A possible different system of choosing

[The Folk Prophet]

52 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

How does being snide contribute to the discussion at hand?

How does not knowing what the scriptures say about the necessity of evil contribute to the discussion at hand?

[Traveler]

Since @askandanswer asked for opinions - I will offer mine.

I believe the Plan of Salvation is the most wonderful opportunity possible.  It is about agency and though agency has choice as an element - there is much more to agency that a mere choice.   Our will to choose good or evil is something within us and is unique to us.  Agency, on the other hand, is a most precious gift from G-d.  Though I am convinced that I do not comprehend all that agency employs I am impressed that my limited understanding transcends the simple expression that seems to encompass all that many seem willing to even consider.  In short, I think agency is much more involved and complex than any of us think and to define agency as choice is far to simplistic. 

I would say something about trials.  I do not think such a thing is like an exam in college by which some professor (G-d) is going to grade us (and this includes A, B, C, D or F and I don't think we get a pass or fail grade either).  Rather I see trials as and means and method for us to realize our progress.  A way for us to realize what is yet to be done.  I think that we humans tend to think we are ready for goodly G-dly things when we are still learning.  I believe that what is necessary to fail a trial, is not to submit to sin as many imply but rather to give up and quit - in essence committing yourself to be done trying.  I believe G-d is dedicated to teach us help us but only as long as we are willing to learn and do what we can.

We know from revelation that all laws from G-d are not the same.  Many laws are intended to be laws of preparation.  For example the Law of Moses was a preparatory law for the Law of the Gospel as given by Christ.  It is just, right and true that whatever obedience we obtain to any law that we justly receive the eternal benefits of that law.  So if one is obedient to telestial law but not obedient to terrestrial law - G-d would not be just and true if he with held the blessing of telestial law and cast such a person into outer darkness.  If there is justice then all must receive whatever eternal rewards they justly obtain by obedience.

 

The Traveler

[person0]

On 1/20/2019 at 6:40 PM, askandanswer said:

. . . is the existence of evil and a tempter still necessary?

Even without a different system, a devil/tempter is not necessary.  People choose wickedness on their own because of the inclinations of the natural man; the devil just tempts us more than we would already be tempted on our own.

On 1/20/2019 at 6:40 PM, askandanswer said:

What are the pros and cons of a system where the choices are between good better best as compared with a system where the choices are between good and evil?

I believe that this already exists.  We choose daily between evil, good, better, and best.  The rewards we receive are based on our choices.  If I choose to spend free time playing with my children, that is better than TV, but TV is not necessarily evil or bad.  If I spend free time studying my scriptures, that is a good thing.  We get rewarded in various ways for the choices; watching TV can be relaxing; playing with children can build relationships; studying scriptures builds knowledge and faith.  Good things always compete for our time.  My thoughts, anyway.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How does not knowing what the scriptures say about the necessity of evil contribute to the discussion at hand?

I would love to discuss but the time has passed, you slammed the door shut. You need to learn to speak with a more Christlike attitude. Take it positively, I'm trying to help you.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I would love to discuss but the time has passed, you slammed the door shut. You need to learn to speak with a more Christlike attitude. Take it positively, I'm trying to help you.

Thank you random internet guy who's been anxiously engaged in promoting that the church teaches false doctrine.

[wenglund]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have never bought into the belief that evil is required for there to be agency.

You evidently do't fully or correctly comprehend 2 Nephi 2, particularly verse 16.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

You evidently do't fully or correctly comprehend 2 Nephi 2, particularly verse 16.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

Well, there's certainly more to the story of Adam and Eve and Satan and the plan than we know. The important part is that laws exist and either rewards or punishment laying either way. 

Evil doesn't require evil to already exist for it to come into being to begin with. As such, righteousness doesn't depend on evil existing to come to pass.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Thank you random internet guy who's been anxiously engaged in promoting that the church teaches false doctrine.

Whatever, have a nice day.

[wenglund]

10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, there's certainly more to the story of Adam and Eve and Satan and the plan than we know. The important part is that laws exist and either rewards or punishment laying either way. 

Evil doesn't require evil to already exist for it to come into being to begin with. As such, righteousness doesn't depend on evil existing to come to pass.

More evidence to me that you lack comprehension., making it somewhat pointless to continue.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, wenglund said:

More evidence to me that you lack comprehension., making it somewhat pointless to continue.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yeah thanks for your continual condescending nature I don't really care to discuss it any further with you. Good day.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[wenglund]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah thanks for your continual condescending nature I don't really care to discuss it any further with you. Good day.

What may be viewed as condescending to the colossal ego will oft be viewed as cause for thoughtful consideration by the humble.

Good day to you as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

What may be viewed as condescending to the colossal ego will oft be viewed as cause for thoughtful consideration by the humble.

Good day to you as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Love you too.

[The Folk Prophet]

36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Whatever, have a nice day.

It's night. 

[Starwatcher]

On 1/20/2019 at 11:40 PM, askandanswer said:

Some questions occurred to me this morning about which I think it would be very helpful to get the thoughts of others.

At present, the Plan of Salvation is set up in such a way that progression and learning is linked to, when choosing between good and evil, the making of right choices, ie, choosing the right and rejecting the evil. This seems to be one of the main mechanisms for growth. Under the current arrangements, the necessity of, and ability to make such choices, is the, or maybe one of the, central elements of the whole plan. When thinking about this, this morning, the following questions came to mind.

How might things be different if, instead of being required to choose between good and evil, the range of choices was simply between good, better, best, or between good and more good?

I've wondered about this, too.  There seems to be two parts to the plan.

The first is this: choice between doing evil and not doing evil.  I.e. obeying the commandments or not obeying the commandments.  It is from this that we get the choice between accepting Christ and his Atonement  versus not doing so and suffering for our own sins.

The second is: choice between being valiant in the testimony of Jesus or not being valiant.  I.e. do we sit around on our salvational laurels, or do we get off our metaphorical duffs and actually work to further Father's work among His children.  And this involves the further obedience to higher laws and covenants, such as are given to us in the Temple.

If you carefully read DC 76 it seems that the population of the Telestial Kingdom ((DC 76:81-90)) will consist of those who refused to accept Christ as their Savior at any time (v.82: "These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.") and possibly those whose crimes put them beyond the reach of the Atonement (if that's possible), and all of these had to suffer for their own sins (v.84: "These are they who are thrust down to hell".)   

And that the Terrestrial Kingdom ((DC 76:71-80)) will consist of those who did accept Christ at some point and who received the saving ordinances (as a symbol of their acceptance), including those ("... who died without law; ...the spirits of men kept in prison ... who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. ... [the] honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men ... who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus")

Finally, the Celestial Kingdom ((DC 76:50-70)) will consist of those who both accepted Christ and obeyed Him, but who also went on to be valiant in the testimony of Jesus ("who are the church of the Firstborn ... into whose hands the Father has given all things ... who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory ... priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son ... they are gods, even the sons of God ... all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s ... And they shall overcome all things)

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Two thoughts:

1.  Evil always exists, even if only as a theory or in potential.  If exalted man is to be a truly independent actor, then the only way to avoid disastrous consequences on a cosmic scale is if he has been thoroughly trained in how to confront and eschew evil (not just “less-good”) in a venue where missteps have less-dire consequences.

2.  Regarding some of the discussion about what “Satan’s plan” was—the scriptures tell us Satan sought to destroy agency, not choice. The two concepts are closely related, but not identical. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[mikbone]

57 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Evil always exists, even if only as a theory or in potential.  If exalted man is to be a truly independent actor, then the only way to avoid disastrous consequences on a cosmic scale is if he has been thoroughly trained in how to confront and eschew evil (not just “less-good”) in a venue where missteps have less-dire consequences.

 

Totally agree...

Quote

Mortality is designed to condition us forever against rebellion.  ... The Lord wanted us to convince ourselves for all time that God's way is the safe, proven, reliable way, so that never, in all the eternities of the future, would we allow ourselves to be lured into rebelling against him as were a third of our brothers and sisters in the pre-mortal existence.  Earth life, therefore, was set up and designed to give us this opportunity of distinguishing through actual experience the difference between the bitterness of sin and rebellion and the sweetness of righteous obedience. (D&C 29:39)  The First 2,000 Years - W. Cleon Skousen, p. 33-34

Then there is this gem...

Quote

then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after Righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son thou shalt be exalted &c. When the Lord has thoro’ly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard, then the man will find his calling and Election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the xiv ch, from the 12th. to the 27th. verses— Note the 16. 17. 18. 21. 23. verses     "History, 1838–1856, volume C-1 [2 November 1838–31 July 1842] [addenda]," p. 9 [addenda], The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed February 2, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-2-november-1838-31-july-1842/544

And finally

Quote

Moses 5:57 For they would not hearken unto his voice, nor believe on his Only Begotten Son, even him whom he declared should come in the meridian of time, who was prepared from before the foundation of the world.

Ether 3:14  Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by mikbone

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

.  Regarding some of the discussion about what “Satan’s plan” was—the scriptures tell us Satan sought to destroy agency, not choice. The two concepts are closely related, but not identical

I agree that they are different. Agency is "the power of operation", it is "the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power". 

When viewed like this it helps with understanding. What is Satan trying to do? He seeks to destroy our God given ability to be in a state where we are acting and exerting power and authority. He succeeds in this when he tempts us and leads us into sin. Sin captivates the soul, chains it down. This is what is meant by Satan leading men into spiritual captivity and the "chains of hell". Satan's snare is the very chains of hell. It's only then that Satan has "power" over us and we lose our ability to act and exert our own power and authority.

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. (2 Nephi 1:13)

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12:11)

[Just_A_Guy]

8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree that they are different. Agency is "the power of operation", it is "the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power". 

When viewed like this it helps with understanding. What is Satan trying to do? He seeks to destroy our God given ability to be in a state where we are acting and exerting power and authority. He succeeds in this when he tempts us and leads us into sin. Sin captivates the soul, chains it down. This is what is meant by Satan leading men into spiritual captivity and the "chains of hell". Satan's snare is the very chains of hell. It's only then that Satan has "power" over us and we lose our ability to act and exert our own power and authority.

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. (2 Nephi 1:13)

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12:11)

It’s even more than that, I think.  Legally, “agency” describes a relationship where an “agent” acts on behalf of the “principal”, who is bound by whatever choices the agent makes.  Without that element of accountability for the agent’s actions, the relationship is not an agency relationship at all.  

Scripture clarifies that we are agents into ourselves.  In this paradigm, then, you can destroy agency *either* by taking away the ability to make meaningful choices, *OR* by giving the actor consequences (either good or bad) that have no relation to his or her own actual deeds.  I am inclined to think Lucifer’s original plan was more in-line with the second approach, because it so closely mirrors his minions’ arguments today—“whaddya mean, I gotta keep commandments?  Whaddya mean, hell and damnation are real?  A wuving god would never do THAT . . .”

Edited February 3, 2019 by Just_A_Guy