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1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Yes we are different - I have thought pride is in part accepting (expecting) things other have worked for.  But I have learned - for me - the hard part of pride is comparing myself to others to justify myself.

 

The Traveler

Yet you just compared my dad to you.

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Is that why you do it?  Because you got blessings out of it?  Is that why you give to Fast Offerings?  So you can have blessings from it?  Is that what you think of those people availing of Fast Offerings?  People who owe you?

THAT'S MESSED UP.

"Because I have been given much - I too MUST give".

 

The Traveler

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6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

"Because I have been given much - I too MUST give".

 

The Traveler

Traveler... you used the word PAY.  You used the word FREEBIE.  "I too MUST give" is not PAYMENT.  It definitely isn't a freebie if what you give is too miniscule to be enough to PAY for what you receive.  The widow gave a mite.  She doesn't owe more because that's all she gave even if the Church ended up feeding her for the rest of her life.

What you got messed up is the idea of "TAKING ADVANTAGE".  The widow paying a mite is not necessarily taking advantage of the Church feeding her for the rest of her life.  She gave all she had.

Edited by anatess2
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Just now, anatess2 said:

Yet you just compared my dad to you.

Yes I did - and I wondered how you would react to my background and what I was taught.  You are right it is pride that makes it difficult for me to accept a gift.  But I was interested - your father would go over receipts at a store to make sure everything was exact - that also looks like pride.  

I do appreciate your open and honest responses.  I am sorry if you are offended by my efforts to understand what I thought was an inconsistency.   It is also interesting to me how our backgrounds shape our points of view.  So I thank you for this discussion. 

 

The Traveler

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6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

@zil would smack you around for not appreciating Dante.  Right, zil?  Right?

Haven't read this thread.  Just as Bruce R. McConkie knows nothing about the seven deadly sins, I know nothing1 about Dante (nor his presumed relation to these sins).

1Nothing that can't be heard / seen in popular culture.  Dante's Inferno?  Levels of hell, maybe?  Abandon all hope..., maybe?  (Could be those came from somewhere else.  Not sure.  Too lazy to go look it up.)

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1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Yes I did - and I wondered how you would react to my background and what I was taught.  You are right it is pride that makes it difficult for me to accept a gift.  But I was interested - your father would go over receipts at a store to make sure everything was exact - that also looks like pride.  

I do appreciate your open and honest responses.  I am sorry if you are offended by my efforts to understand what I thought was an inconsistency.   It is also interesting to me how our backgrounds shape our points of view.  So I thank you for this discussion. 

 

The Traveler

Here's my  honest reaction to your background.  Either you were taught wrong or you interpreted the lesson wrong.  You thought being Self-Sufficient means you stifle Charity.  You thought a person whose eyes light up to blessed by Charity is being dishonest because he expects something for nothing.  A person like my Dad whose Charity is boundless is dishonest because he is excited to be the recipient of it.

My father would go over receipts at a store is PRIDE?  Seriously, dude?  Somebody who checks to make sure that he didn't get cheated is prideful?  Surely, you jest. 

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Aaaaaanyway…

Dating services, when legit, really do serve a valuable purpose.  My son met his wife (Temple married) on one.  He just didn't run in social circles where there were many options to meet ladies.  His ward apparently wasn't a good place to look, his job wasn't a good place, and his social circle was all guys and gaming.  

The problem is for every legitimate one, there's a metric ton of scam sites. 

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7 minutes ago, zil said:

Haven't read this thread.  Just as Bruce R. McConkie knows nothing about the seven deadly sins, I know nothing1 about Dante (nor his presumed relation to these sins).

1Nothing that can't be heard / seen in popular culture.  Dante's Inferno?  Levels of hell, maybe?  Abandon all hope..., maybe?  (Could be those came from somewhere else.  Not sure.  Too lazy to go look it up.)

Ahhhh!!!  What????  Divine Comedy is not required reading for all literary students?  What???  I got cheated!  I had to read the darned thing!  Ok ok... I actually had to read it for Religious Ed class. 

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21 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Here's my  honest reaction to your background.  Either you were taught wrong or you interpreted the lesson wrong.  You thought being Self-Sufficient means you stifle Charity.  You thought a person whose eyes light up to blessed by Charity is being dishonest because he expects something for nothing.  A person like my Dad whose Charity is boundless is dishonest because he is excited to be the recipient of it.

My father would go over receipts at a store is PRIDE?  Seriously, dude?  Somebody who checks to make sure that he didn't get cheated is prideful?  Surely, you jest. 

This is so interesting to meet someone so sure about how they were raised.  And yet it is so different than mine.  My father was adamant that there were three things necessary for a “Honest” business exchange or purchase – in this order.

First – Deal with someone you trust – that you know treats everyone honestly (which means the same) – including those that have been dishonest with them.  Avoid those that give friends and family, special deals.  Every deal should be as open, honest and as loving and kind as the next.  Never deal with someone that expects or insists on bribes, kickbacks or special treatment.

Two – Insist on the very best product and service available.  This plays back in part with #1.  If you are dealing with someone that will deal with inferior products or service – do not trust them.  They must believe that they offer the best product and best service.  If they do not – they cannot be trusted.  As a side note – you believe you represent the very best possible family product.  To me this is not necessarily pride – but it could be.  I thought to test you when you accused something different as pride.

Three – that last thing you ever concerns yourself with is the price.  If the other two fall in line – you do not have to check the receipt before leaving the store.

 

I will tell you a short story about my father.  I use to work for him in my youth and I came to him one day because a gentleman had cheated him – it was about a $3,000 loss.  I had all the proof – actually the FBI was also involved and if we acted quickly and got a court order we could recover about half the loss.  My father refused and ended up with a complete loss.  Needless to say – I was disappointed with my father.  I tried to argue with him that the loss was not necessary and he should have acted.  It was 5 years later my father brought me a letter.  The FBI had caught the fellow and he had gone to prison.  The letter was from this guy with a check for $1,000.  He said he would pay more if the check did not cover my father’s loss.  There were other things in the letter about my father.  Then dad asked me what I now thought he should do.  I replied that he cash the check and send back $400 saying the debt was paid – the man has obviously paid the debt with value greater than money.

 

I will say something else about paying debts and obligations.  I was quite surprised to hear such negative things from you concerning this matter.  Paying off a debt or obligation can be as great an act of love and compassion as anything one can do – especially when responding to someone like G-d that forgives us our debts and ask nothing in return for what he does.  One can pay their obligations and debts – that is what we do when we walk the first mile.  But paying off our debts and obligations when it is not required or when others call it pride – and doing it because you love, cherish and do so as an act of charity and honor – is going the extra mile.

 

The Traveler

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11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

This is so interesting to meet someone so sure about how they were raised.  And yet it is so different than mine.  My father was adamant that there were three things necessary for a “Honest” business exchange or purchase – in this order.

First – Deal with someone you trust – that you know treats everyone honestly (which means the same) – including those that have been dishonest with them.  Avoid those that give friends and family, special deals.  Every deal should be as open, honest and as loving and kind as the next.  Never deal with someone that expects or insists on bribes, kickbacks or special treatment.

Two – Insist on the very best product and service available.  This plays back in part with #1.  If you are dealing with someone that will deal with inferior products or service – do not trust them.  They must believe that they offer the best product and best service.  If they do not – they cannot be trusted.  As a side note – you believe you represent the very best possible family product.  To me this is not necessarily pride – but it could be.  I thought to test you when you accused something different as pride.

Three – that last thing you ever concerns yourself with is the price.  If the other two fall in line – you do not have to check the receipt before leaving the store.

 

I will tell you a short story about my father.  I use to work for him in my youth and I came to him one day because a gentleman had cheated him – it was about a $3,000 loss.  I had all the proof – actually the FBI was also involved and if we acted quickly and got a court order we could recover about half the loss.  My father refused and ended up with a complete loss.  Needless to say – I was disappointed with my father.  I tried to argue with him that the loss was not necessary and he should have acted.  It was 5 years later my father brought me a letter.  The FBI had caught the fellow and he had gone to prison.  The letter was from this guy with a check for $1,000.  He said he would pay more if the check did not cover my father’s loss.  There were other things in the letter about my father.  Then dad asked me what I now thought he should do.  I replied that he cash the check and send back $400 saying the debt was paid – the man has obviously paid the debt with value greater than money.

 

I will say something else about paying debts and obligations.  I was quite surprised to hear such negative things from you concerning this matter.  Paying off a debt or obligation can be as great an act of love and compassion as anything one can do – especially when responding to someone like G-d that forgives us our debts and ask nothing in return for what he does.  One can pay their obligations and debts – that is what we do when we walk the first mile.  But paying off our debts and obligations when it is not required or when others call it pride – and doing it because you love, cherish and do so as an act of charity and honor – is going the extra mile.

 

The Traveler

This is not about paying debts and obligations.  You keep on missing that point.  CHARITY is not a DEBT to be PAID.  Thinking that everytime you are a recipient of Charity you now have Debt that you have to Pay is WRONG.  It makes your Charity meaningless.  Because, it makes it that you Give to pay something back instead of Giving because you Love. 

Edited by anatess2
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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is not about PAYING DEBTS AND OBLIGATIONS.  You keep on missing that point.  CHARITY is not a DEBT to be PAID.

 

Certainly not paying or refusing to pay a debt should never be thought to be an act of charity.  Can you explain why paying a debt cannot be an act of charity - pure love?

Another question - is charity an obligation? for righteousness?

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Certainly not paying or refusing to pay a debt should never be thought to be an act of charity.  Can you explain why paying a debt cannot be an act of charity - pure love?

 

The Traveler

WHOOSH right over your head.

Paying a debt is not Charity.  It's a debt you owe.  Not paying it is dishonesty.  Paying it is honesty.  You don't have to love someone to pay back that debt.  As a matter of fact, people pay debts back because they are afraid of going to jail or getting called out as dishonest, not necessarily because they have the ability to pay the debt back.

Charity is not a debt.  That's why you don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing so your left hand won't ask for payment on that Charity.  If you treat every Charity that you receive as a debt you owe, then your own charity becomes meaningless.  Because, then you are only doing it to pay something you think you owe instead of doing Charity out of love.

The difference between Charity and Debt:  Charity is Free.  Debt is a contract.  If you have to pay Charity back, it's not Charity anymore - you attached a contract on that Charity.

Paying for your groceries is not Charity - it's a contract.  The grocer promised to give you items, you promised to pay for it.  That's your contract.  Grocer gives you an empty box, he is cheating.  You go out the store without paying, you are cheating.

Offering to buy someone's grocery is Charity.  You gave it, the deed is done.  Nothing has to follow.  The person who received the groceries do not have to pay it back.  He can die tomorrow and know his spiritual bank is not depleted.  Say a month later you ended up in the poor house.  So you ask the guy who you gave groceries to for help.  He doesn't.  You now then whine and moan because... "I can't believe I helped that guy and he couldn't even be bothered to help me back!  What a dishonest person he is!  I'll never help that guy again!".. you would be sinning.

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7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

WHOOSH right over your head.

Paying a debt is not Charity.  It's a debt you owe.  Not paying it is dishonesty.  Paying it is honesty.  You don't have to love someone to pay back that debt.  As a matter of fact, people pay debts back because they are afraid of going to jail or getting called out as dishonest, not necessarily because they have the ability to pay the debt back.

Charity is not a debt.  That's why you don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing so your left hand won't ask for payment on that Charity.  If you treat every Charity that you receive as a debt you owe, then your own charity becomes meaningless.  Because, then you are only doing it to pay something you think you owe instead of doing Charity out of love.

The difference between Charity and Debt:  Charity is Free.  Debt is a contract.  If you have to pay Charity back, it's not Charity anymore - you attached a contract on that Charity.

Is G-d charitable by covenant?  Did not Christ fulfill his calling (obligation) as an act of charity?  I agree that doing something just because you are forced to - is not an act of charity.   I do not see how being faithful to one's covenants (obligations) with love and compassion is not an act of Charity?  Can you not see that difference?

 

The Traveler

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16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Is G-d charitable by covenant?  Did not Christ fulfill his calling (obligation) as an act of charity?  I agree that doing something just because you are forced to - is not an act of charity.   I do not see how being faithful to one's covenants (obligations) with love and compassion is not an act of Charity?  Can you not see that difference?

 

The Traveler

I edited my above post to add more detail.

God is Charitable with or without covenant.  The Covenant is not Charity.  It's a Covenant.  Not abiding by the covenants you made is a sin.  Not abiding by covenants when you haven't made one is not a sin.  The Plan of Salvation - the Atonement - is Charity.  There is NO WAY you can pay that back.  NO WAY.  The Atonement is not a debt you now owe to God otherwise, He takes it back.  It is Free for ALL.

In the same manner, your Charity to others is not a debt others will have to pay.  If it is not Free, it is not Charity.  And if you feel you HAVE TO pay back what you received as Charity... then you basically just made that Charitable action meaningless.

Now, I know exactly where your thinking comes from.  You're thinking Welfare.  Receiving Welfare and not working to pay it back... etc. etc.  Government Welfare is not Charity.  Or another example - relying on others to prop you up when you have the ability to do so yourself.  The problem there is not Charity.  The problem is laziness.

Edited by anatess2
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On 2/8/2019 at 10:06 AM, anatess2 said:

I edited my above post to add more detail.

God is Charitable with or without covenant.  The Covenant is not Charity.  It's a Covenant.  Not abiding by the covenants you made is a sin.  Not abiding by covenants when you haven't made one is not a sin.  The Plan of Salvation - the Atonement - is Charity.  There is NO WAY you can pay that back.  NO WAY.  The Atonement is not a debt you now owe to God otherwise, He takes it back.  It is Free for ALL.

In the same manner, your Charity to others is not a debt others will have to pay.  If it is not Free, it is not Charity.  And if you feel you HAVE TO pay back what you received as Charity... then you basically just made that Charitable action meaningless.

Now, I know exactly where your thinking comes from.  You're thinking Welfare.  Receiving Welfare and not working to pay it back... etc. etc.  Government Welfare is not Charity.  Or another example - relying on others to prop you up when you have the ability to do so yourself.  The problem there is not Charity.  The problem is laziness.

See if I understand you correctly - You are contending (saying) that we have an obligation (or debt) to do things that are not obligations or debts?

Also - why do you think G-d will do anything without a covenant.  I believe Jesus says he did nothing but he was commanded by his Father.  Are we not told that even G-d is obligated (bound) by those that keep (obedient to) the commandments?

 

The Traveler

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16 hours ago, Traveler said:

See if I understand you correctly - You are contending (saying) that we have an obligation (or debt) to do things that are not obligations or debts?

So, let's say... you made a promise to your mother that you're going to hold your little brother's hand while he gets vaccinated.  Do you have a debt to your little brother?  You do not.  You don't have a debt to your mother either.  You obligated yourself to your mother because you made that promise.

 

Quote

Also - why do you think G-d will do anything without a covenant.  I believe Jesus says he did nothing but he was commanded by his Father.  Are we not told that even G-d is obligated (bound) by those that keep (obedient to) the commandments?

Obligation and Debt are not interchangeable in context in the same manner that Work and Job are not interchangeable in context.

 

Edited by anatess2
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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, let's say... you made a promise to your mother that you're going to hold your little brother's hand while he gets vaccinated.  Do you have a debt to your little brother?  You do not.  You don't have a debt to your mother either.  You obligated yourself to your mother because you made that promise.

 

Obligation and Debt are not interchangeable in context in the same manner that Work and Job are not interchangeable in context.

 

I must see things very differently than you - to me obligations and debts are 100% interchangeable.  I believe my upbringing was much like the prophet Joseph Smith.  If I promised to stay inside a chalk line I am more obligated and have a debt to stay much more than if I am place there by someone else behind iron bars and armed guards.   What I promise is much more of a debt than any outside attempt for me to believe or think otherwise. 

As a parent in Zion I have an obligation and debt to G-d to raise his precious children to whom I have been entrusted and obligated to serve - because of covenants and promises made previously.

But I also must admit to playing with your mind a little - I agree with a lot you have said.  But I believe we act as obligation and debt - either to the world or to G-d - likewise with promise.  Then as we agreed to debt and obligation we come into this life and struggle to complete be worthy to those we owe so much and so greatly.

 

The Traveler

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