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Your last post makes sense logically.

But does not explain. This post...

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I might add one more thing- If marriage is only recognized in the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom, then we shouldn't be married right now.

And Earth / mortal life is not the Telestial Kingdom.  It is more of a transitory testing period.

I am a bit confused about your motivation.  Are attempting to seek information.  Teach your own version of the gospel. Or just troll the site?

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7 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Your last post makes sense logically.

But does not explain. This post...

And Earth / mortal life is not the Telestial Kingdom.  It is more of a transitory testing period.

I am a bit confused about your motivation.  Are attempting to seek information.  Teach your own version of the gospel. Or just troll the site?

We are in the telestial kingdom now. Whether one believes it is the same kingdom or different than after judgment and resurrection is irrelevant. The point Im making is that in our kingdom we are now in it is governed by law. Within that law are certain blessings and restrictions. Marriage is a blessing afforded to us in this kingdom. Because we are governed by telestial law it is safe to say that within telestial law marriage is recognized.

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5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

There is an interesting view going on here. Is this world "a" telestial world, or is it "the" telestial world? And, as such, why do we think it is different that "a" versus "the" would have different laws? My understanding is the same as the temple that we are in "the" telestial world/ kingdom. Bruce R. McConkie taught that telestial law was a carnal law. Not sure how a carnal law sanctifies. He got that wrong. In the endowment we are taught that telestial law consists of the lower portions of the Celestial law which included covenants pertaining to sexual relations with ones spouse. Telestial law regarding spouses states that sexual relations are only to be had between one spouse where they are legally and lawfully married. God not only recognizes marriage in the telestial kingdom but also recognizes and allows for sexual relations between lawfully wedded spouses in the telestial kingdom.

People will say though that this telestial kingdom is not the same telestial kingdom after resurrection and judgment and as such has different laws, abilities, etc. I say, wow, that's strange. That's like saying even though we live in the telestial kingdom we aren't governed by laws of a telestial kingdom. That's an oxymoron.

If one carefully reads the Proclamation they will come across this paragraph-

"In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally."

The family relationship, which includes sexual relationships within legally recognized marriages, are perpeptuated beyond the grave. It's part of what identifies us and within the bonds of marriage sexual relations are a holy thing that has sanctifying powers. We tend to think of sex as a dirty or carnal practice. Or, on the other hand think it can only be utilized by God's themselves as some rite of passage. God sees it differently. He not only recognizes sex as the uniting purpose in man, he commands that man and woman should be joined together in order to fill the measure of their creation. Not only that, he gives this procreative power to man in the lowest portion of the law in the telestial kingdom. It's a recognized practice and law in the telestial kingdom.

 

You should be aware I was merely pointing out that Joseph Fielding Smith (and actually Bruce R. Mckonkie if you read Mormon Doctrine, I can eventually write up his writing on the Telestial Kingdom to a degree) had a different belief of what happens in regards to the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial glory compared to what you believe.  This is the reason that you have difficulties or do not agree with his statements.

However, in a way, it is like comparing apples and oranges.  He would agree with you that we are able to have mortal posterity during this life.  That those married on this Earth in this mortal Telestial world are able to have children, and those in the Millennium will also have children.

The differences arise because he believes that those who are given glories in heaven that you do not feel exist, will not have the procreative powers.  Both he and you would agree that in Exaltation these powers will exist.

It boils down solely to the idea that he feels that the Telestial and Terrestrial glories are things that are given out in the Afterlife for eternity, and with them certain aspects, while you do not feel they even exist.

Hence the differences and reasons WHY he is saying what he says and why you may have trouble with it.  However, in the aspect of your belief, with the exception of the ideas of an eternal Telestial and Terrestrial glory in the afterlife, he is not actually disagreeing with your thoughts in regards to procreation in this Telestial world or the Millennium.

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5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I might add one more thing- If marriage is only recognized in the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom, then we shouldn't be married right now.

Exaltation, or the ability to have spirit children IS only able to be done in the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom.

However, you can still have Mortal Children while you are here.  He did not say anything against you doing such a thing, and in fact would agree that you can have these mortal children.

However, his statement would be that you cannot have Spirit children (whether in this life, or in the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms).  In addition, you cannot create a world and then create from dirt the bodies for those spirit children to inhabit in order for them to obtain permanent bodies and then go on to attain whatever degree of glory they themselves seek out.

This is impossible for you to do (though if you can, I would surely like to see how you can do this right now). 

You should read His writings for a better understanding of what he wrote and where he was coming from.  You would find it is not as different as you may think it is.

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50 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am LDS and endowed and sealed to my wife in the temple. Heres the logic-

We arent in the celestial kingdom physically right now are we?

We are in a lower order of kingdom right now. Still following?

In this lower order of kingdom God gives to us laws to abide by while here. Still following?

These first laws are part of or make up a portion of higher laws. Correct?

In this kingdom we are now in God gives to us law upon law, line upon line. Correct?

One of the laws he has given us in this kingdom is the law of chastity.

God has also given to us in this kingdom the eternal law of marriage of which we are to abide by.

Thus, for every kingdom there are laws and blessings. Activities within kingdoms are governed by eternal laws. We are allowed access to portions of Gods blessings in kingdoms according to laws. This means that as long as we follow the laws within that kingdom our activities within said kingdom are justified according to eternal law.

Still following?

Therefore, eternal marriage, which is a commandment is also both a law and a blessing. Even though our eternal marriage, in its fullest blessings, isn't realized until our glory within the celestial kingdom (a higher order of kingdom than the one we are now in), it is still upheld and recognized by law and as law within this lower kingdom we are now in. 

Thus, do you see this logic as offensive.

 

I'm not sure I follow you, and I don't find you offensive at all.  I will try to answer.

There is nothing in Joseph Fielding's writings or teachings that say you cannot be married and sealed in the Temple, in fact he encourages it.

You won't be able to have spirit children in this life however, nor will you be able to create physical bodies for those spirit children you created.  He would say that is something ONLY those who are exalted in the Celestial Kingdom can do.

You CAN create mortal bodies for your spirit brothers and sisters to experience mortality here on this earth. 

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6 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

You should be aware I was merely pointing out that Joseph Fielding Smith (and actually Bruce R. Mckonkie if you read Mormon Doctrine, I can eventually write up his writing on the Telestial Kingdom to a degree) had a different belief of what happens in regards to the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial glory compared to what you believe.  This is the reason that you have difficulties or do not agree with his statements.

However, in a way, it is like comparing apples and oranges.  He would agree with you that we are able to have mortal posterity during this life.  That those married on this Earth in this mortal Telestial world are able to have children, and those in the Millennium will also have children.

The differences arise because he believes that those who are given glories in heaven that you do not feel exist, will not have the procreative powers.  Both he and you would agree that in Exaltation these powers will exist.

It boils down solely to the idea that he feels that the Telestial and Terrestrial glories are things that are given out in the Afterlife for eternity, and with them certain aspects, while you do not feel they even exist.

Hence the differences and reasons WHY he is saying what he says and why you may have trouble with it.  However, in the aspect of your belief, with the exception of the ideas of an eternal Telestial and Terrestrial glory in the afterlife, he is not actually disagreeing with your thoughts in regards to procreation in this Telestial world or the Millennium.

I think the big disagreement in the conversation at hand is this erroneous idea that marriage is only recognized within the highest glory of the CK. Now, the real truth, strictly according to scripture, is that in order to reach the highest glory one must be married. That's all it says. It doesn't say anything more or less. Here-

"2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]"

Now, the logic is that we aren't married within the Celestial kingdom itself as marriage isn't given after resurrection and judgment. We are married "before". And, this marriage happens in a lower order of kingdoms. Thus, applying some simple logic, it's not saying eternal marriage is only recognized within the highest glory, it's saying instead that if one wants to go there he or she must be married at minimum. 

The logic of eternal laws is as follows- all of God's laws make up the fullness of laws within the CK. But, this doesn't mean he has completely different laws in lower kingdoms than the CK. Lower kingdoms, such as ours we are now in, have a portion of the laws that govern the CK, we just don't have all of them. The terrestrial kingdom has all of our laws of the telestial kingdom plus some additional laws. All those laws make up a greater portion of the laws of the CK but not all of them. Thus, all laws, whether telestial or terrestrial, are also Celestial, just that it's not the fullest measure of all the laws.

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4 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'm not sure I follow you, and I don't find you offensive at all.  I will try to answer.

There is nothing in Joseph Fielding's writings or teachings that say you cannot be married and sealed in the Temple, in fact he encourages it.

You won't be able to have spirit children in this life however, nor will you be able to create physical bodies for those spirit children you created.  He would say that is something ONLY those who are exalted in the Celestial Kingdom can do.

You CAN create mortal bodies for your spirit brothers and sisters to experience mortality here on this earth. 

I think the most important thing here is that the sexual reproductive parts of our bodies are utilized within the lower laws of this kingdom we are now in. And, as such, in eternity that same pattern exists.

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6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think the most important thing here is that the sexual reproductive parts of our bodies are utilized within the lower laws of this kingdom we are now in. And, as such, in eternity that same pattern exists.

I agree.  I'm not seeing how Fielding Smith disagrees with you at all on these points.

Once again, the only differences I see is that he feels that other degrees of glory exist AFTER the resurrection and appointment to these degrees are eternal.  As you do not believe these exist in that state, the best option is probably to disregard statements he has made in regards to the conditions of those in those degrees and consider it his personal beliefs.

You are trying to apply the basketballs to apples. 

He completely agrees with you in regards to what you feel about procreation in this world and the millennial world. 

He made some statements regarding the judgment AFTER THIS LIFE and the results of those who do not make it to Exaltation.  As you do not believe in this belief (from what I can tell) then his statements should have no application in regards to your own from what I can see. 

It is like a Catholic telling us that all babies go to Limbo.  It has no application to our belief as we don't even believe in Limbo.

PS: On the otherhand, for those that DO believe the same as the Catholics, it may have a great deal to do with their belief.  The same applies here.  His teaching on degrees of glory you do not believe in regarding after judgment and during the eternities should have no bearing on your thoughts really, but may have a great deal of bearing for those who do believe the same thing.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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57 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I agree.  I'm not seeing how Fielding Smith disagrees with you at all on these points.

Once again, the only differences I see is that he feels that other degrees of glory exist AFTER the resurrection and appointment to these degrees are eternal.  As you do not believe these exist in that state, the best option is probably to disregard statements he has made in regards to the conditions of those in those degrees and consider it his personal beliefs.

You are trying to apply the basketballs to apples. 

He completely agrees with you in regards to what you feel about procreation in this world and the millennial world. 

He made some statements regarding the judgment AFTER THIS LIFE and the results of those who do not make it to Exaltation.  As you do not believe in this belief (from what I can tell) then his statements should have no application in regards to your own from what I can see. 

It is like a Catholic telling us that all babies go to Limbo.  It has no application to our belief as we don't even believe in Limbo.

PS: On the otherhand, for those that DO believe the same as the Catholics, it may have a great deal to do with their belief.  The same applies here.  His teaching on degrees of glory you do not believe in regarding after judgment and during the eternities should have no bearing on your thoughts really, but may have a great deal of bearing for those who do believe the same thing.

Aye, I think the big difference is not so much in wether or not there are three separate world's of glory or one but perhaps the belief that lower kingdoms have laws granting marriage and sexual relations within marriages. He doesn't believe so, I believe otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

We are in the telestial kingdom now. Whether one believes it is the same kingdom or different than after judgment and resurrection is irrelevant. The point Im making is that in our kingdom we are now in it is governed by law. Within that law are certain blessings and restrictions. Marriage is a blessing afforded to us in this kingdom. Because we are governed by telestial law it is safe to say that within telestial law marriage is recognized.

 

Why not try and consider that we are not in the Telestial Kingdom.  And that we are governed by a mortal probationary law instead of a Telestial law.

That alone could solve many of your hang-ups.

D&C 76: 89-99 might be of particular interest

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31 minutes ago, mikbone said:

 

Why not try and consider that we are not in the Telestial Kingdom.  And that we are governed by a mortal probationary law instead of a Telestial law.

That alone could solve many of your hang-ups.

D&C 76: 89-99 might be of particular interest

Hum...the temple teaches us otherwise though. We learn two very important things there. First, we learn that our world we now live in is the telestial kingdom/ telestial world. And second, we receive commandments and laws here that govern this kingdom. 

I mean we could disregard what the temple says, pretend the wording is different but where does that put us?

Also, if you think we are under just a mortal and probationary law, does this mean that the law of sacrifice, law of chastity, law of obedience, etc, are just mortal probationary laws?

 

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The Family Proclamation says gender is eternal. It doesn't say sex is (I'm not talking about "having" sex, I'm talking about being a sex). Though I personally doubt it, I can't see how it would be any more speculative than all the other speculation that seems to occur that the eternity of "gender" is something beyond sex organs, and that sex organs are a reflection of gender rather than the other way around, eternally speaking, and that thereby the quote could be correct and still in line with the Proclamation on the Family. 

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The Family Proclamation says gender is eternal. It doesn't say sex is (I'm not talking about "having" sex, I'm talking about being a sex). Though I personally doubt it, I can't see how it would be any more speculative than all the other speculation that seems to occur that the eternity of "gender" is something beyond sex organs, and that sex organs are a reflection of gender rather than the other way around, eternally speaking, and that thereby the quote could be correct and still in line with the Proclamation on the Family. 

TFP, you have a nasty habit of making me think. 

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The Family Proclamation says gender is eternal. It doesn't say sex is (I'm not talking about "having" sex, I'm talking about being a sex). Though I personally doubt it, I can't see how it would be any more speculative than all the other speculation that seems to occur that the eternity of "gender" is something beyond sex organs, and that sex organs are a reflection of gender rather than the other way around, eternally speaking, and that thereby the quote could be correct and still in line with the Proclamation on the Family. 

Sex organs are as a much a part of our eternal gender identity as anything else.

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39 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

TFP, you have a nasty habit of making me think. 

Well, think about D&C 88.  Something therein is said of those who will inherit the celestial that is not said of those who will not (v28-31).  Now maybe the difference can be excused but I'm not convinced it's meaningless - it may be, but I can't find anything definitive that says otherwise.

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...the temple teaches us otherwise though. We learn two very important things there. First, we learn that our world we now live in is the telestial kingdom/ telestial world. And second, we receive commandments and laws here that govern this kingdom. 

I mean we could disregard what the temple says, pretend the wording is different but where does that put us?

Also, if you think we are under just a mortal and probationary law, does this mean that the law of sacrifice, law of chastity, law of obedience, etc, are just mortal probationary laws?

 

But it is ok for you to ignore D&C 76?

The Temple narrative teaches us that the Earth originally had a paradisaical glory, now it sustains a telestial glory.  During the Millennium it will likely have a terrestrial glory.

The Earth has already been baptized (the flood), and it will go through a baptism of fire (the destruction of fire at the last days), and eventually it will become celestialized. see D&C 88:18-19, and D&C 77:1.  

The final Judgement occurs after the millennium.  Only celestial beings we be able to dwell with God on the Earth after it has been celestialized - this Earth will be the CK.  Those that are judged to be terrestrial or terrestrial will have to go to other spheres of glory.  And the Son's of Perdition will be cast out to a location without glory.  

 

We will continue to follow God's laws.  And I assume that there will be other covenants that we will have to partake of as we continue to become more like our Heavenly Parents.  

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1 hour ago, mikbone said:

But it is ok for you to ignore D&C 76?

The Temple narrative teaches us that the Earth originally had a paradisaical glory, now it sustains a telestial glory.  During the Millennium it will likely have a terrestrial glory.

The Earth has already been baptized (the flood), and it will go through a baptism of fire (the destruction of fire at the last days), and eventually it will become celestialized. see D&C 88:18-19, and D&C 77:1.  

The final Judgement occurs after the millennium.  Only celestial beings we be able to dwell with God on the Earth after it has been celestialized - this Earth will be the CK.  Those that are judged to be terrestrial or terrestrial will have to go to other spheres of glory.  And the Son's of Perdition will be cast out to a location without glory.  

 

We will continue to follow God's laws.  And I assume that there will be other covenants that we will have to partake of as we continue to become more like our Heavenly Parents.  

We are all on the same page with everything you said except for my belief is different for the worlds of glory after resurrection and judgment. My belief is that only the earth in it's Celestial glory or outer darkness exists at that point. I believe the millennium is for the purpose to perfect all of Christ's fold to be presented spotless to the Father and all will dwell together as families in the CK 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/20/2019 at 3:36 AM, Rob Osborn said:

All resurrected bodies will be restored to their perfect orders with fully functioning parts.

Will we have appendixes?  Without blood, what function will our spleens have?  

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Just now, Rob Osborn said:

Who's to say we won't have blood?

Joseph Fielding Smith and Brigham Young.  In one of JFS's "Answers to Gospel Questions" chapters, which was used back in 1973 as the priesthood study manual, he indicated that immortal beings didn't have blood, but when the immortal Adam fell and became mortal, blood came into his veins for the first time.  I was on my mission in Germany at the time, and when this came up, it caused a recent convert 's eyes to bulge and jaw to drop.  It was the last we saw of him.  At least for a while.  It really thrrew him for a loop.

You haven't noticed that whenever Heavenly Father is spoken of, it is never as having a body of "flesh and blood" but one of "flesh and bone"?

And then we have this, from chapter 37 of Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, speaking of Christ:

The blood he spilled upon Mount Calvary he did not receive again into his veins. That was poured out, and when he was resurrected, another element took the place of the blood. It will be so with every person who receives a resurrection; the blood will not be resurrected with the body, being designed only to sustain the life of the present organization. When that is dissolved, and we again obtain our bodies by the power of the resurrection, that which we now call the life of the body, and which is formed from the food we eat and the water we drink will be supplanted by another element; for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God [see 1 Corinthians 15:50] (DBY, 374).

I Cor 15:50: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

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31 minutes ago, Starwatcher said:

Will we have appendixes?  Without blood, what function will our spleens have?  

There are many mysteries in this.  What about the Heart or how do our other systems do?

The idea is that we would be Spirit and Bone (or instead of blood we have spirit take it's place).  Perhaps they will have things to do with the Spirit flowing through our bodies.

I have no idea but it could be that we will have a higher order of them (our organs) to do depending on what type of body we have in the eternities.

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