Celestial kingdom x Spirit Realm


Edspringer
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Hi, there

Many people who I have been talking to about  premortal life think we lived in the celestial kingdom with God before coming to Earth. What are your thoughts on the matter? Is  there any scripture,  Church leader or scholar`s words that show that we lived in the celestial kingdom of God before coming to Earth? I`d really appreciate to learn from you

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1 hour ago, Edspringer said:

Hi, there

Many people who I have been talking to about  premortal life think we lived in the celestial kingdom with God before coming to Earth. What are your thoughts on the matter? Is  there any scripture,  Church leader or scholar`s words that show that we lived in the celestial kingdom of God before coming to Earth? I`d really appreciate to learn from you

Just one of many similar quotes on the subject from the Church leaders:

“A long time before you and I came here upon this stage of action, we had an intelligent existence; we dwelt in a better world than this, and a world that had been redeemed, a world that had been sanctified and glorified; in other words, a world that had been made celestial, just as we are in hopes that our present world will, at some future period, be exalted to the celestial glory, and become the habitation of celestial beings. That world we occupied, before we came here, was celestial; our Father had his dwelling place there, or, at least, one of his dwelling places; and we were surrounded by our Father's glory, we were familiar with his countenance, familiar with the beautiful mansions that were there—familiar with all the glory that existed there, so far as we were capable of comprehending. There was no veil drawn between us and our Father, no veil drawn between us and the associates of our Father, who were also celestial beings, many of them having been redeemed from a world more ancient.” (Orson Pratt, November 12, 1879)

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13 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

“A long time before you and I came here upon this stage of action, we had an intelligent existence; we dwelt in a better world than this, and a world that had been redeemed, a world that had been sanctified and glorified; in other words, a world that had been made celestial, just as we are in hopes that our present world will, at some future period, be exalted to the celestial glory, and become the habitation of celestial beings. That world we occupied, before we came here, was celestial; our Father had his dwelling place there, or, at least, one of his dwelling places; and we were surrounded by our Father's glory, we were familiar with his countenance, familiar with the beautiful mansions that were there—familiar with all the glory that existed there, so far as we were capable of comprehending. There was no veil drawn between us and our Father, no veil drawn between us and the associates of our Father, who were also celestial beings, many of them having been redeemed from a world more ancient.” (Orson Pratt, November 12, 1879)

Ok, it came from Orson Pratt. Can you tell the document from which it was taken? I`d realy appreciate

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2 hours ago, Edspringer said:

Ok, it came from Orson Pratt. Can you tell the document from which it was taken? I`d realy appreciate

 

2 hours ago, Edspringer said:

Ok, it came from Orson Pratt. Can you tell the document from which it was taken? I`d realy appreciate

Pre-Existence, in Spiritual Form, of Man, the Lower Animals and the Earth—The Temporal Probationary State—The Millennium—The Final Change

Discourse by Elder Orson Pratt, delivered at Mount Pleasant, November 12th, 1879.
Reported by Geo. F. Gibbs.
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This story begins a very long time ago, long before the earth began spinning in its orbit, long before the sun began to reach its fiery arms into the cold of space, long before creatures great and small had populated our planet. At the beginning of this story, you lived in a faraway, beautiful place.

We do not know many details about life in that premortal sphere, but we do know some. Our Heavenly Father has revealed to us who He is, who we are, and who we can become.

Back in that first estate, you knew with absolute certainty that God existed because you saw and heard Him. You knew Jesus Christ, who would become the Lamb of God. You had faith in Him. And you knew that your destiny was not to stay in the security of your premortal home. As much as you loved that eternal sphere, you knew you wanted and needed to embark on a journey. You would depart from the arms of your Father, pass through a veil of forgetfulness, receive a mortal body, and learn and experience things that hopefully would help you grow to become more like Father in Heaven and return to His presence.

In that sacred place, surrounded by those you knew and loved, the great question on your lips and in your heart must have been “Will I return safely to my heavenly home?”

Your Wonderful Journey Home,Dieter F. Uchtdorf, April 2013

Image result for plan of salvation ldsImage result for plan of salvation ldsImage result for plan of salvation lds

In my opinion, the Premortal World (PW) is not the Celestial Kingdom (CK).  I can't find concrete evidence either way.  But there are many drawings like the above.  And in most of those illustrations, the PW does not look like the CK (although the 3rd one does for contrast)...  I really like the first one with The Presence of God Venn diagram.  

Anyway, things that make me think that it is not the Celestial Kingdom.

1) We had no body in the PW thus we had limited interactions with Heavenly Father.  I'm sure that the CK has objects of matter that we can interact with.  

2) There was an ugly war in our PW.  I don't see that happening in the CK.  (Kinda like, I was allowed to rough house outside in the yard.  But Mom would not let us hang out in the master bedroom and goof off)

3) In the PW we noticed that there was one like unto God.  (Abraham 3: 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;)  If we had been in the CK there would have been many like unto God.  

4) Why would we have left the PW if it was already the CK.  Heck I would have preferred to just stay there and learn by osmosis.  And enjoy all the benefits of Heaven.  

5) When we enter into the Celestial Kingdom I don't imagine hanging out with other people's spirit children.  

Edited by mikbone
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8 hours ago, mikbone said:

Image result for plan of salvation ldsImage result for plan of salvation ldsImage result for plan of salvation lds

In my opinion, the Premortal World (PW) is not the Celestial Kingdom (CK).  I can't find concrete evidence either way.  But there are many drawings like the above.  And in most of those illustrations, the PW does not look like the CK (although the 3rd one does for contrast)...  I really like the first one with The Presence of God Venn diagram.  

Anyway, things that make me think that it is not the Celestial Kingdom.

1) We had no body in the PW thus we had limited interactions with Heavenly Father.  I'm sure that the CK has objects of matter that we can interact with.  

2) There was an ugly war in our PW.  I don't see that happening in the CK.  (Kinda like, I was allowed to rough house outside in the yard.  But Mom would not let us hang out in the master bedroom and goof off)

3) In the PW we noticed that there was one like unto God.  (Abraham 3: 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;)  If we had been in the CK there would have been many like unto God.  

4) Why would we have left the PW if it was already the CK.  Heck I would have preferred to just stay there and learn by osmosis.  And enjoy all the benefits of Heaven.  

5) When we enter into the Celestial Kingdom I don't imagine hanging out with other people's spirit children.  

I really enjoyed your highlights . They seem plausible to me. I myself have come to some of the same conclusion that you have, so I thank you for sharing it with me. 

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9 hours ago, mikbone said:

4) Why would we have left the PW if it was already the CK.  Heck I would have preferred to just stay there and learn by osmosis.  And enjoy all the benefits of Heaven.  

5) When we enter into the Celestial Kingdom I don't imagine hanging out with other people's spirit children.  

4)  We would have left the Pre-existence because we had reached the limit of our existence.  We could stay there as we were for the rest of eternity, always as children but never growing to our maturity, or we could strive to be like our Father.  As such, we would need to gain bodies and be tested to see whether we could/wanted to obtain the same glory as we saw with our eternal parent(s).  It is the natural way for children to grow and be like their parents.  This is why we left the Pre-existence, to grow up and become more like our Father and mature into our own right and degree of glory.

5) Why  not?  If the ideas about exaltation are correct and we are to have an eternal posterity...it would make sense that it would follow in the same pattern that was established for us.

Where will these baby spirit children live, and where will they grow until they too are ready to obtain physical bodies?

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3 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

4)  We would have left the Pre-existence because we had reached the limit of our existence.  We could stay there as we were for the rest of eternity, always as children but never growing to our maturity, or we could strive to be like our Father.  As such, we would need to gain bodies and be tested to see whether we could/wanted to obtain the same glory as we saw with our eternal parent(s).  It is the natural way for children to grow and be like their parents.  This is why we left the Pre-existence, to grow up and become more like our Father and mature into our own right and degree of glory.

5) Why  not?  If the ideas about exaltation are correct and we are to have an eternal posterity...it would make sense that it would follow in the same pattern that was established for us.

Where will these baby spirit children live, and where will they grow until they too are ready to obtain physical bodies?

Great insights.

Thanx

 

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We dwelt where the Father dwelt, we are his children his offspring. What children do you know of that dwell any other place besides where their mother and father dwell? We know this earth becomes the Celestial Kingdom.

If you are referring to the pre-mortal life as where those dwell who have become like the Father, received all he has, then "No" the pre-mortal realm was not the Celestial Kingdom we would dwell upon.

Where the Father dwells, if that is called "a" Celestial Kingdom then indeed that is where we are from and that is what is considered as our pre-mortal life.

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1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

We dwelt where the Father dwelt, we are his children his offspring. What children do you know of that dwell any other place besides where their mother and father dwell? We know this earth becomes the Celestial Kingdom.

If you are referring to the pre-mortal life as where those dwell who have become like the Father, received all he has, then "No" the pre-mortal realm was not the Celestial Kingdom we would dwell upon.

Where the Father dwells, if that is called "a" Celestial Kingdom then indeed that is where we are from and that is what is considered as our pre-mortal life.

Great observations. Thank you

Well, I`ve been thinking about children not living with their parents, especially when they are growing. If things of this Earth are in the likeness of the things which are heavenly, as Paul said, then we must concluded that we, indeed, lived in the home of our Heavenly Fathter and Mother. But in John 14:2 we read that in the house of our Father there are many mansions, so it sounds plausible to consider the pre-mortal realm of spirits as a different place, where our Father and Mother, who own everything in the universe, would come and visit us. What do you think of that?

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18 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

Great observations. Thank you

Well, I`ve been thinking about children not living with their parents, especially when they are growing. If things of this Earth are in the likeness of the things which are heavenly, as Paul said, then we must concluded that we, indeed, lived in the home of our Heavenly Fathter and Mother. But in John 14:2 we read that in the house of our Father there are many mansions, so it sounds plausible to consider the pre-mortal realm of spirits as a different place, where our Father and Mother, who own everything in the universe, would come and visit us. What do you think of that?

That's bizzare. It's the "glory" of God that states what kingdom he is in. We lived with Him there. It was a Celestial glory.

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17 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

Great observations. Thank you

Well, I`ve been thinking about children not living with their parents, especially when they are growing. If things of this Earth are in the likeness of the things which are heavenly, as Paul said, then we must concluded that we, indeed, lived in the home of our Heavenly Fathter and Mother. But in John 14:2 we read that in the house of our Father there are many mansions, so it sounds plausible to consider the pre-mortal realm of spirits as a different place, where our Father and Mother, who own everything in the universe, would come and visit us. What do you think of that?

As nothing is canon, I will provide additional theory pertaining to mansions. If I were to liken many "mansions" pertaining to where God dwells now, I would first think upon our Celestial Kingdom. All who live on this earth that receive a Celestial glory will live on this earth once it has received its glory as the Celestial kingdom.

Then the theory I would propose is that the many mansions where God dwells currently are the individuals who also lived and received Celestial glory -- his brothers and sisters. Again, as not much is revealed about the Father, this is all theory.

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2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

As nothing is canon, I will provide additional theory pertaining to mansions. If I were to liken many "mansions" pertaining to where God dwells now, I would first think upon our Celestial Kingdom. All who live on this earth that receive a Celestial glory will live on this earth once it has received its glory as the Celestial kingdom.

Then the theory I would propose is that the many mansions where God dwells currently are the individuals who also lived and received Celestial glory -- his brothers and sisters. Again, as not much is revealed about the Father, this is all theory.

I have always taken "father's house" to mean the kingdom of heaven or Celestial kingdom.

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9 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

As nothing is canon, I will provide additional theory pertaining to mansions. If I were to liken many "mansions" pertaining to where God dwells now, I would first think upon our Celestial Kingdom. All who live on this earth that receive a Celestial glory will live on this earth once it has received its glory as the Celestial kingdom.

Then the theory I would propose is that the many mansions where God dwells currently are the individuals who also lived and received Celestial glory -- his brothers and sisters. Again, as not much is revealed about the Father, this is all theory.

 

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have always taken "father's house" to mean the kingdom of heaven or Celestial kingdom.

Well, "Father's houve" might mean much more than just the celestial kingdom, in my opinion. I mean, there are millions of kingdoms that are in different glories. In Moses 1 we read the Lord telling Moses how vast His dominion is. Anyhow, it's good to learn from you and to increase in knowledge

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4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

4)  We would have left the Pre-existence because we had reached the limit of our existence.  We could stay there as we were for the rest of eternity, always as children but never growing to our maturity, or we could strive to be like our Father.  As such, we would need to gain bodies and be tested to see whether we could/wanted to obtain the same glory as we saw with our eternal parent(s).  It is the natural way for children to grow and be like their parents.  This is why we left the Pre-existence, to grow up and become more like our Father and mature into our own right and degree of glory.

5) Why  not?  If the ideas about exaltation are correct and we are to have an eternal posterity...it would make sense that it would follow in the same pattern that was established for us.

Where will these baby spirit children live, and where will they grow until they too are ready to obtain physical bodies?

Well that works only if as you assume that the PW is the CK.

But if the PW is seperate from the CK it makes things different.

For example purposes only:  lets assume that my home is the PW for my children.  My wife and I maintain it for them and teach them.  The CK for me is my home town, the Universities I attended. The  hospital where I work, etc.

But they see me go off to work and occasionally I take my wife on vacations and leave them with baby sitters.  

My children learn lots but eventually want to leave the house so they can experience more, and become more like me.

They have to leave my home and experience life.  Get a real education.  Find a spouse. Learn a trade.  And eventually build a home of their own.  And start their own family.  

 

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