scripture must of necessity have some understanding and connection to the Christ.  If you know of an exception, I would consider it. 

If you had looked up the references - you would find that when Jesus returns in power and glory - John (Revelation 19) says he will carry a sword and come with fire.  What I am trying to convince is that the purpose of Jesus coming with a sword and fire is the exact same purpose of the Cherubim keeping the way to the tree of Life in Genesis.   That the Cherubim is given as prophesy - I am suggesting what that prophesy is talking about.

Now go and read Hebrews chapter 9 and tell me what you think Paul is talking about?  Is there no prophetic connection of the temple in the holy of holies and the Cherubim before G-d to Christ also before G-d to deliver mankind to salvation?

 

The Traveler

Edited December 22, 2022 by Traveler