Why I’m not Going to Miss Scouting

[Third Hour]

The other day I received a text from a concerned friend regarding new church policies for youth. Her concern was that now young men would be asked to stand up and be recognized in January of the year they turn 12, 14, and 16, but young women no longer will. She is right, there is a problem, but it is not an equality/ recognition problem. The problem is that a young man standing to be sustained is viewed as a recognition, when really, it is to agree or disagree with the bishop’s discernment that the boy is spiritually worthy of ordination (much like the sustaining of any other calling). The fact that it is perceived as recognition is one of the unfortunate flaws of our collective church culture. Scout Culture vs Church Culture One of the largest culprits for this emphasis on achievement and recognition is the implicit influence of Scouting on the Church. Scouting is about what marketing experts call, Leveling Up, Badges, and Quests. It works well in limited...

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[anatess2]

Another article that talks about Boy Scouts and forgot the part about BOY in Scouting.  This is not about Scout culture... this is about making a program geared towards BOYS.  And the predominant trait of Boys that separate them from Girls is innate aggression that is directed towards good works through achieving purposeful objectives.  This is completely different from Spiritual Callings and Ordinations which is not something you Achieve but something you get Called Upon.  Every single Boy should know that.  If they don't know that, then their Bishopric and their YM leaders failed them.

Edited January 29, 2019 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

So much more enlightened than the prophets and apostles who've supported scouting all these decades. What fools they were. 

[Vort]

I don't hate the article, but I'm unconvinced by it. It says a lot of things I agree with, but in the end it misses the point.

I do not dislike competition "as much as the next guy". I dislike it a great deal more. I consider the spirit of competition to be nothing more than the spirit of pridefulness. Many of my most painful childhood memories revolve around competition, and not just when I was on the short end of the stick. Competition drove me to treat my fellow man (children), including my own siblings, in decidedly non-Christlike ways. I eventually rooted the disease of competitive instinct mostly out of my soul. Today, though I am not wholly untouched by competitive feelings, I can honestly say that I rarely feel competitive. (Ironically, online conversation is the one situation where the ugly old feelings of competitive fires still smolder.)

Competition is not about being excellent. Competition is ever and only about being better than the other guy. If I play the worst-ever-in-my-life game of basketball, but I win, then I'm a winner. It's the definition of the word. It's not my excellence that is rewarded, because in this case there was none; rather, it's the fact that the other guy was even worse than me.

Having said all that, feelings of competition, which are mostly bad, arise out of the same root as drives to excel, which are often good. They both come from a desire to accomplish something. This is what Scouting (at its best) is about: Not competing, but accomplishing. You don't have to beat the other guy to get a merit badge; you just have to earn the merit badge. At its best, Scouting is not about competition, except perhaps in a friendly (note the word) and supportive way, where the competition serves as a pretext for social interaction.

I think the author misses the mark in the article, though he lands a few grenades in the general area. The problem is not that Scouting is intrinsically wrong-headed, either because of competition or because of some other thing. The problem is that Scouting (especially as it's being administered today) doesn't sufficiently help our sons become the kind of men we need them to become.

I don't see the point in dancing on Scouting's grave and singing hallelujahs to its demise in the Church. It served the Church for a hundred years, and did much good in that time. It's still doing good in many areas, and will continue to do so through the remainder of this year (and perhaps throughout the lives of many young men who were involved). Celebrating Scouting's demise is not merely impolitic, it's wrong-headed. That kind of attitude, one that looks hard at the program and blames it for our shortcomings, will simply propagate the same attitude for failure onto whatever comes next.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I dislike it a great deal more. I consider the spirit of competition to be nothing more than the spirit of pridefulness.

Just curious, do you think BYU should do away with sports?   Not arguing, just asking. 

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Just curious, do you think BYU should do away with sports?   Not arguing, just asking. 

No, primarily because the Board of Trustees sees value in it, and I trust them. I do actually follow and enjoy BYU sports, but I'm long past the fanatic stage. And I admit that I do see a lot of very bad actions, often by BYU's opponents and occasionally by BYU players, that makes me ashamed for those who act like that. So I'm of two minds. But as long as the BOT sees fit to continue BYU sports, I will support the effort.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

No, primarily because the Board of Trustees sees value in it, and I trust them. I do actually follow and enjoy BYU sports, but I'm long past the fanatic stage. And I admit that I do see a lot of very bad actions, often by BYU's opponents and occasionally by BYU players, that makes me ashamed for those who act like that. So I'm of two minds. But as long as the BOT sees fit to continue BYU sports, I will support the effort.

I understand. 

Since you seem to have a problem with competition I assume that if you went out for a job and it was between you and one other person, you'd immediately ask the employer to give the job to the other guy? Or am I misunderstanding your point? 

[Grunt]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't hate the article, but I'm unconvinced by it. It says a lot of things I agree with, but in the end it misses the point.

I do not dislike competition "as much as the next guy". I dislike it a great deal more. I consider the spirit of competition to be nothing more than the spirit of pridefulness. Many of my most painful childhood memories revolve around competition, and not just when I was on the short end of the stick. Competition drove me to treat my fellow man (children), including my own siblings, in decidedly non-Christlike ways. I eventually rooted the disease of competitive instinct mostly out of my soul. Today, though I am not wholly untouched by competitive feelings, I can honestly say that I rarely feel competitive. (Ironically, online conversation is the one situation where the ugly old feelings of competitive fires still smolder.)

Competition is not about being excellent. Competition is ever and only about being better than the other guy. If I play the worst-ever-in-my-life game of basketball, but I win, then I'm a winner. It's the definition of the word. It's not my excellence that is rewarded, because in this case there was none; rather, it's the fact that the other guy was even worse than me.

Having said all that, feelings of competition, which are mostly bad, arise out of the same root as drives to excel, which are often good. They both come from a desire to accomplish something. This is what Scouting (at its best) is about: Not competing, but accomplishing. You don't have to beat the other guy to get a merit badge; you just have to earn the merit badge. At its best, Scouting is not about competition, except perhaps in a friendly (note the word) and supportive way, where the competition serves as a pretext for social interaction.

I think the author misses the mark in the article, though he lands a few grenades in the general area. The problem is not that Scouting is intrinsically wrong-headed, either because of competition or because of some other thing. The problem is that Scouting (especially as it's being administered today) doesn't sufficiently help our sons become the kind of men we need them to become.

I don't see the point in dancing on Scouting's grave and singing hallelujahs to its demise in the Church. It served the Church for a hundred years, and did much good in that time. It's still doing good in many areas, and will continue to do so through the remainder of this year (and perhaps throughout the lives of many young men who were involved). Celebrating Scouting's demise is not merely impolitic, it's wrong-headed. That kind of attitude, one that looks hard at the program and blames it for our shortcomings, will simply propagate the same attitude for failure onto whatever comes next.

I love competition.  I can't walk up stairs without competing with the old lady holding me up.  My kids compete in everything from peeing distance to pinning each other at the bus stop.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I understand. 

Since you seem to have a problem with competition I assume that if you went out for a job and it was between you and one other person, you'd immediately ask the employer to give the job to the other guy? Or am I misunderstanding your point? 

Not at all. I'm not an idiot. On the other hand, if I got a job over someone who was obviously better qualified, I would feel like something wrong had been done.

Do you believe there is competition before God? Do you believe that Jesus ever said, "I'm gonna beat that sucker if it's the last thing I do!"? Can you imagine Christ striving for the mastery over his brother or sister so that he can stand at the top of the awards podium? I do not believe in any of those scenarios. I think they are anti-God and opposite the way we have been taught to treat and think of our fellow man.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Not at all. I'm not an idiot.

No, in fact I think you are incredibly bright. Like I've said many times on here, I admire you. 

What I'm struggling with though (because I'm not as smart as you are)-is that you think competition is apparently based on pride, which is sort of sinful. But if you personally can benefit from competition in some way like my job scenario, it's sort of okay?  

Edited January 29, 2019 by MormonGator

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

No, in fact I think you are incredibly bright. Like I've said many times on here, I admire you. 

What I'm struggling with though (because I'm not as smart as you are)-is that you think competition is apparently based on pride, which is sort of sinful. But if you personally can benefit from competition in some way like my job scenario, it's sort of okay?  

The law of unintended consequences bites my back end once again.

This is a telestial world. It functions on the "law of the jungle", also called Darwinianism: The most fit survive. Competition is an effort to find the "most fit". That is the way of this world. When there are finite resources, you must look out for your own. It's the ugly truth. I see no evil in providing for your own, even if some of your benefit is unavoidably at the expense of others. This does not justify economic slavery or wages of pennies a day for things made in east Asian sweat shops, but it does mean that you're competing with others in your field, and you have to find some way to bring in business that would otherwise go elsewhere.

My point is that the world is wicked, not that you're wicked for living in it. My point is that God's way is higher than the telestial nightmare around us, where babies get eaten and the most savage wolf is the one that prospers. I don't want to be a savage wolf. I don't think I would be a very good one, but even if I were, I want something better. I want to love my brothers and sisters, not fight with them. I want to have lots of them, and maybe make more people my siblings by adoption. I want us to work together to build something great, something awesome, something beyond any one of us but within the grasp of all of us if we but work together. I'm trying to become fit to live in such a society. That's really all I'm saying when I bad-mouth competition.

By the way, based on our conversations over the years, I think you're plenty smart. I suspect you know that, though.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Vort

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

The law of unintended consequences bites my back end once again.

This is a telestial world. It functions on the "law of the jungle", also called Darwinianism: The most fit survive. Competition is an effort to find the "most fit". That is the way of this world. When there are finite resources, you must look out for your own. It's the ugly truth. I see no evil is providing for your own, even if some of your benefit is unavoidably at the expense of others. This does not justify economic slavery or wages of pennies a day for things made in east Asian sweat shops, but it does mean that you're competing with others in your field, and you have to find some way to bring in business that would otherwise go elsewhere.

 My point is that the world is wicked, not that you're wicked for living in it. My point is that God's way is higher than the telestial nightmare around us, where babies get eaten and the most savage wolf is the one that prospers. I don't want to be a savage wolf. I don't think I would be a very good one, but even if I were, I want something better. I want to love my brothers and sisters, not fight with them. I want to have lots of them, and maybe make more people by siblings. I want us to work together to build something great, something awesome, something beyond any one of us but within the grasp of all of us if we but work together. I'm trying to become fit to live in such a society. That's really all I'm saying when I bad-mouth competition.

By the way, based on our conversations over the years, I think you're plenty smart. I suspect you know that, though.

I understand. Thank you for the compliment, and for clarifying what you meant. 

I'm good at Tae Kwan Do (not really, but I'm using it as an example). I love competing against others in it. It becomes sinful when I think "I'm a better man than Mike is because I can beat him in Tae Kwan Do." It's totally fine if I say "Because I've worked hard and went to class and sacrificed look what I've achieved." 

In fairness, I think we pick and choose what rules to follow and how to apply them. I'm sure LDS are not supposed to have anger in their heart towards their brothers/sisters in faith-but um, that rule gets ignored when we leave the parking lot after church and someone cuts us off. It gets ignored on online forums too. 😉