The Hill Cumorah


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An actual publication from The Church regarding geography of Book of Mormon, "Though there are several plausible hypotheses regarding the geographic locations of Book of Mormon events, the Church takes no official position except that the events occurred in the Americas." (Source)

 

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The drumlin in New York is officially recognized by the church as being called the "Hill Cumorah".

And the temple closest to my home is called the Jordan River Temple, which could be construed as officially recognizing that nearby river as being called the "Jordan River". I don't think anybody would assume that means it's the same as the river Christ was baptized in.

Edited by SilentOne
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6 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

And the temple closest to my home is called the Jordan River Temple, which could be construed as officially recognizing that nearby river as being called the "Jordan River". I don't think anybody would assume that means it's the same as the river Christ was baptized in.

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Apples and oranges

I was just coming back to add that officially recognizing the name as being the same is not particularly strong evidence one way or the other.

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8 hours ago, SilentOne said:

I was just coming back to add that officially recognizing the name as being the same is not particularly strong evidence one way or the other.

Well, I am not sure SilentOne. I mean the garden of Eden was near the Tigris and Euphrates rivers which are located in the Mesopotamia region, but the garden of Eden was here upon the American continent, particularly North America. So it would seem strange if there were two rivers called Tigris and Euphrates. I mean there is no way there could be more than one region with the name "Bountiful".....sarcasm fully intended. ;) 

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3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

How about two Jerusalems?  Or even three?

Can't happen.  You'll notice that in our scriptures we have Jerusalem and New Jerusalem.  Totally different!

And good thing too.  Can you imagine the mayhem that would have occurred if the city had been named York, instead of New York--causing a catastrophic geological relocation, because there can't be a York on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.

Edited by MarginOfError
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6 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Can't happen.  You'll notice that in our scriptures we have Jerusalem and New Jerusalem.  Totally different!

And good thing too.  Can you imagine the mayhem that would have occurred if the city had been named York, instead of New York--causing a catastrophic geological relocation, because there can't be a York on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.

I guess that cuts out York, Pennsylvania then, dang!

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have always seen it as problematic that Moroni would bury The plates thousands of miles from where he had the rest of the repository was. Certainly Moroni wouldn't risk his life to transport the only set of plates thousands of miles into a territory he had no idea about.

probably because the repository is also in Cumorah in New York.

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10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have always seen it as problematic that Moroni would bury The plates thousands of miles from where he had the rest of the repository was. Certainly Moroni wouldn't risk his life to transport the only set of plates thousands of miles into a territory he had no idea about.

This is an extremely weak argument.  Pathetically so, in fact.

First, Moroni didn't need the entire repository.  Moroni's contribution was limited to

  • translating and abridging the plates of Ether. There were 24 of these.  It's entirely plausible he carried them with him.
  • the Book of Moroni. This includes a few letters from his father. But there's no reason to believe these letters were on anything other than paper.

Furthermore, even a light reading of Moroni's work will show that he doesn't make references to other sources. Contrary to Nephi's and Mormon's writings, which make frequent references to other references, Moroni appears to be working entirely independent of other sources (outside of Ether). 

This doesn't rule out the possibility of the repository being in New York, but it's pretty evident that even if he had access to it, he wasn't using it. So there isn't much need for him to stay close to it.

As for the second part of your argument, you could apply all sorts of game theory to this.  Moroni could have chosen to stay near the territories he was familiar with, which are teeming with people who would be more than happy to rob him, murder him, and melt down his plates for the gold.  In this scenario, he has to rely on his knowledge of the territory to hide from those who would kill him.  His other option is to run so far away that it isn't worth pursuing him.  If the event of the Book of Mormon were isolated to the southern part of Central America, escaping as far north as modern Mexico would be far enough to be as good as dead to his enemies. If Moroni's primary concern is preserving his life and the plates, that gets a lot easier to do if you go somewhere that nobody is looking for you.

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52 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

This is an extremely weak argument.  Pathetically so, in fact.

First, Moroni didn't need the entire repository.  Moroni's contribution was limited to

  • translating and abridging the plates of Ether. There were 24 of these.  It's entirely plausible he carried them with him.
  • the Book of Moroni. This includes a few letters from his father. But there's no reason to believe these letters were on anything other than paper.

Furthermore, even a light reading of Moroni's work will show that he doesn't make references to other sources. Contrary to Nephi's and Mormon's writings, which make frequent references to other references, Moroni appears to be working entirely independent of other sources (outside of Ether). 

This doesn't rule out the possibility of the repository being in New York, but it's pretty evident that even if he had access to it, he wasn't using it. So there isn't much need for him to stay close to it.

As for the second part of your argument, you could apply all sorts of game theory to this.  Moroni could have chosen to stay near the territories he was familiar with, which are teeming with people who would be more than happy to rob him, murder him, and melt down his plates for the gold.  In this scenario, he has to rely on his knowledge of the territory to hide from those who would kill him.  His other option is to run so far away that it isn't worth pursuing him.  If the event of the Book of Mormon were isolated to the southern part of Central America, escaping as far north as modern Mexico would be far enough to be as good as dead to his enemies. If Moroni's primary concern is preserving his life and the plates, that gets a lot easier to do if you go somewhere that nobody is looking for you.

Let's suppose for a minute that this "hill Cumorah", where the repository was, is somewhere in central America/ Mexico. Under this scenario Moroni continues and finishes the record oh his people and also abridges the record of the Jaredites. Not knowing how long his life is going to be preserved he then finishes it and then walks or transports them somehow a few thousand miles away and builds a stone or cement box in the hill in New York. That doesn't seem probable at all. Mormon entrusted Moroni only with the plates of Nephi. It is only after the great battle and Moroni having some space to write on that he gets the Jaredites record and abridges it. It sounds like to me that he is doing this in proximity to the repository where the rest of the plates are stored. But then he is still tasked with carrying them thousands of miles and burying them far far away. It just doesn't add up.

If I were Moroni I wouldnt take the risk of carrying the precious plates around thousands of miles from the area I knew. It's most probable that he stayed close to the repository until he finished the record and sealed it up in the earth. What better place than to just stay put because everyone that tried to escape were hunted down and killed. The last place the Lamanites are going to look is the very battlefields of the great final war. The plates are heavy. They aren't something you are just gonna strap on your back and go on a great walkabout for thousands of miles.

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8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Let's suppose for a minute that this "hill Cumorah", where the repository was, is somewhere in central America/ Mexico. Under this scenario Moroni continues and finishes the record oh his people and also abridges the record of the Jaredites. Not knowing how long his life is going to be preserved he then finishes it and then walks or transports them somehow a few thousand miles away and builds a stone or cement box in the hill in New York. That doesn't seem probable at all. Mormon entrusted Moroni only with the plates of Nephi. It is only after the great battle and Moroni having some space to write on that he gets the Jaredites record and abridges it. It sounds like to me that he is doing this in proximity to the repository where the rest of the plates are stored. But then he is still tasked with carrying them thousands of miles and burying them far far away. It just doesn't add up.

If I were Moroni I wouldnt take the risk of carrying the precious plates around thousands of miles from the area I knew. It's most probable that he stayed close to the repository until he finished the record and sealed it up in the earth. What better place than to just stay put because everyone that tried to escape were hunted down and killed. The last place the Lamanites are going to look is the very battlefields of the great final war. The plates are heavy. They aren't something you are just gonna strap on your back and go on a great walkabout for thousands of miles.

No, it is not "most probable." It is merely plausible.  But even that has some weird things to consider.  For instance, if the hill has this massive repository of records, why build a new box? Moroni writes in Moroni 1 that "they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ" and "wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life." These statements are not sufficiently descriptive enough to determine if he is wandering near the same place to keep access to the records, or if he has wandered far way to keep his distance and safety. Both hypotheses are plausible, and you can't put any kind of reliable probability on either of them.

And sure, the plates are heavy.  But the battle at Cumorah happened in 385 AD, and Moroni buried the plates THIRTY-FREAKING SIX years later!  In order to travel the 4,436 miles between the Panama Canal and Palmyra, you'd have to only cover an average of 0.4 miles per day.  I can cover about 8 - 10 miles per day carrying 50 pounds. With a pack animal, it isn't hard to cover that much with a much heavier load. 

So yeah, the two Cumorah theory is entirely plausible given the distances and time frames involved.

Also "If I were Moroni" is not a valid defense or argument.  You are demonstrably not Moroni, and so your thoughts and motivations are irrelevant.  What's relevant is the thoughts and processes of Moroni?  How did he evaluate the risk given his skills and ability.

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35 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

No, it is not "most probable." It is merely plausible.  But even that has some weird things to consider.  For instance, if the hill has this massive repository of records, why build a new box? Moroni writes in Moroni 1 that "they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ" and "wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life." These statements are not sufficiently descriptive enough to determine if he is wandering near the same place to keep access to the records, or if he has wandered far way to keep his distance and safety. Both hypotheses are plausible, and you can't put any kind of reliable probability on either of them.

And sure, the plates are heavy.  But the battle at Cumorah happened in 385 AD, and Moroni buried the plates THIRTY-FREAKING SIX years later!  In order to travel the 4,436 miles between the Panama Canal and Palmyra, you'd have to only cover an average of 0.4 miles per day.  I can cover about 8 - 10 miles per day carrying 50 pounds. With a pack animal, it isn't hard to cover that much with a much heavier load. 

So yeah, the two Cumorah theory is entirely plausible given the distances and time frames involved.

Also "If I were Moroni" is not a valid defense or argument.  You are demonstrably not Moroni, and so your thoughts and motivations are irrelevant.  What's relevant is the thoughts and processes of Moroni?  How did he evaluate the risk given his skills and ability.

I just think it's most probable that he buried the plates not far from the repository. He would have buried them separate for several reasons most of which for the safety and security of the prized record.

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56 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I just think it's most probable that he buried the plates not far from the repository. He would have buried them separate for several reasons most of which for the safety and security of the prized record.

Interestingly, those same reasons are equally compelling arguments for the Second Cumorah theory.  That is, equally probable.  (As are pretty much every argument you could make in favor of either theory)

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14 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Interestingly, those same reasons are equally compelling arguments for the Second Cumorah theory.  That is, equally probable.  (As are pretty much every argument you could make in favor of either theory)

Well, not really. The way I read it is that he was close to the records in his last writings as he had access to the plates to abridge the Jaredite record. I find it improbable that after he finished his writings he then wandered some thousands of miles away to bury them. 

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2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, not really. The way I read it is that he was close to the records in his last writings as he had access to the plates to abridge the Jaredite record. I find it improbable that after he finished his writings he then wandered some thousands of miles away to bury them. 

Unless, of course, he took the Jaredite plates with him. If these were of similar construction as the plates, adding them wouldn't be that much more of a burden, and we do know he took other things with him as well.

This is actually one of the weaker points of Two Cumorah theory.  If he took the Jaredite plates with him, why weren't they buried with the gold plates?  There are a few plausible explanations, including he discarded them after completing the abridgment, or they are part of the sealed portion of the plates.  

But again, the evidence available to us provides no indication to prefer one theory over another.

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2 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Unless, of course, he took the Jaredite plates with him. If these were of similar construction as the plates, adding them wouldn't be that much more of a burden, and we do know he took other things with him as well.

This is actually one of the weaker points of Two Cumorah theory.  If he took the Jaredite plates with him, why weren't they buried with the gold plates?  There are a few plausible explanations, including he discarded them after completing the abridgment, or they are part of the sealed portion of the plates.  

But again, the evidence available to us provides no indication to prefer one theory over another.

It just seems like a stretch. Meso-america models have the Nephites never traveling more than a couple hundred miles in their battles. So, here we have Moroni, traveling only a couple hundred miles all his life in a small geographical area and then suddenly he travels thousands of miles away to deposit plates in some far off foreign land? 

My personal opinion is that he had access to the repository during his final writings. He was given only the small plates by Mormon. So how did he acquire or access the other records to abridge and add to the entrusted plates? Well, by being in close proximity to the repository. It's doubtful he took both records thousands of miles away either.

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If we're adopting the Meso-American model for the bulk of the Book of Mormon events, it makes a whole lot more sense for Moroni to travel several thousand miles alone than it does for two entire civilizations to relocate themselves four thousand miles for a single, winner-take-all battle.

It just continually fascinates me how you this incredible ability to lay out all of the evidence supporting conclusion A, but always adopt conclusion B instead.

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If there is only one Cumorah, where would the narrow neck of land be where there is a sea on the east and west?  The only place I can think of is Chesapeake Bay and the Atlantic Ocean.

In Rob's defence though, none of the Book of Mormon Mesoamerican models fit either.   The geography in the Book of Mormon actually makes little sense no matter which model you use.

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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

If we're adopting the Meso-American model for the bulk of the Book of Mormon events, it makes a whole lot more sense for Moroni to travel several thousand miles alone than it does for two entire civilizations to relocate themselves four thousand miles for a single, winner-take-all battle.

It just continually fascinates me how you this incredible ability to lay out all of the evidence supporting conclusion A, but always adopt conclusion B instead.

Who said they were entirely relocating? 

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5 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

This is an extremely weak argument.  Pathetically so, in fact.

First, Moroni didn't need the entire repository.  Moroni's contribution was limited to

  • translating and abridging the plates of Ether. There were 24 of these.  It's entirely plausible he carried them with him.
  • the Book of Moroni. This includes a few letters from his father. But there's no reason to believe these letters were on anything other than paper.

Furthermore, even a light reading of Moroni's work will show that he doesn't make references to other sources. Contrary to Nephi's and Mormon's writings, which make frequent references to other references, Moroni appears to be working entirely independent of other sources (outside of Ether). 

This doesn't rule out the possibility of the repository being in New York, but it's pretty evident that even if he had access to it, he wasn't using it. So there isn't much need for him to stay close to it.

As for the second part of your argument, you could apply all sorts of game theory to this.  Moroni could have chosen to stay near the territories he was familiar with, which are teeming with people who would be more than happy to rob him, murder him, and melt down his plates for the gold.  In this scenario, he has to rely on his knowledge of the territory to hide from those who would kill him.  His other option is to run so far away that it isn't worth pursuing him.  If the event of the Book of Mormon were isolated to the southern part of Central America, escaping as far north as modern Mexico would be far enough to be as good as dead to his enemies. If Moroni's primary concern is preserving his life and the plates, that gets a lot easier to do if you go somewhere that nobody is looking for you.

However, if the battles did take place in the great lakes area, it is possible that Moroni was able to remain hidden long enough that the Lamanites then returned far south to home, leaving him basically alone up north. Remember, the Nephites had been on the run to the north in order to escape their enemies. Just a thought on my part. 

Also, it is very possible that the Nephites went to New York because they had fortifications there that Mormon and his father had prepared years before the final battles. Basically, "lets build up the area where all our records are stored so we can protect them and ourselves." Also they may have had the records all the way up there in order to keep them safe from the Lamanites and at the end all the plans fell apart and forced their collective retreat.

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