The Plan of Salvation and Axioms of Truth

[Rob Osborn]

Several recent topics have got me thinking again about truth and the plan. As was posted in an earlier post Elder Dallin H. Oaks spoke in our last conference and gave this talk and spoke about the truth and the plan in reference to both the plan of salvation and the Proclamation. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/truth-and-the-plan?lang=eng 

As I was reading and contemplating things this past weekend several words came manifest before my own understanding. Those words were "structure" and "axioms". These both relate to truth in the gospel. In his talk, something stuck out at me as not fitting into the structure of the plan of salvation nor did I see it as an axiom of truth. Here is the quote-

"The purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ is to qualify His children for the highest degree of glory, which is exaltation or eternal life. For those who do not desire or qualify for that, God has provided other, though lesser, kingdoms of glory.

Anyone who understands these eternal truths can understand why we members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints think as we do and do as we do."

I bolded the part that caused me to contemplate. And so I read what the Proclamation actually says, which is an axiom of truth. Here-

"..the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children...Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny...IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life."

As I read this I contemplated this truth regarding our destiny as heirs of eternal life. There is no part of Gods plan that doesnt produce this end result. I cant fathom the thought that someone could enter into His plan and at some point not "desire" what we came for and still find glory in the end. Thats like saying Gods plan isnt really to give eternal life to all his children he saves but rather save them in varrying degrees of complacency and laziness. We are taught another axiom of truth that all of Gods laws and ordinances are to both save us and grant us eternal life. Another axiom according to the structure of the plan is that families are "central" to the plan of salvation. Put into action, no man is saved unless he is saved into and with his family in eternity.

As I look over these axioms of our belief it helps me to understand the structure of the gospel and that when something is said contrary to one of these axioms we should not hold it as "truth". Truth is dependent on the entire structure and axioms that cannot be changed from the foundation of the world. It is my belief that no one who ends up saved from hell in the end has grown to desire a status short of godliness. Its basically saying "yes, we desire salvation at thy hand Lord, but do not desire to be obedient to thy commands." 

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Several recent topics have got me thinking again about truth and the plan. As was posted in an earlier post Elder Dallin H. Oaks spoke in our last conference and gave this talk and spoke about the truth and the plan in reference to both the plan of salvation and the Proclamation. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/truth-and-the-plan?lang=eng 

As I was reading and contemplating things this past weekend several words came manifest before my own understanding. Those words were "structure" and "axioms". These both relate to truth in the gospel. In his talk, something stuck out at me as not fitting into the structure of the plan of salvation nor did I see it as an axiom of truth. Here is the quote-

"The purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ is to qualify His children for the highest degree of glory, which is exaltation or eternal life. For those who do not desire or qualify for that, God has provided other, though lesser, kingdoms of glory.

Anyone who understands these eternal truths can understand why we members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints think as we do and do as we do."

I bolded the part that caused me to contemplate. And so I read what the Proclamation actually says, which is an axiom of truth. Here-

"..the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children...Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny...IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life."

As I read this I contemplated this truth regarding our destiny as heirs of eternal life. There is no part of Gods plan that doesnt produce this end result. I cant fathom the thought that someone could enter into His plan and at some point not "desire" what we came for and still find glory in the end. Thats like saying Gods plan isnt really to give eternal life to all his children he saves but rather save them in varrying degrees of complacency and laziness. We are taught another axiom of truth that all of Gods laws and ordinances are to both save us and grant us eternal life. Another axiom according to the structure of the plan is that families are "central" to the plan of salvation. Put into action, no man is saved unless he is saved into and with his family in eternity.

As I look over these axioms of our belief it helps me to understand the structure of the gospel and that when something is said contrary to one of these axioms we should not hold it as "truth". Truth is dependent on the entire structure and axioms that cannot be changed from the foundation of the world. It is my belief that no one who ends up saved from hell in the end has grown to desire a status short of godliness. Its basically saying "yes, we desire salvation at thy hand Lord, but do not desire to be obedient to thy commands." 

The most important single principle of G-d plan is Agency.  It was the principle of agency that caused the great war in heaven.  Because of Agency, G-d will not force any one into being or becoming anything.  Rather, Agency makes us "independent" in the sphere that we are placed.  The scripture describe a minimum of three eternal spheres greater than outer darkness each of which is governed by applicable laws suitable to that sphere.

I have often pondered that whatever "sphere" someone obtains and therefore placed; that it is quite possible that they will so believe they are better than those in "other spheres" - and so think they in error, that since they are not in a place they know to be lower - that they think they are in the heaven they envisioned appropriate for G-ds. 

 

The Traveler

Edited January 22, 2019 by Traveler

[mikbone]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

As I read this I contemplated this truth regarding our destiny as heirs of eternal life. There is no part of Gods plan that doesnt produce this end result. I cant fathom the thought that someone could enter into His plan and at some point not "desire" what we came for and still find glory in the end. Thats like saying Gods plan isnt really to give eternal life to all his children he saves but rather save them in varrying degrees of complacency and laziness. We are taught another axiom of truth that all of Gods laws and ordinances are to both save us and grant us eternal life. Another axiom according to the structure of the plan is that families are "central" to the plan of salvation. Put into action, no man is saved unless he is saved into and with his family in eternity.

As I look over these axioms of our belief it helps me to understand the structure of the gospel and that when something is said contrary to one of these axioms we should not hold it as "truth". Truth is dependent on the entire structure and axioms that cannot be changed from the foundation of the world. It is my belief that no one who ends up saved from hell in the end has grown to desire a status short of godliness. Its basically saying "yes, we desire salvation at thy hand Lord, but do not desire to be obedient to thy commands." 

When we were first produced as our Heavenly Parent's spirit children we began the pathway that led to Eternal Life.  But as we know, a third part of the premortal spirits decided to rebel against Heavenly Father's plan.  We don't know why they rebelled.  They had belief systems or personalities or prejudices that precluded them from following Jehovah.  People be crazy!  The homeless people on the street don't have to live that way, they choose to.  How many people are on the dole because it is easier to claim disability then go out and work a difficult job.  How many people choose to never have children because it is a cramp in their lifestyle.  

If you don't want to work and have a large family then the Celestial Kingdom is not for you.   And there are lots of people out there that want neither.  

Moses 1:39  For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

And I loved Dallin H. Oaks October 2018 talk - Truth and the Plan.  It is Core / Eternal Doctrine and an instant classic.  It was my favorite talk of the entire conference.  Other than the announcement of the 2 hour block.  

Edited January 22, 2019 by mikbone

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The most important single principle of G-d plan is Agency.  It was the principle of agency that caused the great war in heaven.  Because of Agency, G-d will not force any one into being or becoming anything.  Rather, Agency makes us "independent" in the sphere that we are placed.  The scripture describe a minimum of three eternal spheres greater than outer darkness each of which is governed by applicable laws suitable to that sphere.

I have often pondered that whatever "sphere" someone obtains and therefore placed; that it is quite possible that they will so believe they are better than those in "other spheres" - and so think they in error, that since they are not in a place they know to be lower - that they think they are in the heaven they envisioned appropriate for G-ds. 

 

The Traveler

The gospel is structured in a manner in which all the covenants depend on each other and lead naturally into the next higher, and so on. The first saving covenant we make, yea, the very gate is repentance and baptism and the covenant promise we make is to be obedient to all God commands us to do (speaking of futurity). Failure of this leads to a loss of salvation because it would mean we defy Christ.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

When we were first produced as our Heavenly Parent's spirit children we began the pathway that led to Eternal Life.  But as we know, a third part of the premortal spirits decided to rebel against Heavenly Father's plan.  We don't know why they rebelled.  They had belief systems or personalities or prejudices that precluded them from following Jehovah.  People be crazy!  The homeless people on the street don't have to live that way, they choose to.  How many people are on the dole because it is easier to claim disability then go out and work a difficult job.  How many people choose to never have children because it is a cramp in their lifestyle.  

If you don't want to work and have a large family then the Celestial Kingdom is not for you.   And there are lots of people out there that want neither.  

Moses 1:39  For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

And I loved Dallin H. Oaks October 2018 talk - Truth and the Plan.  It is Core / Eternal Doctrine and an instant classic.  It was my favorite talk of the entire conference.  Other than the announcement of the 2 hour block.  

I see it slightly different. A selfish person, unwilling to obey and work hard isn't even worthy of hire and until they change their outlook and heart don't merit salvation. The ticket is that people can change and most will.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

The gospel is structured in a manner in which all the covenants depend on each other and lead naturally into the next higher, and so on. The first saving covenant we make, yea, the very gate is repentance and baptism and the covenant promise we make is to be obedient to all God commands us to do (speaking of futurity). Failure of this leads to a loss of salvation because it would mean we defy Christ.

Are you obedient to all of G-d's commandments?

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

As I look over these axioms of our belief it helps me to understand the structure of the gospel and that when something is said contrary to one of these axioms we should not hold it as "truth". 

Let's cut to the chase.  Yes or no, when Elder Oaks said, " For those who do not desire or qualify for that, God has provided other, though lesser, kingdoms of glory,"  do you believe he was telling the truth?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I see it slightly different. A selfish person, unwilling to obey and work hard isn't even worthy of hire and until they change their outlook and heart don't merit salvation. The ticket is that people can change and most will.

Do you believe that Lucifer and his followers have the potential to change?  Do you believe that they have been damned? Or can they come to their senses and be redeemed?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Are you obedient to all of G-d's commandments?

 

The Traveler

Not yet, not yet, but in order to be saved I got to get there.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Let's cut to the chase.  Yes or no, when Elder Oaks said, " For those who do not desire or qualify for that, God has provided other, though lesser, kingdoms of glory,"  do you believe he was telling the truth?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No, I don't believe it's an eternal truth. I think it's a paradox. 

[Rob Osborn]

39 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Do you believe that Lucifer and his followers have the potential to change?  Do you believe that they have been damned? Or can they come to their senses and be redeemed?

I'm not sure what their ultimate fate is. For those who don't commit the unpardonable sin I believe that nothing is impossible from them changing.

[wenglund]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No, I don't believe it's an eternal truth. I think it's a paradox. 

I appreciate the candor.

However, I don't know about paradox, but I can certainly understand your dilemma (at least from my perspective).  Unlike with Elder Holland, where you are able to strain to shoehorn his quote to fit your outdated (in lieu of further light and knowledge) binary belief,  you now are in open defiance of another modern Apostle, if not a wealth of church material and mainstream belief,.

But, I suspect it isn't a dilemma for you given your infamous deferential trust in your own powers of interpretation. You actually think you know better. And that is the gist of this thread.

Good luck with that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I appreciate the candor.

However, I don't know about paradox, but I can certainly understand your dilemma (at least from my perspective).  Unlike with Elder Holland, where you are able to strain to shoehorn his quote to fit your outdated (in lieu of further light and knowledge) binary belief,  you now are in open defiance of another modern Apostle, if not a wealth of church material and mainstream belief,.

But, I suspect it isn't a dilemma for you given your infamous deferential trust in your own powers of interpretation. You actually think you know better. And that is the gist of this thread.

Good luck with that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well, if one understood the nature of repentance and baptism and the process of what happens there they would realize the paradox. It doesn't appear you want to discuss so I won't. Good day.

[Colirio]

 

That awkward moment when we have to shave off the parts we don't like in order to make something fit our own narrative... 

[wenglund]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, if one understood the nature of repentance and baptism and the process of what happens there they would realize the paradox. It doesn't appear you want to discuss so I won't. Good day.

If I thought you did understand, then I might give your assumed paradox some credence and be open to discussing.  But, I don't.

Good day to you as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

If I thought you did understand, then I might give your assumed paradox some credence and be open to discussing.  But, I don't.

Good day to you as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You really don't understand what the baptismal covenant means and it's part in the plan of salvation. If you did it's rather obvious why it's a paradox.

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You really don't understand what the baptismal covenant means and it's part in the plan of salvation. If you did it's rather obvious why it's a paradox.

Since I have already wished you good day, let me indirectly respond to your hallow echo with a good night.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

For those interested, read and pray over 2 Nephi ch. 31 to know this mystery.

[Guest]

On 1/21/2019 at 6:00 PM, Traveler said:

The most important single principle of G-d plan is Agency.  It was the principle of agency that caused the great war in heaven.  Because of Agency, G-d will not force any one into being or becoming anything.  Rather, Agency makes us "independent" in the sphere that we are placed.  The scripture describe a minimum of three eternal spheres greater than outer darkness each of which is governed by applicable laws suitable to that sphere.

I have often pondered that whatever "sphere" someone obtains and therefore placed; that it is quite possible that they will so believe they are better than those in "other spheres" - and so think they in error, that since they are not in a place they know to be lower - that they think they are in the heaven they envisioned appropriate for G-ds. 

 

The Traveler

In other words:  A cat is happy being a cat.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Guest

[Jersey Boy]

On 1/21/2019 at 11:44 PM, Rob Osborn said:

No, I don't believe it's an eternal truth. I think it's a paradox. 

All who inherit a habitation in one of the three kingdoms of post-resurrection glory will have to first bow the knee to God the Father and sincerely confess to him that Jesus is the Christ. But just because all will eventually confess to the Father that Christ is Savior doesn’t mean all will be found equally valiant in their testimonies of Jesus. For example, D&C 76 indicates the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom of glory will be those who had testimonies of Christ but were not valiant enough in their testimonies to be able to obtain resurrected celestial rebodies and inherit a fullness of glory in the celestial kingdom.  LDS soteriology 101.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

24 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

All who inherit a habitation in one of the three kingdoms of post-resurrection glory will have to first bow the knee to God the Father and sincerely confess to him that Jesus is the Christ. But just because all will eventually confess to the Father that Christ is Savior doesn’t mean all will be found equally valiant in their testimonies of Jesus. For example, D&C 76 indicates the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom of glory will be those who had testimonies of Christ but were not valiant enough in their testimonies to be able to obtain resurrected celestial rebodies and inherit a fullness of glory in the celestial kingdom.  LDS soteriology 101.

All who are saved will have to repent, be baptized and become holy without spot.

[Jersey Boy]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

All who are saved will have to repent, be baptized and become holy without spot.

All who inherit a dominion in any of the three kingdoms of post-resurrection glory will have to first be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. But being fully forgiven doesn’t necessarily correlate  with being perfect. There are several instances in the Doctrine and Covenants when the Lord himself declares that certain members of the Church had been forgiven, but it’s quite obvious that at that point they were not yet perfect.

Again, while I’m able to harmonize the Book of Mormon’s “lesser portion of the word” presentation of the plan of salvation with the Doctrine and Covenant’s more expansive presentation of the plan of salvation, you are not able to do so without constantly contradicting the testimonies of the past and living modern prophets. Do you think it’s a wise and good idea to come on boards like this one and constantly try to prove to other members of the Church that the apostles of the Lord are in error and don’t know what they’re talking about? You are on a obsessive fool’s errand.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

All who inherit a dominion in any of the three kingdoms of post-resurrection glory will have to first be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. But being fully forgiven doesn’t necessarily correlate  with being perfect. There are several instances in the Doctrine and Covenants when the Lord himself declares that certain members of the Church had been forgiven, but it’s quite obvious that at that point they were not yet perfect.

Again, while I’m able to harmonize the Book of Mormon’s “lesser portion of the word” presentation of the plan of salvation with the Doctrine and Covenant’s more expansive presentation of the plan of salvation, you are not able to do so without constantly contradicting the testimonies of the past and living modern prophets. Do you think it’s a wise and good idea to come on boards like this one and constantly try to prove to other members of the Church that the apostles of the Lord are in error don’t know what they’re talking about? You are on a obsessive fool’s errand.

In order to be saved we must repent of "all" of our sins and be forgiven by Christ of "all" of our sins. This is by definition of being "perfect" in regards to the plan of salvation. 

Over and over I have attempted to show this harmony of the gospel in all of scripture including the D&C. I don't think people really understand what it means and what it requires to really be saved from hell. It isn't merely repentance from all sins in word only. It requires a change of heart. To repent of all ones sins means a complete change of heart into godliness. Only this type of individual can be saved from hell. Christ will not save someone in their sins. And, if one is truly repentant in order to be saved it's because of their strict obedience to the law in following the Savior in all he commands. Our baptismal covenant isn't hinged off the idea that we are cleansed and saved by following mostly or partly what the Savior commands but rather in "all" that he commands. There will not be ungodly souls who get saved. It's about "becoming" like Christ in learning and following him in all things. Christ will not, neither cannot, save those who do not desire to follow Christ in all he commands.

I'm not foolish. The foolish and unwise follow the false belief that Christ will save those whose hearts are far from the desires of Christ and his commands.

[Traveler]

On 1/27/2019 at 6:10 AM, Carborendum said:

In other words:  A cat is happy being a cat.

I would put it this way - A cat is happy that they are not a mouse.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I would put it this way - A cat is happy that they are not a mouse.

You know.  I really like that variant.  I'm going to use that.