The Plan of Salvation and Axioms of Truth


Rob Osborn
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19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

In order to be saved we must repent of "all" of our sins and be forgiven by Christ of "all" of our sins. This is by definition of being "perfect" in regards to the plan of salvation. 

Over and over I have attempted to show this harmony of the gospel in all of scripture including the D&C. I don't think people really understand what it means and what it requires to really be saved from hell. It isn't merely repentance from all sins in word only. It requires a change of heart. To repent of all ones sins means a complete change of heart into godliness. Only this type of individual can be saved from hell. Christ will not save someone in their sins. And, if one is truly repentant in order to be saved it's because of their strict obedience to the law in following the Savior in all he commands. Our baptismal covenant isn't hinged off the idea that we are cleansed and saved by following mostly or partly what the Savior commands but rather in "all" that he commands. There will not be ungodly souls who get saved. It's about "becoming" like Christ in learning and following him in all things. Christ will not, neither cannot, save those who do not desire to follow Christ in all he commands.

I'm not foolish. The foolish and unwise follow the false belief that Christ will save those whose hearts are far from the desires of Christ and his commands.

Quick question - can you even remember all of you sins?  How can anybody be sure, in this life, that they have repented of "ALL" their sins?  and a side question - what happens if someone puts of repenting of a particular sin to when they are in the spirit world?

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Quick question - can you even remember all of you sins?  How can anybody be sure, in this life, that they have repented of "ALL" their sins?  and a side question - what happens if someone puts of repenting of a particular sin to when they are in the spirit world?

 

The Traveler

It's not possible to overcome all sins in this life. No one achieves perfection in their mortal life besides Christ. 

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21 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

In order to be saved we must repent of "all" of our sins and be forgiven by Christ of "all" of our sins. This is by definition of being "perfect" in regards to the plan of salvation. 

Over and over I have attempted to show this harmony of the gospel in all of scripture including the D&C. I don't think people really understand what it means and what it requires to really be saved from hell. It isn't merely repentance from all sins in word only. It requires a change of heart. To repent of all ones sins means a complete change of heart into godliness. Only this type of individual can be saved from hell. Christ will not save someone in their sins. And, if one is truly repentant in order to be saved it's because of their strict obedience to the law in following the Savior in all he commands. Our baptismal covenant isn't hinged off the idea that we are cleansed and saved by following mostly or partly what the Savior commands but rather in "all" that he commands. There will not be ungodly souls who get saved. It's about "becoming" like Christ in learning and following him in all things. Christ will not, neither cannot, save those who do not desire to follow Christ in all he commands.

I'm not foolish. The foolish and unwise follow the false belief that Christ will save those whose hearts are far from the desires of Christ and his commands.

I’m beginning to wonder if you aren’t actually an Evangelical who’s found a sneaky way to try to undermine the member’s trust in the teachings of the Church and the testimonies of the General Authorities? And why shouldn’t I begin to be suspicious, for you have shown over and over again that you have absolutely no hesitation to boldly contradict and declare as false the teachings of the living prophets, seers and revelators of the Church? 

At any rate, one a several things you appear to not be taking into consideration is the fact that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory have to first be compelled to be humble before they will finally be willing to demonstrate a genuine willingness to repent. Unlike father Abraham, who proactively sought redemption and exaltation with gratitude and joyful anticipation, the inheritors of the post-mortal telestial kingdom of glory are so stubborn and hardened in their sinful ways that only a lengthy sojourn suffering for their sins in hell will awaken them up to their absolute need for redemption through the of atonement Christ. 

This comparative willingness and unwillingness to repent matters to God, and he richly rewards those who are not compelled to be humble before they will exercise faith in Christ and repent..The more one needs to be compelled before he’s willing to repent the less will be his glory in the hereafter. This is why there are celestial, terrestrial and telestial resurrected bodies of varying degrees of glory. And God is just when he bestows the greater rewards upon those who repent willingly, out of gratitude and love,  rather than having to be compelled to be humble by suffering even as Christ suffered. What we’re talking about here is a direct cause and affect dynamic wherein God rewards those who diligently seek him of there own free will and choice, without having to be compelled through harsh and forceful action to make that choice. And so we read...

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

It’s perfectly obvious that the abover verses are speaking of the state of some of the children of men AFTER the resurrection.

A final thought: If you will simply say you believe that the above verses are doctrinally in error, I’ll stop challenging you and let you go on your merry way.

 

Edited by Jersey Boy
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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's not possible to overcome all sins in this life. No one achieves perfection in their mortal life besides Christ. 

Answered the wrong question - but I will ask another question - can sins be repented of in the next life (spirit world)?  or is this life the time to do such things?

 

The Traveler

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12 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

I’m beginning to wonder if you aren’t actually an Evangelical who’s found a sneaky way to try to undermine the member’s trust in the teachings of the Church and the testimonies of the General Authorities? And why shouldn’t I begin to be suspicious, for you have shown over and over again that you have absolutely no hesitation to boldly contradict and declare as false the teachings of the living prophets, seers and revelators of the Church? 

At any rate, one a several things you appear to not be taking into consideration is that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory have to first be compelled to be humble before they will finally be willing to demonstrate a genuine willingness to repent. Unlike father Abraham, who proactively sought redemption and exaltation with gratitude and joyful anticipation, the inheritors of the post-mortal telestial kingdom of glory are so stubborn and hardened in their sinful ways that only a lengthy sojourn suffering for their sins in hell will awake them up to their absolute need for redemption through the of atonement Christ. 

This comparative willingness and unwillingness to repent matters to God, and he richly rewards those who are not compelled to be humble before they will exercise faith in Christ and repent..The more one needs to be compelled before he’s willing to repent the less will be his glory in the hereafter. This is why there are celestial, terrestrial and telestial resurrected bodies of varying degrees of glory. And God is just when he bestows the greater rewards upon those who repent willingly, out of gratitude and love,  rather than having to be compelled to be humble by suffering even as Christ suffered. What we’re talking about here is a direct cause and affect dynamic wherein God rewards those who diligently seek him, of there own free will and choice, without having to be compelled through harsh and forceful action to make that choice. And so we read...

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

It’s perfectly obvious that the abover verses are speaking of the state of some of AFTER the resurrection.

A final thought: If you will simply say you believe the that above verses are doctrinally in error, I’ll stop challenging you and let you go on your merry way.

 

Only the sons of perdition will have to suffer like Christ did. The atonement covers all those he saves. Some may suffer in a small degree what Christ suffered but only those who are not forgiven and are cast out will suffer as did Christ. In the end its about who one becomes. And in order to be saved they must follow Christ in repenting of their sins, having faith in Jesus Christ and then follow him in his other commands which include the covenants of the temple. 

Verse 109 should be a clue to us that he is seeing a vision of our own world. The inhabitants are as innumerable as the sands upon the seashore. I wouldnt fain to believe that this innumerable mass is some wicked group destined to spend the millennium in hell. It just doesnt make sense. I think instead he isnt sure what he is seeing and in reality he is seeing our own world now and all of the inhabitants who are heirs to salvation. Look at the similarities-

30 aAbraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose bloins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the cstars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

We are speaking of the majority of the workds inhabitants.

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11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Answered the wrong question - but I will ask another question - can sins be repented of in the next life (spirit world)?  or is this life the time to do such things?

 

The Traveler

Of course sins can be repented of in the spirit world. Otherwise this scripture makes no sense-

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the aacceptable day of the Lord and proclaim bliberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would crepentof their sins and receive the gospel.

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41 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Answered the wrong question - but I will ask another question - can sins be repented of in the next life (spirit world)?  or is this life the time to do such things?

 

The Traveler

As we do work for the dead, undoubtably for some there will be the opportunity to receive the ordinances they would have received in this life were they able...but...

Alma 34 teaches us...

Quote

31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

 

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18 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

As we do work for the dead, undoubtably for some there will be the opportunity to receive the ordinances they would have received in this life were they able...but...

Alma 34 teaches us...

 

Much of the doctrine from the Book of Mormon was written by their prophets before Christ had came to the earth and was crucified, resurrected, and then opened the prison doors. As such, they also didn't have the doctrine revealed to them concerning the work for the dead. They assumed that the point of no return was death. Modern revelation teaches us otherwise. As taught in section 138 and in the PoGP, repentance and change is extended into the spirit world coupled with temple proxy work.

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On 1/21/2019 at 1:05 PM, Rob Osborn said:

 

As I read this I contemplated this truth regarding our destiny as heirs of eternal life. There is no part of Gods plan that doesnt produce this end result. I cant fathom the thought that someone could enter into His plan and at some point not "desire" what we came for and still find glory in the end.

A degree of glory is obtained by passing the first estate test which all of us have.  We expressed the desire then. In this life we have the choice to change that original desire to something more carnal and temporal during this life.   After everything is done, the second estate test is done and completed and all sins are accounted for, we enter into a degree of glory based in how well we remembered or regained our original desire despite the temporary distractions (temptations) of this life.   For example, the murderer who enters the Telestial Kingdom will not have the desire to murder once they enter into that degree of glory.   I guess it depends on how strong one thinks the atonement really is, does it really completely pay for all sins, 100%, or not?  Spirit prison is not an eternal state of being to my understanding.

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7 minutes ago, Fifthziff said:

A degree of glory is obtained by passing the first estate test which all of us have.  We expressed the desire then. In this life we have the choice to change that original desire to something more carnal and temporal during this life.   After everything is done, the second estate test is done and completed and all sins are accounted for, we enter into a degree of glory based in how well we remembered or regained our original desire despite the temporary distractions (temptations) of this life.   For example, the murderer who enters the Telestial Kingdom will not have the desire to murder once they enter into that degree of glory.   I guess it depends on how strong one thinks the atonement really is, does it really completely pay for all sins, 100%, or not?  Spirit prison is not an eternal state of being to my understanding.

Well, we are told that all those Christ saves are forgiven of all their sins through repentance. Speaking of desire at this point, if someone is completely forgiven because of repentance from all sin there is nothing left but godly desire.

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4 hours ago, Fifthziff said:

A degree of glory is obtained by passing the first estate test which all of us have.  We expressed the desire then. In this life we have the choice to change that original desire to something more carnal and temporal during this life.   After everything is done, the second estate test is done and completed and all sins are accounted for, we enter into a degree of glory based in how well we remembered or regained our original desire despite the temporary distractions (temptations) of this life.   For example, the murderer who enters the Telestial Kingdom will not have the desire to murder once they enter into that degree of glory.   I guess it depends on how strong one thinks the atonement really is, does it really completely pay for all sins, 100%, or not?  Spirit prison is not an eternal state of being to my understanding.

The atonement can pay for sins 100%, but the kingdom one inherits is not merely based upon having one's sins paid for.

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On 1/22/2019 at 2:05 PM, mikbone said:

Do you believe that Lucifer and his followers have the potential to change?  Do you believe that they have been damned? Or can they come to their senses and be redeemed?

They committed the unpardonable sin, so they cannot repent because Christ did not atone for that sin. Therefore they live forever in their sins, the ultimate sin of all.

I think that even if they could change, it wouldn't be worth it, because they cannot be redeemed. I believe some regret their choice. But ultimately their regret is in vain as it is to their own destruction and no avail.

Edited by Aaddaamm
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